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Author Topic: High note articulation  (Read 3061 times)
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sabutin

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« Reply #20 on: Aug 17, 2017, 08:49AM »

Have just checked on my setup and, I got a slotted G, G sharp and A in 3rd.

"Slotted?" To the point of being able to use slide vibrato on them? If so, your equipment is very good up there.

Question:

When you play a 12th partial Eb in 3rd position. the G, G#/A and A are to be expected...they are the 15th, 16th and...something resembling...the 17th partials. (After the 16th partials the overtone series turns into quarter tones.) Are there not an F of some sort and an F# above that Eb before you get to the G? There are on all of my horns, and that is the way the overtone series with Ab1 (Pedal Ab) as its fundamental.

S.
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« Reply #21 on: Aug 17, 2017, 11:13AM »

"Slotted?" To the point of being able to use slide vibrato on them? If so, your equipment is very good up there.

Question:

When you play a 12th partial Eb in 3rd position. the G, G#/A and A are to be expected...they are the 15th, 16th and...something resembling...the 17th partials. (After the 16th partials the overtone series turns into quarter tones.) Are there not an F of some sort and an F# above that Eb before you get to the G? There are on all of my horns, and that is the way the overtone series with Ab1 (Pedal Ab) as its fundamental.

S.

Well, slotted as in that there's a clear difference between the notes, but vibrato? I doubt it.

Is there not an F of some sort and an F# above that Eb before you get to the G? S

I didn't look for it because I already have a good one using a b2nd above the D. There's a short run of minor third intervals in this Partial, and using flat positions I've got.. !st Eb-Gb, 2nd D-F, 3rd C sharp-E. That's the E that I've mentioned.

I'm glad that in theory the these notes are where they "should" be, but I don't know how much value that they have, though apart from offering some note options for people who's horns have suspect or missing notes, like my Bach 12 with its dodgy Bb in 3rd.
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growlerbox
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« Reply #22 on: Aug 17, 2017, 01:23PM »

I fear this thread has strayed somewhat beyond the typical "beginner and returning trombonist"  Amazed :D
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« Reply #23 on: Aug 17, 2017, 01:34PM »

I fear this thread has strayed somewhat beyond the typical "beginner and returning trombonist"  Amazed :D

Or there are some extremely gifted "returners"!  Amazed

Being one of the "extremely gifted returners", I find this thread and the responses so far to be very interesting.  :D

...Geezer
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« Reply #24 on: Aug 17, 2017, 01:51PM »

Well, slotted as in that there's a clear difference between the notes, but vibrato? I doubt it.

Is there not an F of some sort and an F# above that Eb before you get to the G? S

I didn't look for it because I already have a good one using a b2nd above the D. There's a short run of minor third intervals in this Partial, and using flat positions I've got.. !st Eb-Gb, 2nd D-F, 3rd C sharp-E. That's the E that I've mentioned.

I'm glad that in theory the these notes are where they "should" be, but I don't know how much value that they have, though apart from offering some note options for people who's horns have suspect or missing notes, like my Bach 12 with its dodgy Bb in 3rd.


First comes theory when you are not sure of things.

Then comes practice, followed by knowledge.

Sometimes "theory" is wrong. That's where practice comes in. And if in that practice you find that "theory" proves out, then you have knowledge that can be used when...or if...it is needed. You also gain know;ledge if theory does not prove out.

As far as "slots" are concerned...they are all pretty soft slots up there, I believe. I haven't played Dave Steinmeyer's equipment in a long, long while, but I believe he once said to me something about working on equipment to try to firm up those slots to the point where a slide vibrato could be used.

Makes sense to me...

S.
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« Reply #25 on: Aug 17, 2017, 02:25PM »

I went looking unsuccessfully for a link to Milt Bernhart's version of the solo in Sinatra's "I've Got You Under My Skin". It's the version where the soloist tongues 16th notes on a high F#  . I think it is by far the best version of this solo, although I did find many other versions on youtube and dailymotion.

As I started to work on my high register, I was asked: "If you are using your tongue to increase air speed, how are going to use it for articulation?" So I stopped using my tongue for things other than articulation. The tongue is a shortcut for high notes, and depending on how serious you get, it will take you a while to unlearn doing this. It took me some time.
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Martin Hubel
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« Reply #26 on: Aug 17, 2017, 03:14PM »

Sam, My use of the word theory is a result of your posts above, and the confirmation that I was in the right area. The 17th partial is not a phrase that Iíve ever read about let alone used until now.

I found that the 10 or so minutes that I spent practicing these tones today unsettled my embouchure a little, and Iím going to be stopping around the high G in 3rd, which will help insure the tones below.

As a sideline, Iíve found that a good way to revive a discombobulated lip is to clean your teeth with cold water, but no tooth paste. An electric brush is better..
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« Reply #27 on: Aug 17, 2017, 03:21PM »

I went looking unsuccessfully for a link to Milt Bernhart's version of the solo in Sinatra's "I've Got You Under My Skin". It's the version where the soloist tongues 16th notes on a high F#  . I think it is by far the best version of this solo, although I did find many other versions on youtube and dailymotion.


As I understand it, Frank Sinatra re-recorded a lot of his Capitol output went he started his own label, Reprise. The version that you're looking for is not from the original "Songs For Swinging Lovers" album on Capital, but a re-recording, try the Reprise version.
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« Reply #28 on: Aug 17, 2017, 03:25PM »

As I understand it, Frank Sinatra re-recorded a lot of his Capitol output went he started his own label, Reprise. The version that you're looking for is not from the original "Songs For Swinging Lovers" album on Capital, but a re-recording, try the Reprise version.

Actually, I have the version I'm referring to on a CD. I found the Reprise version online, but that wasn't what I what I was trying to find. If you know to what I'm referring, please post the link. Thanks.
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Martin Hubel
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« Reply #29 on: Aug 17, 2017, 03:27PM »

I fear this thread has strayed somewhat beyond the typical "beginner and returning trombonist"  Amazed :D

Well, OP started talking about high D. Maybe we could be exceptionally clement because the contributions are REALLY cool.   Good!
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« Reply #30 on: Aug 18, 2017, 06:00AM »

As an Europe I am a child of Palmer Traulsen/Anton Hansen/Paul Weschke, who is the foundation of trombone playng in Scandinavia, I have another nomeclature for the 11th partial. Db 3 1/3, D 2 1/3, Eb 1 1/3, and the 13th partial E 3 1/3, F 2 1/3, G# 1 1/3. 15th partial G 3, Ab 2, A 1,
Slotting? Oh well....

Somtimes in modern nomeclature the 3 1/3 is written 3+ sometimes 3- That is funny, the + means that you add to the slide  lenght, the - means to
 lower the pitch, sometimes the same position is written #4 or b3.
Paul Weschke just thought the slide positions where closer the the upper positionss.
I case a G4 to D5 would be like #2 to b2.

Slotting the G5 is hard, but for me the pos 3 is the best. Higher that is just like wisthling for me, any slidepositions will do alike.

I am not suggesting that any of the above, or Sams nomeclarure is wrong or right, there are different ways to say the same thing. 
My self I prefewr to say 3.5, (that is the same as #4 or b3 or 3 1/3)
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sabutin

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« Reply #31 on: Aug 18, 2017, 10:53AM »

As an Europe I am a child of Palmer Traulsen/Anton Hansen/Paul Weschke, who is the foundation of trombone playng in Scandinavia, I have another nomeclature for the 11th partial. Db 3 1/3, D 2 1/3, Eb 1 1/3, and the 13th partial E 3 1/3, F 2 1/3, G# 1 1/3. 15th partial G 3, Ab 2, A 1,
Slotting? Oh well....

Somtimes in modern nomeclature the 3 1/3 is written 3+ sometimes 3- That is funny, the + means that you add to the slide  lenght, the - means to
 lower the pitch, sometimes the same position is written #4 or b3.
Paul Weschke just thought the slide positions where closer the the upper positionss.
I case a G4 to D5 would be like #2 to b2.

Slotting the G5 is hard, but for me the pos 3 is the best. Higher that is just like wisthling for me, any slidepositions will do alike.

I am not suggesting that any of the above, or Sams nomeclarure is wrong or right, there are different ways to say the same thing. 
My self I prefewr to say 3.5, (that is the same as #4 or b3 or 3 1/3)

Sven...

I prefer the + and - indications, only because these things vary so much on different horns.

When it's in tune with the consistently best sound? That's where it is on the slide.

S.
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« Reply #32 on: Aug 18, 2017, 02:59PM »

Well, OP started talking about high D. Maybe we could be exceptionally clement because the contributions are REALLY cool.   Good!

Absolutely!  I'm just getting a little lightheaded is all  :-0.  Beats the herpes thread ...
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« Reply #33 on: Aug 19, 2017, 01:32AM »

As an Europe I am a child of Palmer Traulsen/Anton Hansen/Paul Weschke, who is the foundation of trombone playng in Scandinavia, I have another nomeclature for the 11th partial. Db 3 1/3, D 2 1/3, Eb 1 1/3, and the 13th partial E 3 1/3, F 2 1/3, G# 1 1/3. 15th partial G 3, Ab 2, A 1,
Slotting? Oh well....

Somtimes in modern nomeclature the 3 1/3 is written 3+ sometimes 3- That is funny, the + means that you add to the slide  lenght, the - means to
 lower the pitch, sometimes the same position is written #4 or b3.
Paul Weschke just thought the slide positions where closer the the upper positionss.
I case a G4 to D5 would be like #2 to b2.

Slotting the G5 is hard, but for me the pos 3 is the best. Higher that is just like wisthling for me, any slidepositions will do alike.

I am not suggesting that any of the above, or Sams nomeclarure is wrong or right, there are different ways to say the same thing. 
My self I prefewr to say 3.5, (that is the same as #4 or b3 or 3 1/3)

Not forgetting that there are many tuning adjustments that need to be made in middle register as well. Let our ears (and electronic tuners?) be our guide.
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« Reply #34 on: Aug 19, 2017, 02:54AM »

--- snip ---
Beats the herpes thread ...

Yeah! Much more infectious...
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« Reply #35 on: Aug 19, 2017, 03:30AM »

Not forgetting that there are many tuning adjustments that need to be made in middle register as well. Let our ears (and electronic tuners?) be our guide.
Sure.
And the electronic tuner can of course be a ruogh guide. But that is not how we play is it.
As we always have to tune to the enviroment, we have to play together with other people to learn how to play in tune. The same tone can vary from one chord to another chord, and a low Db played together with a bari sax is most often differnt when play together with a cello. Diffent again with a contrabass. Different again with a piano.
The trombone itself differ from the overtoneseries, all trombones do. And all trombone differ from other trombones.

As mainly a basstrombonist I say there are many adjustments needed to be made i low, and very low range of the horn.

Why I like the 3,5 is that it only tells that the position is in between 3 and 4. The 7partial G is not in the middle, it a sharp 2. #2.
Beginners and Returning Trombonists? Watch out!  :D
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« Reply #36 on: Aug 19, 2017, 05:24AM »

I'm not sure of where we are at this point. I would like to add that centering the the notes varies slightly form horn to horn,but also using the same horn can vary from mouthpiece to mouthpiece.A whole 'nother conundrum. The most success I've had in that range has been using this kind of approach. Starting on the high "D",even on newer horns this note is a tad flat,(not nearly as bad as on horns when I first started playing).When I nee vibrato on that note I use two methods ,one is to play it in a slightly b2, the other is to tune my horn a few cents sharp so that the D is actually sharp on the horn in closed 1st position.This allows for good sounding slide vibrato.
 Now High Eb I mostly play in a very slightly flat 1st or in the normal 3rd(most Eb's are sharp in 3rd so I mean pulling out ever so slightly).
 Now the Elusive high E. I've found through much practice and missing  that if I pull it ever so slightly in from 2nd it's so much more accurate and usable. above high F everything varies due to equipment(horn,mouthpiece) High F# is almost always very close to a slightly flat 1st,High G varies a good bit due to equipment choices(horn,mouthpiece)from a Sharp to to a fairly flat 1st for ME,High Ab I have really come to like in a position between 2 and what I consider sharp 2.When these started slotting for me a whole of "Urbieisms" became much more clear to me. I generally use super High A in 2  super High Bb in 1st or very slightly flat 2nd.And yes I play a lot more up in that range than I should.lots of flexibility and control practice.
Hope this helps someone,
Bob Riddle
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« Reply #37 on: Aug 19, 2017, 05:42AM »


And the electronic tuner can of course be a ruogh guide. But that is not how we play is it.


I meant that rather than get too pedantic about the absolute position titles, use our ears and tuners if necessary to secure a foothold to these higher notes. And then create new sub-positions for them relevant to our setup.
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« Reply #38 on: Aug 19, 2017, 06:47AM »

I meant that rather than get too pedantic about the absolute position titles, use our ears and tuners if necessary to secure a foothold to these higher notes. And then create new sub-positions for them relevant to our setup.

Precisely.

Thank you.

S.
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« Reply #39 on: Aug 19, 2017, 07:30AM »

If you want more defined slots in the upper register, try an Acousticoil. Works for me...may be dumbo's crow feather, but it works for me.  And I frequently get around in the Steinmeyer registers.
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