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Author Topic: High note articulation  (Read 3062 times)
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HoldenWelch007
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« on: Aug 10, 2017, 01:36PM »

Hi guys I've been playing trombone for almost 3 years now and I've really been expanding my range and flexibility. I've had successful progress, I feel, when it comes to accuracy with high register notes, but I sometimes feel as if my articulation isn't as clear. Has anyone had a problem like this before and if so how did you go about dealing with it. I practice fundamentals  thoroughly everyday, and I'm sure with further development it will clear up. I was just curious if there are any syllables out there that might make it easier.

To clarify. The high register I'm talking about is up to the D four ledger lines above bass clef staff. More specifically in the B flat partial. Thanks guys
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BGuttman
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« Reply #1 on: Aug 10, 2017, 01:43PM »

The Tee (Dee, Hee, whatever) often helps.  It shrinks the oral cavity to better resonate the upper register.

If you have the Hunsberger version of the Remington Warmup Exercises he expands on the "Security in the Upper Register" exercise to help with notes up to the F above your D (Remington stopped at Bb 4 lines above the bass clef).
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HoldenWelch007
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« Reply #2 on: Aug 10, 2017, 02:27PM »

Alright thanks! I don't have that book but will definitely look into getting it👍🏻
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« Reply #3 on: Aug 10, 2017, 05:26PM »

I'm just the dad of a young student...but I have recently gone through a very long experience purchasing a new horn for my son and getting the proper mouthpiece for it....which we have finally done. 

I have noticed that the size of the mouthpiece he uses has a giant impact on how cleanly he can articulate the high notes.  What size mouthpiece do you use?  And what is the bore of your horn?
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« Reply #4 on: Aug 10, 2017, 06:21PM »

There are many books,methods that will help with all kinds of development.(My favorites at the moment are the Michael Davis books available at many website stores and at his website, Hip-Bone Music.com . The important thing is to start slowly and give yourself time to develop.Very few players are such naturals that there are not at least a few bumps along the way.

Good Luck!

Bob Riddle
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« Reply #5 on: Aug 11, 2017, 04:47PM »

I like to play the note after a lower note to practice hitting the pitch. I can hit pretty high on a chromatic scale, but it's harder to switch from low to high when it's unfamiliar. I know this isn't exactly what you were asking, but I've learned that being more familiar with a note helps strengthen the muscles around your mouth, making it easier to articulate notes. I don't know - this is just my opinion.
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« Reply #6 on: Aug 11, 2017, 04:52PM »

I like to play the note after a lower note to practice hitting the pitch. I can hit pretty high on a chromatic scale, but it's harder to switch from low to high when it's unfamiliar. I know this isn't exactly what you were asking, but I've learned that being more familiar with a note helps strengthen the muscles around your mouth, making it easier to articulate notes. I don't know - this is just my opinion.

If I get the gist of your post, it is a little easier for me to hit intervals squarely on if I can sing the notes in my head as I am playing them.

And I guess I didn't! lol

...Geezer
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sabutin

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« Reply #7 on: Aug 11, 2017, 07:06PM »

Hi guys I've been playing trombone for almost 3 years now and I've really been expanding my range and flexibility. I've had successful progress, I feel, when it comes to accuracy with high register notes, but I sometimes feel as if my articulation isn't as clear. Has anyone had a problem like this before and if so how did you go about dealing with it. I practice fundamentals  thoroughly everyday, and I'm sure with further development it will clear up. I was just curious if there are any syllables out there that might make it easier.

To clarify. The high register I'm talking about is up to the D four ledger lines above bass clef staff. More specifically in the B flat partial. Thanks guys

The tongue has many functions...especially in the higher ranges. It is hard...if not nearly impossible...to use the tongue as both an articulation device and as an air stream-directing device in the altissimo ranges.

Sorry, but there it is...

It's a different world above C# in the 10th partial.

It can be done, but at what expense to the lower ranges?

S.
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« Reply #8 on: Aug 14, 2017, 01:07PM »

(https://www.researchgate.net/publication/264517131_Trumpet_Playing_3D_Tongue_Motion_Analysis_Performing_Science)

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Tim Richardson
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« Reply #9 on: Aug 14, 2017, 04:19PM »

I wonder if the shape of the individuals upper palate is a major factor. I never heard of the idea of tongue shaping to aid the higher tones before reading about it on this forum.  Since then I've experimented with arching the tongue and it's not benefitted me in any way. But, I do drop my tongue to aid the production of the lower tones, that is, until I reach a lower break around low G.

I use lip trills from 6 up 2nd or 1st position (avoiding Ab in 1st), starting with C to F in 6th as my higher note maintenance. It's aperture and air for me..
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« Reply #10 on: Aug 14, 2017, 04:41PM »

I agree. That pedagogical concept drove me nuts a while until I reasoned that beyond a certain point, the tongue is arched up as much as it can be and no further arching is possible. And yet, there are still higher notes to be hit, so there is yet another level of technique to apply on top of it all.

Besides that, if the tongue is used on the attack and even if the attack it up at the upper teeth gum level, the tongue isn't arched as much as possible to start off a high note. So there is a pedagogical gap in simply stating "arch your tongue for high notes". Maybe that is just a beginner's meme that takes them up to, say G or so above the staff. After that, it's another ball game and a lot of players figure it out - in time.

...Geezer
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« Reply #11 on: Aug 15, 2017, 06:45PM »

You can also try a tongue forward position in the upper register .Placing the tongue wherever you normally attack the note.Hold the tongue in that forward position and begin to articulate quarter notes.You will find the force of the air aids in the attack( when the tongue is placed at the base of the top teeth).When the tongue is placed against the bottom teeth and held there,a different thing happens for most players.The attack begins to occur from the top of the tongue (some people call this dorsal tonguing).The thing I notice is with the tongue in a more forward position there seems for me to be far less effort in the middle to upper register.It does take a little bit of time to develop speed ,but once this is practiced most students find their tonguing speed and accuracy increases.
 This just another approach.One that works quite well for me.YMMV.
Bob Riddle
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« Reply #12 on: Aug 15, 2017, 10:09PM »

Yes Bob, that is exactly how it works for me too. I say dorsal tonguing. :)
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« Reply #13 on: Aug 16, 2017, 05:29AM »

Strangely, I can hit a clean  on all three of my horns, but can't get either the E or the Eb between that and the  . It's weird. No amount of experimentation has brought me any closer to hitting those two pitches as cleanly as the high C, D or F+.

Odd.  :cry:

You can get good clean E in a b3rd position and an Eb in a b1st. Also above the Eb is an in tune Gb, and in a b2nd above a D thereís an F. The D and the F in b2nd was in common usage back in the day, this may just be a small bore thing?



It's a different world above C# in the 10th partial.

S.

I think that there is a kind of logical sequence going on, it just that it hasnít much to do with the Bb one..
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« Reply #14 on: Aug 16, 2017, 10:08AM »

You can get good clean E in a b3rd position and an Eb in a b1st. Also above the Eb is an in tune Gb, and in a b2nd above a D thereís an F. The D and the F in b2nd was in common usage back in the day, this may just be a small bore thing?

I think of them as flat positions a 1/2 step lower than do you, myself. Why? Because that way they are more in place with the natural overtone system on the horn. For example...if you go up the partials from say 4th partial G in 4th position, it's B, D, a quite flat F, G, A, B, a sharp C, and a D. (Roughly speaking, of course. Every horn/m'pce setup is slightly different.) In a "musical" sense, it is much easier to hear the next four partials above the 12th partial D as "E, F, F# and G," and in point of fact when singing the 8th through 16th partials using overtone singing, that's exactly how they sound. Like one of the supposed "bebop scales," a major scale w/a #6/b7 added. Like G A B C D E E#/F F# G.

Just sayin'...

Quote
I think that there is a kind of logical sequence going on, it just that it hasnít much to do with the Bb one..

I am coming to much the same conclusion, Pre59. I beginning to think the various "breaks" that aren't completely in line with the Bb harmonic series are dictated by a combination of:

1-One's own physiognomy, include the resonance chambers of the chest and throat/mouth. (Very adjustable, this soft machine. Learning harmonic singing will teach you that. Quickly.)

and

2-The harmonic tendencies of the mouthpiece. If you take about 98% of all of the common (and even not so common) tenor and bass tbn. m'pces...at least the 100+ that I own...place the rim so that it is airtight on your palm and blow over the receiver as if it is a transverse flute or a bottle, you will almost invariably get an E7-ish/F7-ish note. (Maybe a tinch lower or higher, but not often.) That is...a note 3 octaves higher than 8th partial F/E on the horn. That is the mouthpiece's "pedal" tone...the lowest note that the it can produce with no input other than transverse air. It is not likely a coincidence that the most troublesome ranges for most tromboneists are somewhere around 2nd partial F/E, 4th partial F/E, 6th partial F/E and 12 partial F/E. I say that they are troublesome because they are the most common places where...in my own experience and for the many students that I have taught...we run into unconscious "shifting" mechanisms in order to be able to traverse through them in both directions. The shifts begin to come a little lower or higher, but the problems start there because they are naturally very resonant notes on the m'pce. The further away ones gets from them...in either direction...the less the m'pce likes it. We play the trombone so far below that range that as far as the m'pce is concerned all the notes we play are "fake" tones. Like the notes below the pedal range on a trombone, they don't lock very well, so it is relatively easy to play any note that you want to play on the m'pce. The horn provides the centering, provides the partials.

Once one begins to understand the three "logical sequences" involved...the horn's harmonic system, the individual body's harmonic system and the harmonic system of the m'pce...then begins a whole new way of understanding what is going on.

Bet on it.

I'm just getting there myself. A little late after 40+ years of trying to figure it out, but...what the hell. I do keep trying.

Check it out yourself.

Later...

S.
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« Reply #15 on: Aug 16, 2017, 10:56AM »

Sam, I get what your saying, but re my positions, I've just practiced them until they work and I'm pretty sure that my nomenclature is correct with my set-up. The high D and the F I got through observation of others playing it, and the E in flat 3rd I found by trial and error because I couldn't find a stable one elsewhere. Having got a clear high F in (my) b2nd, the logical place for the F Sharp was just a small shift upwards, as was the shifting up from the D to get the Eb.

I haven't spent any time on G yet..

I'm just getting there myself. A little late after 40+ years of trying to figure it out, but...what the hell. I do keep trying. S.

Me to, I've just turned 65 and am keener than ever to crack this Tbn thing..
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« Reply #16 on: Aug 16, 2017, 12:21PM »

Sam, I get what your saying, but re my positions, I've just practiced them until they work and I'm pretty sure that my nomenclature is correct with my set-up. The high D and the F I got through observation of others playing it, and the E in flat 3rd I found by trial and error because I couldn't find a stable one elsewhere. Having got a clear high F in (my) b2nd, the logical place for the F Sharp was just a small shift upwards, as was the shifting up from the D to get the Eb.

I haven't spent any time on G yet..

I'm just getting there myself. A little late after 40+ years of trying to figure it out, but...what the hell. I do keep trying. S.

Me to, I've just turned 65 and am keener than ever to crack this Tbn thing..

I dunno...I have found these positions by slurring up from secure notes below in a given position and moving the slide until they feel right, then using those positions in performance. I have found them also to be in accord with the overtone series that I can sing (as overtones...in just intonation rather than equal temperment, of course) up past the 16th partial.

Try this, if you want to see what I mean. Play a good 8th partial G in 4th position, and then slur (no tongue after the initial attack) up through the A and B to the next partial...pretty much guaranteed to be a #C. Move the slide down until it's in tune. Then repeat that process...playing the C in the position that you found...to the D. Then do it again, only this time play the next partial above that D. It's liable to be almost smack dab between an E and an Eb. Closer to the E on most horns. I choose to use...to think of... that note as an E in #4 because it is in tune with the overtone series as it appears in overtone singing above a given note. This gives a good F in #3, a good F3 in #2 and...if you play extended positions, as I do...a fairly usable G in #1.

Now...every great high range trombonist that I have ever known groused about the 12th partial E. Their most common solution was to play in it the next higher partial...#4...where it is much more stable. That also gives a good F and F# in he same partial. Experiment through the ensuing partials. What I have found doing this...and trying to move the slide as little as possible because the partials are so close up there that excessive slide movement tends to jostle the notes towards adjacent partials..is that once you get above that 13th partial it's all pretty much chromatic until the overtones turn into microtones and then...if you can play the notes...positions do not much matter above the 16th partial. The F#5, F5 and E5 are the tricky notes, and since the consensus is that E is the trickiest one (Thank you, Dave Steinmeyer)...again no coincidence if F7-ish/E7-ish notes are the m'pce's "pedal" range...then wherever you find that E, the chromatic notes above it should be in roughly the same partials or at least the same general position in higher partials.

On my best high range horn/m'pce, I personally play the F5 in either 1st pos./12th partial or #3rd/13th partial. I try to always play the E5 in #4th/13th partial, the F#5 almost always either in #2nd pos./13th partial or #3rd position/14th partial (Pretty much the same position as an octave down in 7th partial.), the G5 in either close to 3rd position (maybe a little higher) in 15th partial or in 14th partial #2 (Again, pretty much the same as as 7thg partial an octave down, and after that the stuff is so close that I'm not really particular, although I do tend to stay in 2nd position from there on up.

So far.

Now...I am by no means some kind of high range specialist. I personally put my horns and m'pces together to play well in the main ranges, and I have found that doing so somewhat limits their "lockability" in ranges above about F. So it goes. I mostly use these notes when soloing, most often as an effect or closing note. However, having played with people like Dave Steinmeyer, Britt Woodman, Urbie Green and Bill Watrous...and having kept my ears open and asked questions while I was with them...I've learned a couple of things.

As always...just trying to share.

Use it in good health.

Later...

S.

P.S. A quick word about Eb5. The 2nd pos./11th partial is almost invariably the best place for it, as is the 3rd pos./11th partial for the D5 because it's usually way flat in 10th partial/1st position. However, getting from that 2nd pos./11th partial Eb5 to the E5 above it in #4 is quite difficult. Too much slide motion up there, at least for me. Eb5 is usually lousy in the 12th partial, too. It's never easy up there unless you have specialized in it in terms of both equipment and embouchure/blow. Have fun...

Just sayin'...sometimes you have to bite the bullet and play the E5 in 12th partial/2nd position.

Usually it bites me back.

Sigh...
 
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« Reply #17 on: Aug 16, 2017, 02:50PM »

This is one of those band room topics, easy to demonstrate, difficult to explain in print, well for me anyway. But you're right, it's that "E" that's the important note.

I would never describe myself as a high note specialist, and I've moved to a larger m/p to open out the mid-lower areas of my range, playing out from the 3rd position*, which is something that we discussed in the past.


(*The written tbn solo in Little Brown Jug gets interesting around the chromatic phrase on bar 5-8, when played using pos 4 and 5. But that's going off topic..)
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« Reply #18 on: Aug 16, 2017, 06:31PM »

Try setting that "tongue arch" way back for low notes.  Then let it move like a wave toward the front as you move up.  By the time C in 13th partial comes up, the crest of the wave is way forward.  What happens after G?  HeckifIknow. 

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« Reply #19 on: Aug 17, 2017, 05:49AM »

 
What happens after G?  HeckifIknow. 


Have just checked on my setup and, I got a slotted G, G sharp and A in 3rd.
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« Reply #20 on: Aug 17, 2017, 08:49AM »

Have just checked on my setup and, I got a slotted G, G sharp and A in 3rd.

"Slotted?" To the point of being able to use slide vibrato on them? If so, your equipment is very good up there.

Question:

When you play a 12th partial Eb in 3rd position. the G, G#/A and A are to be expected...they are the 15th, 16th and...something resembling...the 17th partials. (After the 16th partials the overtone series turns into quarter tones.) Are there not an F of some sort and an F# above that Eb before you get to the G? There are on all of my horns, and that is the way the overtone series with Ab1 (Pedal Ab) as its fundamental.

S.
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« Reply #21 on: Aug 17, 2017, 11:13AM »

"Slotted?" To the point of being able to use slide vibrato on them? If so, your equipment is very good up there.

Question:

When you play a 12th partial Eb in 3rd position. the G, G#/A and A are to be expected...they are the 15th, 16th and...something resembling...the 17th partials. (After the 16th partials the overtone series turns into quarter tones.) Are there not an F of some sort and an F# above that Eb before you get to the G? There are on all of my horns, and that is the way the overtone series with Ab1 (Pedal Ab) as its fundamental.

S.

Well, slotted as in that there's a clear difference between the notes, but vibrato? I doubt it.

Is there not an F of some sort and an F# above that Eb before you get to the G? S

I didn't look for it because I already have a good one using a b2nd above the D. There's a short run of minor third intervals in this Partial, and using flat positions I've got.. !st Eb-Gb, 2nd D-F, 3rd C sharp-E. That's the E that I've mentioned.

I'm glad that in theory the these notes are where they "should" be, but I don't know how much value that they have, though apart from offering some note options for people who's horns have suspect or missing notes, like my Bach 12 with its dodgy Bb in 3rd.
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« Reply #22 on: Aug 17, 2017, 01:23PM »

I fear this thread has strayed somewhat beyond the typical "beginner and returning trombonist"  Amazed :D
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« Reply #23 on: Aug 17, 2017, 01:34PM »

I fear this thread has strayed somewhat beyond the typical "beginner and returning trombonist"  Amazed :D

Or there are some extremely gifted "returners"!  Amazed

Being one of the "extremely gifted returners", I find this thread and the responses so far to be very interesting.  :D

...Geezer
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« Reply #24 on: Aug 17, 2017, 01:51PM »

Well, slotted as in that there's a clear difference between the notes, but vibrato? I doubt it.

Is there not an F of some sort and an F# above that Eb before you get to the G? S

I didn't look for it because I already have a good one using a b2nd above the D. There's a short run of minor third intervals in this Partial, and using flat positions I've got.. !st Eb-Gb, 2nd D-F, 3rd C sharp-E. That's the E that I've mentioned.

I'm glad that in theory the these notes are where they "should" be, but I don't know how much value that they have, though apart from offering some note options for people who's horns have suspect or missing notes, like my Bach 12 with its dodgy Bb in 3rd.


First comes theory when you are not sure of things.

Then comes practice, followed by knowledge.

Sometimes "theory" is wrong. That's where practice comes in. And if in that practice you find that "theory" proves out, then you have knowledge that can be used when...or if...it is needed. You also gain know;ledge if theory does not prove out.

As far as "slots" are concerned...they are all pretty soft slots up there, I believe. I haven't played Dave Steinmeyer's equipment in a long, long while, but I believe he once said to me something about working on equipment to try to firm up those slots to the point where a slide vibrato could be used.

Makes sense to me...

S.
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« Reply #25 on: Aug 17, 2017, 02:25PM »

I went looking unsuccessfully for a link to Milt Bernhart's version of the solo in Sinatra's "I've Got You Under My Skin". It's the version where the soloist tongues 16th notes on a high F#  . I think it is by far the best version of this solo, although I did find many other versions on youtube and dailymotion.

As I started to work on my high register, I was asked: "If you are using your tongue to increase air speed, how are going to use it for articulation?" So I stopped using my tongue for things other than articulation. The tongue is a shortcut for high notes, and depending on how serious you get, it will take you a while to unlearn doing this. It took me some time.
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« Reply #26 on: Aug 17, 2017, 03:14PM »

Sam, My use of the word theory is a result of your posts above, and the confirmation that I was in the right area. The 17th partial is not a phrase that Iíve ever read about let alone used until now.

I found that the 10 or so minutes that I spent practicing these tones today unsettled my embouchure a little, and Iím going to be stopping around the high G in 3rd, which will help insure the tones below.

As a sideline, Iíve found that a good way to revive a discombobulated lip is to clean your teeth with cold water, but no tooth paste. An electric brush is better..
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« Reply #27 on: Aug 17, 2017, 03:21PM »

I went looking unsuccessfully for a link to Milt Bernhart's version of the solo in Sinatra's "I've Got You Under My Skin". It's the version where the soloist tongues 16th notes on a high F#  . I think it is by far the best version of this solo, although I did find many other versions on youtube and dailymotion.


As I understand it, Frank Sinatra re-recorded a lot of his Capitol output went he started his own label, Reprise. The version that you're looking for is not from the original "Songs For Swinging Lovers" album on Capital, but a re-recording, try the Reprise version.
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« Reply #28 on: Aug 17, 2017, 03:25PM »

As I understand it, Frank Sinatra re-recorded a lot of his Capitol output went he started his own label, Reprise. The version that you're looking for is not from the original "Songs For Swinging Lovers" album on Capital, but a re-recording, try the Reprise version.

Actually, I have the version I'm referring to on a CD. I found the Reprise version online, but that wasn't what I what I was trying to find. If you know to what I'm referring, please post the link. Thanks.
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« Reply #29 on: Aug 17, 2017, 03:27PM »

I fear this thread has strayed somewhat beyond the typical "beginner and returning trombonist"  Amazed :D

Well, OP started talking about high D. Maybe we could be exceptionally clement because the contributions are REALLY cool.   Good!
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« Reply #30 on: Aug 18, 2017, 06:00AM »

As an Europe I am a child of Palmer Traulsen/Anton Hansen/Paul Weschke, who is the foundation of trombone playng in Scandinavia, I have another nomeclature for the 11th partial. Db 3 1/3, D 2 1/3, Eb 1 1/3, and the 13th partial E 3 1/3, F 2 1/3, G# 1 1/3. 15th partial G 3, Ab 2, A 1,
Slotting? Oh well....

Somtimes in modern nomeclature the 3 1/3 is written 3+ sometimes 3- That is funny, the + means that you add to the slide  lenght, the - means to
 lower the pitch, sometimes the same position is written #4 or b3.
Paul Weschke just thought the slide positions where closer the the upper positionss.
I case a G4 to D5 would be like #2 to b2.

Slotting the G5 is hard, but for me the pos 3 is the best. Higher that is just like wisthling for me, any slidepositions will do alike.

I am not suggesting that any of the above, or Sams nomeclarure is wrong or right, there are different ways to say the same thing. 
My self I prefewr to say 3.5, (that is the same as #4 or b3 or 3 1/3)
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« Reply #31 on: Aug 18, 2017, 10:53AM »

As an Europe I am a child of Palmer Traulsen/Anton Hansen/Paul Weschke, who is the foundation of trombone playng in Scandinavia, I have another nomeclature for the 11th partial. Db 3 1/3, D 2 1/3, Eb 1 1/3, and the 13th partial E 3 1/3, F 2 1/3, G# 1 1/3. 15th partial G 3, Ab 2, A 1,
Slotting? Oh well....

Somtimes in modern nomeclature the 3 1/3 is written 3+ sometimes 3- That is funny, the + means that you add to the slide  lenght, the - means to
 lower the pitch, sometimes the same position is written #4 or b3.
Paul Weschke just thought the slide positions where closer the the upper positionss.
I case a G4 to D5 would be like #2 to b2.

Slotting the G5 is hard, but for me the pos 3 is the best. Higher that is just like wisthling for me, any slidepositions will do alike.

I am not suggesting that any of the above, or Sams nomeclarure is wrong or right, there are different ways to say the same thing. 
My self I prefewr to say 3.5, (that is the same as #4 or b3 or 3 1/3)

Sven...

I prefer the + and - indications, only because these things vary so much on different horns.

When it's in tune with the consistently best sound? That's where it is on the slide.

S.
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« Reply #32 on: Aug 18, 2017, 02:59PM »

Well, OP started talking about high D. Maybe we could be exceptionally clement because the contributions are REALLY cool.   Good!

Absolutely!  I'm just getting a little lightheaded is all  :-0.  Beats the herpes thread ...
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« Reply #33 on: Aug 19, 2017, 01:32AM »

As an Europe I am a child of Palmer Traulsen/Anton Hansen/Paul Weschke, who is the foundation of trombone playng in Scandinavia, I have another nomeclature for the 11th partial. Db 3 1/3, D 2 1/3, Eb 1 1/3, and the 13th partial E 3 1/3, F 2 1/3, G# 1 1/3. 15th partial G 3, Ab 2, A 1,
Slotting? Oh well....

Somtimes in modern nomeclature the 3 1/3 is written 3+ sometimes 3- That is funny, the + means that you add to the slide  lenght, the - means to
 lower the pitch, sometimes the same position is written #4 or b3.
Paul Weschke just thought the slide positions where closer the the upper positionss.
I case a G4 to D5 would be like #2 to b2.

Slotting the G5 is hard, but for me the pos 3 is the best. Higher that is just like wisthling for me, any slidepositions will do alike.

I am not suggesting that any of the above, or Sams nomeclarure is wrong or right, there are different ways to say the same thing. 
My self I prefewr to say 3.5, (that is the same as #4 or b3 or 3 1/3)

Not forgetting that there are many tuning adjustments that need to be made in middle register as well. Let our ears (and electronic tuners?) be our guide.
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« Reply #34 on: Aug 19, 2017, 02:54AM »

--- snip ---
Beats the herpes thread ...

Yeah! Much more infectious...
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« Reply #35 on: Aug 19, 2017, 03:30AM »

Not forgetting that there are many tuning adjustments that need to be made in middle register as well. Let our ears (and electronic tuners?) be our guide.
Sure.
And the electronic tuner can of course be a ruogh guide. But that is not how we play is it.
As we always have to tune to the enviroment, we have to play together with other people to learn how to play in tune. The same tone can vary from one chord to another chord, and a low Db played together with a bari sax is most often differnt when play together with a cello. Diffent again with a contrabass. Different again with a piano.
The trombone itself differ from the overtoneseries, all trombones do. And all trombone differ from other trombones.

As mainly a basstrombonist I say there are many adjustments needed to be made i low, and very low range of the horn.

Why I like the 3,5 is that it only tells that the position is in between 3 and 4. The 7partial G is not in the middle, it a sharp 2. #2.
Beginners and Returning Trombonists? Watch out!  :D
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« Reply #36 on: Aug 19, 2017, 05:24AM »

I'm not sure of where we are at this point. I would like to add that centering the the notes varies slightly form horn to horn,but also using the same horn can vary from mouthpiece to mouthpiece.A whole 'nother conundrum. The most success I've had in that range has been using this kind of approach. Starting on the high "D",even on newer horns this note is a tad flat,(not nearly as bad as on horns when I first started playing).When I nee vibrato on that note I use two methods ,one is to play it in a slightly b2, the other is to tune my horn a few cents sharp so that the D is actually sharp on the horn in closed 1st position.This allows for good sounding slide vibrato.
 Now High Eb I mostly play in a very slightly flat 1st or in the normal 3rd(most Eb's are sharp in 3rd so I mean pulling out ever so slightly).
 Now the Elusive high E. I've found through much practice and missing  that if I pull it ever so slightly in from 2nd it's so much more accurate and usable. above high F everything varies due to equipment(horn,mouthpiece) High F# is almost always very close to a slightly flat 1st,High G varies a good bit due to equipment choices(horn,mouthpiece)from a Sharp to to a fairly flat 1st for ME,High Ab I have really come to like in a position between 2 and what I consider sharp 2.When these started slotting for me a whole of "Urbieisms" became much more clear to me. I generally use super High A in 2  super High Bb in 1st or very slightly flat 2nd.And yes I play a lot more up in that range than I should.lots of flexibility and control practice.
Hope this helps someone,
Bob Riddle
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« Reply #37 on: Aug 19, 2017, 05:42AM »


And the electronic tuner can of course be a ruogh guide. But that is not how we play is it.


I meant that rather than get too pedantic about the absolute position titles, use our ears and tuners if necessary to secure a foothold to these higher notes. And then create new sub-positions for them relevant to our setup.
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« Reply #38 on: Aug 19, 2017, 06:47AM »

I meant that rather than get too pedantic about the absolute position titles, use our ears and tuners if necessary to secure a foothold to these higher notes. And then create new sub-positions for them relevant to our setup.

Precisely.

Thank you.

S.
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« Reply #39 on: Aug 19, 2017, 07:30AM »

If you want more defined slots in the upper register, try an Acousticoil. Works for me...may be dumbo's crow feather, but it works for me.  And I frequently get around in the Steinmeyer registers.
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« Reply #40 on: Aug 19, 2017, 09:01AM »

I meant that rather than get too pedantic about the absolute position titles, use our ears and tuners if necessary to secure a foothold to these higher notes. And then create new sub-positions for them relevant to our setup.

Yes that is my idea too. 3,5 can be closer to 4 or closer to 3, somwhere in middle.
Also how to name the positions is absolut depending how you first learned them. All ways that work is right.
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« Reply #41 on: Aug 20, 2017, 12:52PM »

If you want more defined slots in the upper register, try an Acousticoil. Works for me...may be dumbo's crow feather, but it works for me.  And I frequently get around in the Steinmeyer registers.

I can confirm that!  He definitely can get around up there. 
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« Reply #42 on: Aug 20, 2017, 07:43PM »

???
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« Reply #43 on: Aug 20, 2017, 10:40PM »

???


I think Tim means that Philip (ssking2b) has some facility in the Steimeyer range.
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« Reply #44 on: Aug 21, 2017, 04:11AM »

I think Tim means that Philip (ssking2b) has some facility in the Steimeyer range.

Or Acousticoil.

As much as I need all the help I can get in the upper/upper range, I'm not about to use a cheater. Why not just play everything down one octave and run it through an electronic device that changes the pitch up one octave, if we REALLY want a cheater.

...Geezer
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« Reply #45 on: Aug 21, 2017, 05:13AM »

I think Tim means that Philip (ssking2b) has some facility in the Steimeyer range.

Yes.  He plays in a couple of groups I play in, and he has monster range and control. 

No comment on the acousticoil.   <grin> 
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« Reply #46 on: Aug 21, 2017, 06:04AM »

Well, he voluntarily admitted to using it. So he has my respect for cheating honestly.

...Geezer
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« Reply #47 on: Aug 21, 2017, 06:35AM »

I don't know what it does.

I would be surprised if I could tell any difference personally, at my level.  I won't rule out that more sophisticated players may detect differences I would miss. 

In that sense I doubt it's a "cheat."

Hey, I'm not all that sensitive to mouthpieces.  I use a 4 on my alto.  I tried a 15C this past week, based on a conversation here, couldn't tell much difference.  Of course it's a pBone mini, that might have an effect.
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« Reply #48 on: Aug 21, 2017, 07:00AM »

I don't know what it does.

I would be surprised if I could tell any difference personally, at my level.  I won't rule out that more sophisticated players may detect differences I would miss. 

In that sense I doubt it's a "cheat."

Hey, I'm not all that sensitive to mouthpieces.  I use a 4 on my alto.  I tried a 15C this past week, based on a conversation here, couldn't tell much difference.  Of course it's a pBone mini, that might have an effect.

Maybe it's a good side discussion of what constitutes a "cheat". And maybe I shouldn't have used that word.

Anyway, did me having my teeth capped, constitute a "cheat"? Does my selecting a King 2B with a Bach 12C mpc to play as high as I possibly can, constitute a "cheat"? Does "shifting" that some say they do, constitute a "cheat"? Does the selection of a leadpipe that enhances a person's high range, constitute a "cheat"? Does using a Wedge mpc? Etc. Etc.

...Geezer
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« Reply #49 on: Aug 21, 2017, 07:40AM »

in regards to the acousticoil. I would regard it as more of an aid than a cheat.(no offense intended).just as I would call Mouthpieces,Leadpipes,different bore horns,horn designs,etc. ways of helping us all to find our inner voice for every situation.Different players approach the horn differently on a basis as much of philosophy as much as science.Both have their merits IMHO. my personal approach is about being as efficient and relaxed as possible physically with a relaxed but focused mental state.not part of original discussion,but it seemed like it would fit at this point in the discussion.

VHY
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« Reply #50 on: Aug 21, 2017, 07:51AM »

Aid!

Thanks Bob. My erudition is quite determinate.  ;-)

Now everyone please excuse my absence a while. I have to go out in my yard this afternoon and play some Calypso music!  Way cool

...Geezer
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« Reply #51 on: Aug 22, 2017, 12:16PM »

Let me say this - It is not a cheat, it's an alternative piece of equipment along the lines of lead pipes, weights, etc.  I also use one in my bass trombone and tuba.  Not for high notes, but for refining control, or if you will, aiding me to have more finite control over my approach to the horn.  I can do the same things range wise on any horn with or without the accousticoil.  I just prefer the way that all my horns play in ALL registers with it.

BTW, for Geezer's sake - I can play the double high Bb on my Holton TR180 bass bone with my Marcinkiewicz 105 mouthpiece any time...dead cold out of the case.  Why?  Because I understand breath control, and I practice exactly what Bob Riddle described: "my personal approach is about being as efficient and relaxed as possible physically with a relaxed but focused mental state."

Tim may have heard me do that at a rehearsal, too.  If not, Tim, let me know and I'll demonstrate next Monday night when I see at rehearsal.
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« Reply #52 on: Aug 22, 2017, 12:47PM »


Tim may have heard me do that at a rehearsal, too.  If not, Tim, let me know and I'll demonstrate next Monday night when I see at rehearsal.

Yes, I've heard him, and he can nail that note with power.  I'm in awe. 
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« Reply #53 on: Aug 22, 2017, 01:20PM »

Let me say this - It is not a cheat, it's an alternative piece of equipment along the lines of lead pipes, weights, etc.  I also use one in my bass trombone and tuba.  Not for high notes, but for refining control, or if you will, aiding me to have more finite control over my approach to the horn.  I can do the same things range wise on any horn with or without the accousticoil.  I just prefer the way that all my horns play in ALL registers with it.

BTW, for Geezer's sake - I can play the double high Bb on my Holton TR180 bass bone with my Marcinkiewicz 105 mouthpiece any time...dead cold out of the case.  Why?  Because I understand breath control, and I practice exactly what Bob Riddle described: "my personal approach is about being as efficient and relaxed as possible physically with a relaxed but focused mental state."

Tim may have heard me do that at a rehearsal, too.  If not, Tim, let me know and I'll demonstrate next Monday night when I see at rehearsal.

That's very interesting. So it's not some instant high-range gimmick like I saw on YouTube once. I did go to the page and read about it after seeing your post. But the manufacturer can write anything he wants to and in the five years I have been on this Forum, I haven't seen it mentioned once. Although there are many boards I do not look at.

I'm with you in trying to play from a more relaxed state. I work very, very hard every day to learn how to play without working hard.

This topic doesn't get enough discussion. Harrison commented on it as well. I mentioned the concept once recently to a nephew who does some singing. He was familiar with the concept and it's application to high-range training. Shouldn't this idea be as basic to brass players as inhale-press-and-blow? And yet it apparently isn't.  Don't know

...Geezer
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« Reply #54 on: Aug 23, 2017, 05:05AM »

Let me say this - It is not a cheat, it's an alternative piece of equipment along the lines of lead pipes, weights, etc.  I also use one in my bass trombone and tuba.  Not for high notes, but for refining control, or if you will, aiding me to have more finite control over my approach to the horn.  I can do the same things range wise on any horn with or without the accousticoil.  I just prefer the way that all my horns play in ALL registers with it.

BTW, for Geezer's sake - I can play the double high Bb on my Holton TR180 bass bone with my Marcinkiewicz 105 mouthpiece any time...dead cold out of the case.  Why?  Because I understand breath control, and I practice exactly what Bob Riddle described: "my personal approach is about being as efficient and relaxed as possible physically with a relaxed but focused mental state."

Tim may have heard me do that at a rehearsal, too.  If not, Tim, let me know and I'll demonstrate next Monday night when I see at rehearsal.

Can you tell more about the Acousticoil? Sounds very interesting. (I can play double Bb on my basses too, not looking for a hightone help), but this sounds like something that has to do with the acousting of the horn, maybe making the standing waves mor steady?
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« Reply #55 on: Aug 23, 2017, 05:17AM »

When these first came out I knew several players trying them out.Not sure how many still use them.The idea ,as I remember it was to aid in the centering of notes,and slotting of notes, which in theory would aid intonation and tone quality.
Hope this helps some,

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« Reply #56 on: Aug 23, 2017, 05:20AM »

The Acousticoil is designed to create a slight acoustic disruption.  This does influence the standing waves. It was designed by a trumpet player to help his middle school and elementary school trumpet students get a proper focus, or slotting to their playing.   It makes finding your slot on each not easier, or in my estimation, allows me a more finite control of the focus of my sound.  The device is created using sound principals of physics, and is patented.

You don't hear all that much about them as it was created and manufactured by a one man operation.  The creator is over 80 now , so he is not really actively producing the device any more. Myself and 2 partners are talking with him about keeping the product alive.

It does little or nothing for some players, but in the case of others, the difference is instant and dramatic.  I call it dumbo's crow feather because if it helps you fly...mission accomplished. Why, how, etc doesn't matter if it works!  It works for me, and many people I have introduced to it. We fly!
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« Reply #57 on: Aug 23, 2017, 05:33AM »

At any rate, until you guys can gain distribution rights, it appears to be a moot discussion point, as they apparently are no longer for sale. I went to their web site and then on to the site they list and all it shows are car stereo systems.

...Geezer
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« Reply #58 on: Aug 23, 2017, 05:40AM »

We have had some discussion in the past.  I thought it was here but google found some on the old trombone-l (blast from the past, interesting to see some of the names that showed up), on trumpet herald, on tubenet, etc. 

Some people liked them a lot, some could tell no difference.  Most thought the acoustic explanation of the inventor is very unlikely, but that doesn't rule out an effect for some other reason, maybe just adding a little resistance at the right spot.  Fontana was cited as somebody who used them. 
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« Reply #59 on: Aug 23, 2017, 06:35AM »

Tim,
  What you said lines up very well with what I remember.
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« Reply #60 on: Aug 23, 2017, 11:40AM »

All correct about the Accousticoil.  The inventor/manufacturer, Don Novy, makes them himself.  He is now over 80, and just not feeling like working too hard.  I hope to work out something with him and my partners where we can make it, and sell it. I will keep the forum posted, as we will want to get a few folks to experiment with it soon.  I have a friend who is experimenting with the trumpet version now, and having some success.

Since it has always been a one man operation, distribution has been small.  When I first tried it I didn't care for it.  Later, after some experimentation with placement, the result was stunningly good.  Don never said it would work for everyone in every horn...but at a relatively inexpensive price, it won't hurt your wallet to try it.  If we do reach an agreement with him, we intend to keep the price affordable.  It's more important to us keep a good product around, not to make a fortune.  But, to paraphrase Tevye, a small fortune couldn't hurt!
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« Reply #61 on: Aug 28, 2017, 04:04PM »

Just posted a video unedited of an exercise for consistency of attacks ,while working on  obtaining a (feel) for every note.This can be started on any note.I chose a middle "F" because it is how it was originally given to me.
Bob Riddle



https://youtu.be/WbitAbaxAws
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« Reply #62 on: Aug 29, 2017, 05:49AM »

I recognized the pattern immediately! I use it for long tones and endurance training by breathing in through my stuffed-up nose. lol

So now I'll have to start using it for expanding my range! I like the idea of alternating high & low. I use the same concept on ballad songs that are pitched high. I'll start them off high and then play the second chorus as low as possible. Alan Kaplan's "Fools Rush In" is a good one for that. There are some important low B's to try for in trigger b2nd when I play his chart down two octaves after playing it up as written. Roy Agee's "I'm In The Mood For Love" - in swing - is great for that variation as well; lots of low C's and if I alternate low/high - there is a high D to make. I should try to do a recording of me playing it alternately low/high sometime. If (when) I can play through it hitting lush low C's and a vibrant high D - all lyrically - I'll figure those songs are no longer "etudes" for me. lol

My point is that to improve upon high note articulation and high-note development in general, I think it's important to sometimes also alternate with lots of low-range work - as you did on the demo. Why? Well, for me - I think it helps keep me from getting muscle-bound (for lack of a better term); keeps the chops supple - same as the Michael Davis warm-up flexibility exercises do for me (as well as opening up my tone) and helps to more smoothly connect the ranges, which just hitting one high note after another might not tend to do. So it's part of an "attack the high range (and low range) from all angles" strategy.

And I believe there is another good reason to incorporate that exercise or one like it: it can serve as a bench-mark for progress over time. Right now, I am using the Range Exercise in the Michael Davis "15-Minute Warm-Up Book" for that purpose. I use his play-along track and when I get the high Bb arpeggio out that is the end of his exercise, I quickly turn the volume down on my stereo (without taking my chops off the mpc) and continue extending the exercise up by half-steps. I can clearly note my progress over the past 8(?) months and it's encouraging. The only caveat with that approach is to not jump off the bridge (or do a mpc switch - LOL) if I have a bad day (or three). It's the long-term trend I believe that is important to keep focusing on. Okay, glean encouragement from the good days and fuggetabout (ala Sam) the bad days. lol

Anyway, thanks for sharing! Hope to see you soon!

...Geezer
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« Reply #63 on: Aug 29, 2017, 05:51AM »

I recognized the pattern immediately!

It has a name, spiderweb.
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Tim Richardson
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« Reply #64 on: Aug 29, 2017, 06:33AM »

 Good! Exactly!

Bob Riddle
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« Reply #65 on: Aug 31, 2017, 07:11AM »

About the conversation a while back, (not about the exact place to put the slide but how to name the positions), I found the book "Alternate Position System For Trombone" by Tom Malone. Copyright 1974.
His nomeclature is close to the Scandnavian.
Ex. 7th partial G position 1.7 abbreviation #2.
11th partial Eb position 1.5 abbreviation 1 1/2.
13th partial F# postion 1.4 abbreviation b1.

Of course this is only for talking about the positions.
As I hinted before, when we do play we use our ears and adjust the slide.
He is not using all possible positions though.

15th partial Ab pos. 2 abb. 2.
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Kanstul 1662. Bach 45B. Kanstul 1555. Besson Euphonium. Kanstul 66-S Tuba. Sackbuts in F/E/Eb Bb/A
And several horns I should sell.
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