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Question: How old is the universe?
Billions of years old - 30 (83.3%)
Less than 7,000 years old - 1 (2.8%)
Other - 5 (13.9%)
Total Voters: 36

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Author Topic: Age of the universe?  (Read 4313 times)
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BillO
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« Reply #20 on: Aug 20, 2017, 07:44PM »

Bill,  This thread just happened to be going tonight,  but got me thinking about the times I wake up at 3 & start thinking....

Ahh, I know the experience...   Good!
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« Reply #21 on: Aug 20, 2017, 08:40PM »

My father, a chemistry Ph.D. and not a science-doubter but also a devoted Lutheran (sola scriptura) was comfortable with the idea that the creation story in Genesis had the essential events in an order similar to the known science and yet wasn't intended as an exact timeline.
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« Reply #22 on: Aug 20, 2017, 10:16PM »

It's worth noting that there are more than a few present-day physicists, cosmologists, philosophers etc. who believe that "time" may prove to be nothing more than an illusory construct of the human mind, and that the concept of "age" may not even be applicable to the universe (multiverse?).
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« Reply #23 on: Aug 20, 2017, 10:35PM »

My father, a chemistry Ph.D. and not a science-doubter but also a devoted Lutheran (sola scriptura) was comfortable with the idea that the creation story in Genesis had the essential events in an order similar to the known science and yet wasn't intended as an exact timeline.

He's not exactly alone. As I understand it that's the most popular viewpoint from US Christians who can handle reality "imposing" upon their religious beliefs--used to be a significant majority of Christians, but I'm not sure that's still the case.
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Baron von Bone
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« Reply #24 on: Aug 20, 2017, 10:37PM »

It's worth noting that there are more than a few present-day physicists, cosmologists, philosophers etc. who believe that "time" may prove to be nothing more than an illusory construct of the human mind, and that the concept of "age" may not even be applicable to the universe (multiverse?).

I expect one can get high trying to wrap one's brain around that one too.
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« Reply #25 on: Aug 21, 2017, 05:31AM »



How I you reconcile evolution with the idea of creation?

Lots of ways.

One obvious one:  evolution continues.  Man becomes divine sometime in the future.  Divinity is not subject to time.  Therefore God exists then and in the past. 

Easiest way:  the Bible is the history of the last 6,000 years of Jewish history, but doesn't go back before that. 
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Tim Richardson
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« Reply #26 on: Aug 21, 2017, 06:15AM »

It's worth noting that there are more than a few present-day physicists, cosmologists, philosophers etc. who believe that "time" may prove to be nothing more than an illusory construct of the human mind, and that the concept of "age" may not even be applicable to the universe (multiverse?).

Some wit said that time is what keeps everything from happening all at once.
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Robert Holmén

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« Reply #27 on: Aug 21, 2017, 06:31AM »

BTW, if you like seeing planets get flung out of their orbits, try Super Planet Crash.

Robert, that's fantastic.
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Dave Taylor

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« Reply #28 on: Aug 21, 2017, 06:35AM »

Some wit said that time is what keeps everything from happening all at once.

Yes, and it seems to fail a lot.
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« Reply #29 on: Aug 21, 2017, 08:35AM »

Some wit said that time is what keeps everything from happening all at once.

Yes, and it seems to fail a lot.

For example:

http://www.collective-evolution.com/2015/07/20/quantum-experiment-shows-how-time-doesnt-exist-as-we-think-it-does-mind-altering/
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« Reply #30 on: Aug 21, 2017, 11:56AM »

The universe and everything in it was created at my birth and will cease to exist upon my death.
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« Reply #31 on: Aug 21, 2017, 12:11PM »

The universe and everything in it was created at my birth and will cease to exist upon my death.

Let us know when you start to feel sick.

We'll all chip in for cryo.  Seems like a reasonable investment, for those of us who want to live past you. 
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BillO
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« Reply #32 on: Aug 21, 2017, 12:20PM »

The universe and everything in it was created at my birth and will cease to exist upon my death.
Ah yes.  A valid answer from the perspective of your subjective worldview.
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« Reply #33 on: Aug 21, 2017, 01:19PM »

The universe and everything in it was created at my birth and will cease to exist upon my death.

From a personal perspective, one that you experience, I guess that's it.

All the fossils, they were already here. Didn't need time to form.

Thank you for sharing your universe with us!
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« Reply #34 on: Aug 21, 2017, 03:11PM »

I'd like to suggest another idea.....that the universe is much older than 14 billions years...it's like someone just came up with the random number of 14 billion years and everyone just jumped on it. I don't get it. And now whenever we look at a new galaxy (old) that is really far away, they always say "well, we know the universe is 14 billlion years old; therefore, it has to be younger than that".   Confused

We seemed to be limited by the scope of what is visible Hubble as well. "Hubble can only view galaxies that are 14 billion light years away, therefore, it's true"  Confused

Here's another question I have, if the visible universe is 96 billion light years diameter (roughly; again we're limited by what our primitive telescopes can see), how can the universe be only 14 billion years old? Does't make sense, because if you think the universe started off in a concentric ball, then exploded, it would take longer than 14 billion years to stretch out to a diameter of 96 billion light years. If the universe started off as an amoeba type configuration, then 14 billion years would be more believable.
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« Reply #35 on: Aug 21, 2017, 05:24PM »

I'd like to suggest another idea.....that the universe is much older than 14 billions years...it's like someone just came up with the random number of 14 billion years and everyone just jumped on it. I don't get it. And now whenever we look at a new galaxy (old) that is really far away, they always say "well, we know the universe is 14 billlion years old; therefore, it has to be younger than that".   Confused

We seemed to be limited by the scope of what is visible Hubble as well. "Hubble can only view galaxies that are 14 billion light years away, therefore, it's true"  Confused

If the Hubble can see something 13.5 billion light years away then you know it's at least that old.

There's a lot of physics to it I couldn't explain but the 13.8 billion years number is one that several different ways of estimating the age of the universe happen to all come real close to. Wikipedia has an article on the age of the universe.
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Here's another question I have, if the visible universe is 96 billion light years diameter (roughly; again we're limited by what our primitive telescopes can see), how can the universe be only 14 billion years old?


The 90-something billion light year diameter accounts for the further distance the objects that gave off that light have traveled away from us since the light was emitted. Yup there's a wiki article on the size of the universe also.

All of these numbers admit they depend on some assumptions.  Good assumptions, based on strong evidence about how matter behaves, but still assumptions.

One theory says the universe is really much smaller that what we seem to observe...

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If the Universe is finite but unbounded, it is also possible that the Universe is smaller than the observable universe. In this case, what we take to be very distant galaxies may actually be duplicate images of nearby galaxies, formed by light that has circumnavigated the Universe. It is difficult to test this hypothesis experimentally because different images of a galaxy would show different eras in its history, and consequently might appear quite different.




On the other hand, there is nothing anyone can measure that indicates an age older than 14 billion years and no predictions for an age older than that also fit with what physicists already know about how things work.
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Robert Holmén

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« Reply #36 on: Aug 22, 2017, 05:11AM »

Robcat, in response to....
On the other hand, there is nothing anyone can measure that indicates an age older than 14 billion years and no predictions for an age older than that also fit with what physicists already know about how things work.

My concern is that scientists are working from a pre-determined set of beliefs; they assume that the universe is 14 billion years old (again, based off of the limitations of Hubble) therefore all their core estimates are based off of that pre-determined assumption about the age of the universe.

If the James Webb telescope is going to have 10X the power of Hubble, it's going to blow their 14 billion year theory "out of orbit":), or at the very least, it should force astronomers to seriously increase the numbers for the size of the universe.
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« Reply #37 on: Aug 22, 2017, 05:46AM »

I'd like to suggest another idea.....that the universe is much older than 14 billions years...it's like someone just came up with the random number of 14 billion years and everyone just jumped on it. I don't get it. And now whenever we look at a new galaxy (old) that is really far away, they always say "well, we know the universe is 14 billlion years old; therefore, it has to be younger than that".   Confused
 
We seemed to be limited by the scope of what is visible Hubble as well. "Hubble can only view galaxies that are 14 billion light years away, therefore, it's true"  Confused
My concern is that scientists are working from a pre-determined set of beliefs; they assume that the universe is 14 billion years old (again, based off of the limitations of Hubble) therefore all their core estimates are based off of that pre-determined assumption about the age of the universe.
 
If the James Webb telescope is going to have 10X the power of Hubble, it's going to blow their 14 billion year theory "out of orbit":), or at the very least, it should force astronomers to seriously increase the numbers for the size of the universe.

Notice that scientists are also the ones who correct these kinds of errors though. That's because they tend to challenge or at least test our existing understanding. In my experience your characterization of how scientists think doesn't match what I see at all. You can see this in documentaries too. They're always watching for new data that will change things and improve our understanding.
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« Reply #38 on: Aug 22, 2017, 05:53AM »

Yes. We want to be wrong. It means that there's a whole lot of interesting thinking to do right in front of us.
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« Reply #39 on: Aug 22, 2017, 06:22AM »



My concern is that scientists are working from a pre-determined set of beliefs; they assume that the universe is 14 billion years old (again, based off of the limitations of Hubble) therefore all their core estimates are based off of that pre-determined assumption about the age of the universe.

This is a mistaken notion that they just "assume" things and that they let the Hubble limit their speculations. They exhausted the Hubble's limitations for this sort of stuff pretty fast and that's why there will be the JWT.





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Robert Holmén

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