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The Trombone ForumHorns, Gear, and EquipmentRepairs, Modifications and Maintenance(Moderators: john sandhagen, BGuttman) Hand rest solutions that have least impact on response
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mr.deacon
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« on: Aug 11, 2017, 04:32PM »

Hello!

So I've always been against hand rest solutions due to them dampening the response of a horn. So far I've tried the Bullet/Axe style clip on to the main brace and Get a Grip solutions both of which IMO changed how the horn responded. The Get a Grip changed it the least but it seemed to effect how I projected which I wasn't a fan of...

I'm looking into other solutions... either things I can buy or have my tech whip up.

How do the old school Greenhoe style solder on braces effect response? In theory it seems like these should work great due to how little mass is added... It also seem like to me cooking up something similar or straight up buying to a Shires "Hook" kit rest from Shires would have little to no effect on response for the same reasons...

Anyone else have any experience with stuff like this?

Moral of the story is I'm looking for a handrest solution that doesn't clip onto a main bell brace, add a significant amount of mass or add a large surface area (like the Get a Grip) to my horn. Stuff that needs to be permanently installed is cool.

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BGuttman
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« Reply #1 on: Aug 11, 2017, 05:24PM »

Snide answer: Learn to hold theh thing so you don't need those crutches.

Less snide answer: Get a Holton TR-150, older King 4B-F, or Olds Opera so you have the brace "built in" (you hold it around the bell brace).

Anything else you do will change the response to some extent.  Some things more than others.  If you need the brace, be prepared to deal with the change of response.
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Bruce Guttman
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jimkinkella
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« Reply #2 on: Aug 11, 2017, 05:50PM »

It sounds like your best bet would be a brace similar to the Sheridan or Bullet, but snipped in the middle and twisted around to solder on the the upper slide tenon. Lowest mass, attachment to a member that's already under tension, and actually reducing torsion on the tenon itself. A clamp-on version could be worked up, if you're into spending the time, effort, and budget. Or you could always go with a hand strap...
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Ellrod

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« Reply #3 on: Aug 11, 2017, 06:32PM »

A NeoTech is pretty light (plastic and nylon) isn't it?

I've just received a GaG. Hadn't noticed any difference. I'll have to pay closer attention.
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Matt K

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« Reply #4 on: Aug 11, 2017, 07:04PM »

I don't notice a difference with the Neotech. I just put one on all of my horns, even my small bore tenor. So comfortable.

Aa far as the clamp style ones  are co concerned, I would really be surprised if they made such a difference that it is perceivable in a recording for the vast majority of players (which, of course, means that you could be in tat population!) If I wanted to test it, I would put just the device on the horn without the part your thumb goes on and record it. Then do the same without. Have someone else label the tracks then play them on shuffle and see if the difference is both discernable and secondly negative.

You may be sensitive enough that it makes a difference but even then the"dampening" might not be a bad thing. The placebo effect is pretty strong and if you anticipate something having an influence it will! Actually, on that note, when you record, have someone else attach the brace and blindfold yourself!

Just like adding a counterweight, it might just take some time getting used to as well. In my mind, it boils down to whether or not to you the difference in sound is 1) compensated by extra time you could  practice and play in general without injury, 2) compensated by increased control over the instrument, and/or 3) actually perceivably less desirable.

It seems like there are plenty of people that 1,2,and 3 don't apply. I'm definitely not one of them.

For what it's worth, another mod I recently had added were two trumpet pinky hooks on the upper slide brace. One on top, the other on the bottom. My fingers do t have to stretch at all to grip the slide. Super comfortable. If I remember, I'll post pictures tomorrow.
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mr.deacon
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« Reply #5 on: Aug 11, 2017, 07:57PM »

Just to add I guess...

I have small hands and I'm trying to adjust where I pivot my thumb so I can articulate the valve the fastest. The spot I've found has changed my formerly comfortable position to something that's now uncomfortable but now I can actually move the valve fast...

I was going to talk to my tech too about adjusting my trigger and see how much that would help too.

I'm just looking into handrest solutions as a backup in case I can't find a comfortable solution without one.

For what it's worth I find little to no difference in my sound with the handrests I've tried... It's just the response that's different. For some reason I seem to be pretty picky about weight and brace spots on my horns and the handrests always seem to just never jive with me as playing without.
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« Reply #6 on: Aug 11, 2017, 08:17PM »

I like the Greenhoe hand brace. I use them on an Edwards bass, a Shires bass and a Bach 42T.  The Edwards is soldered in place. I am still using the hose clamps for the other two. I have a spare floating around somewhere, too. (Not for sale - please don't ask!)

I didn't really notice a change in any of the horns. The Shires, in particular, is still incredibly quick responding.

Perhaps it's because of what the Greenhoe brace is connected to. I wouldn't have thought that the slide receiver of a trombone would be the most resonant part of an instrument, anyway, given there is often second valves soldered there, not to mention your left hand often rest in that area. I doubt extra mass, in that position, is having an enormous effect.

For me, even if there was a slight change to the response, it's more than made up for by my ability to stay relaxed while holding the horn, and to make more nuanced adjustments to my mouthpiece position. My first Greenhoe brace made an enormous impact on my technique. When I try horns without them, I often wonder how I made do without one.

You mention you noticed a difference in response with the Get a Grip, which connects to a similar area. Perhaps you are more sensitive to these things than I am. How much of a difference do you think it made? Do you think it would be noticeable form the audience? Did it make the horn difficult to play? Personally, I'd trade a percent or two of resonance for ergonomic ease and playability. YMMV

Andrew
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john sandhagen
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« Reply #7 on: Aug 12, 2017, 05:22AM »

Snide answer: Learn to hold theh thing so you don't need those crutches.

Less snide answer: Get a Holton TR-150, older King 4B-F, or Olds Opera so you have the brace "built in" (you hold it around the bell brace).

Anything else you do will change the response to some extent.  Some things more than others.  If you need the brace, be prepared to deal with the change of response.

Equally snide response...moving the bell brace also affects response and possible wrapping your hand around the bell brace may dampen vibrations also.

My advise as always, fit the horn to your hand, then worry about crutches.

See your tech.  He should make the lever fit YOUR hand.
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Matt K

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« Reply #8 on: Aug 12, 2017, 07:03AM »

Here are the pictures:

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0B21VppW4hdQeV3NJVnFjYnVGOW8?usp=sharing

The shop only charged me $5 per ring and didn't even bother for labor because it was so simple.   Good!  The Neotech was about $20.  THe only problem wtih this, of course, is that if your handbrace is lacquered it will be more in labor and if you ever want to sell the slide, you might have to get them moved to fit other people's hands. Mine, likewise, are quite dainty. So for me the its perfect becasue It gives me something to grip and gives a lot mroe control over the instrument.  Worst case scenario, it doesn't work at all and you're out way less than any of the other braces that cost a lot more money.
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Burgerbob

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« Reply #9 on: Aug 12, 2017, 08:14AM »

Any grip solution is going to change how you hold the horn. Sometimes it's for the better.

I definitely hold the horn differently with my Get a Grip than without. It's a sacrifice I made to gain some endurance and long term health for my joints.
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« Reply #10 on: Aug 12, 2017, 11:32AM »

I have a Rath brace on my Edwards F attachment. I got it from Edwards as something laying around and they thought it was a Adams. Both seem similar. The main thing is they are aluminum and that has very little impact. I cannot tell the difference. I have the sound pillar and tried an aluminum pillar cut from a threaded rod and it did not do anything.
For my straight horn I use a grip that Sam showed a photo of many threads ago. That grip holds most of the horn by the mouth pipe side of the slide.   
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« Reply #11 on: Aug 12, 2017, 03:32PM »

Like Bruce said, anything you add to the horn will change the sound, feel or response.

If you don't want to play the horn without adding a gadget to allow you to hold the horn, then you can either not play the horn, or accept some change in sound, feel or response. Question is, are you willing to work around the gadget to continue to develop your sound and get used to the different feel and response, or are you willing to stop playing?

Remember, the trombone is not an ergonomic instrument. If you want to continue playing and you need a gadget, be creative and work through it.
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« Reply #12 on: Aug 12, 2017, 07:51PM »

Check out Dan Hine's video on youtube.com about holding the horn.  This really helped me quite a bit.  I use a brace, but I am wondering if it is even necessary.  I don't use one on tenor.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=emCK4vtnJ6w&feature=youtu.be

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« Reply #13 on: Aug 20, 2017, 04:48AM »

Has anyone ever found adding the mass of a brace actually improves response? Could it be the same as a counterweight? Adding a counterweight to a 16M I used to own improved response immensely.

Jerry Walker
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« Reply #14 on: Aug 20, 2017, 07:28AM »

I have been using the Greenhoe brace in my 42 for years, never had it soldered (just garden hose clamp), and I've never noticed any difference.

Leather specialties leather straps for bass, never had a problem either
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Maximilien Brisson
mr.deacon
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« Reply #15 on: Aug 20, 2017, 10:13PM »

Leather specialties leather straps for bass, never had a problem either
I actually like those straps quite a bit but they tend to torque your slide so I stopped using them ):

I'll make sure to update you guys what I end up doing! I should be visiting my tech within the next week or two!
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« Reply #16 on: Aug 20, 2017, 10:41PM »

I tried my Shires with my GaG and without. Didn't
notice any difference.
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« Reply #17 on: Aug 25, 2017, 05:50AM »

I just installed an Axe Handle on my 34B. No difference in response. But it sure makes it easier to hold!

Jerry Walker
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« Reply #18 on: Sep 23, 2017, 12:32AM »

I actually like those straps quite a bit but they tend to torque your slide so I stopped using them ):

Just a note on these. I found that the slide was significantly torqued when I placed the loop around the shank of the mouthpiece. My solution was to stretch the leather enough to fit around the actual mouthpiece receiver of the instrument. No more slide torque. The only reason I stopped using the sling was because it took too long to unwrap myself.
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« Reply #19 on: Sep 23, 2017, 06:44AM »

Just a note on these. I found that the slide was significantly torqued when I placed the loop around the shank of the mouthpiece. My solution was to stretch the leather enough to fit around the actual mouthpiece receiver of the instrument. No more slide torque. The only reason I stopped using the sling was because it took too long to unwrap myself.

Yup that's what I do too - the loop goes all the way against the stay so it has minimal leverage - and I've never had any torque issue.
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