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Author Topic: Stearn's law of leadpipes  (Read 2781 times)
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Alex
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« Reply #20 on: Aug 21, 2017, 09:18AM »

With my limited amatuer experience of recently.putting a Rath bass together, they are "everything" sensitive. I could get some very big variations in feel (if not sound) from almost every part change.
From what I heard and felt, the slide plays a big part in how your Rath ends up. The pipe seemed to help fine tune the slide. The tuning slide had an effect on the feel, response and blow and the bell was more like a final tweak.
Thats how I felt when putting my Rath together.
The biggest changes for me were all before the bell.
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Gabe Langfur

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« Reply #21 on: Aug 21, 2017, 04:17PM »

Most of what you are saying relates to more recent experience with Shires trombones, and I can understand where you are coming from.... I had two students last year that had Shires basses.... any attempt to fine-tune them with different leadpipes was futile. Mouthpieces had some effect, but those instruments play and sound a certain way and that's what it will be.

As a long-time Shires player - who learned to play on a slightly unusual Bach with a Brasslab leadpipe and appreciates fine vintage bass trombones - I found that true as well...until I tried a Brass Ark MV50 on a whim. For me, the nature of the slot changed in a way I had been wanting for quite a while. It's both more efficient than the B2 I always came back to - meaning that notes start with less effort all over the horn - and more flexible, meaning that I feel like I can make the sound bigger or smaller without sacrificing the integrity of the core. People I trust listening tell me that the tone color is generally more interesting and personal. I'll take it. Steve has played it and liked it himself, as well.
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Gabe Langfur
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« Reply #22 on: Aug 22, 2017, 12:58AM »

I will have to remember that tip Gabe.
Chris Stearn
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hyperbolica
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« Reply #23 on: Aug 22, 2017, 06:46AM »

As a long-time Shires player - who learned to play on a slightly unusual Bach with a Brasslab leadpipe and appreciates fine vintage bass trombones - I found that true as well...until I tried a Brass Ark MV50 on a whim. For me, the nature of the slot changed in a way I had been wanting for quite a while. It's both more efficient than the B2 I always came back to - meaning that notes start with less effort all over the horn - and more flexible, meaning that I feel like I can make the sound bigger or smaller without sacrificing the integrity of the core. People I trust listening tell me that the tone color is generally more interesting and personal. I'll take it. Steve has played it and liked it himself, as well.

I've noticed that the Brass Ark leadpipes seem to be lighter than other pipes. The horn where I play my Brass Ark MV36 has a distinctively clearer, lighter sound (which might be attributed to any number of custom aspects of the horn). There might also be something else going on with a stiffening heat treat. I don't have massive leadpipe experience, but I've got some, and this Brass Ark pipe definitely distinguishes itself from other run of the mill pipes.

I can't really say if it's an "interesting" sound, as I find interest in just about anything. But the sound of this pipe is definitely clearer, lighter, maybe brighter.
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hassein
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« Reply #24 on: Aug 22, 2017, 07:45PM »

carburetors vs fuel injection-seem to be a little bit of a comparison of how leadpipes of various "vintages"work in horns. How to best send your buzz into this unit is, for me, so far, a bit of a mystery. I play a Rath R9DST with Rotax. I fooled around early on with a few pipes, but for whatever reason(construction) my slide goes out of alignment when I removed the pipe. So I settled on a pipe and left in in after a tech aligned the slide. About a year ago, I bought a Holton 185 from a forum member. I've been fooling around with different pipes ever since to find one that works. Not an easy task. I know what you're thinking(I'm not trying to make it play like my Rath) Been around too long to go there. So far Kanstul and Brass Ark stuff is no good(there,I said it)Still searching......
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mr.deacon
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« Reply #25 on: Aug 22, 2017, 10:22PM »

hassein which brassark pipes have you tried? I found their pipes work pretty good in my TR185... some of their pipes for sure work better then others of theirs though!
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Holton TR 185 1960's, Doug Elliott LB
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Kanstul 975 Euph 2007, 11" GB Bell, Doug Elliott XT
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« Reply #26 on: Aug 23, 2017, 03:20AM »

The Schatz
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mr.deacon
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« Reply #27 on: Aug 23, 2017, 07:58AM »

The Schatz
The new Schatz pipe is fairly tight and might not be everyone's cup of tea or even work in every TR185. Personally I like the new style Schatz pipe in my TR185 and my Shires but that's just me.

If you're looking for a more standard Bach/Holton blow the BrassArk MV50B pipe plays VERY well and if you're looking for a more open blow his NY50B pipe plays fantastic! I have a friend who uses the NY50B in his TR180 and his horn plays amazing.

Maybe your TR185 did have a good stock leadpipe though... and it might be worth it just to keep using the stock leadpipe! Good!
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Holton TR 185 1960's, Doug Elliott LB
Shires Dependent TruBores 2010's, Doug Elliott LB
King 3B 1980's, Doug Elliott XT
Kanstul 975 Euph 2007, 11" GB Bell, Doug Elliott XT
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« Reply #28 on: Aug 23, 2017, 10:05AM »

Well, not really... but I have noticed an unfortunate quality in a group of pipes I have been testing....

The better the feel and sound of a pipe, the more out of tune the harmonic series,

Chris Stearn

That makes perfect sense to me.

When we play a note, the harmonic series sounding above it is a given.  But the partials on the horn are affected by the horn's construction.

So if the partials are different on a leadpipe, the upper frequencies of the note should get a different emphasis. 

If the partials and the harmonic series lines up really well, you probably get an even amplification; if you lip above or below the center of the pitch, I would think you'll get away from center and get duller. 

If the line up is not good, then lipping above or below should let you choose upper frequencies to amplify and add color. 

My theory, anyway.  I don't have any experience with leadpipes, nor probably the skill to hear the subtle differences you did.  I did play a 6H once that had amazing tone color to my ears, and some intonation quirks.  I would have bought it if I'd had the cash at the time.  I can deal with intonation, I have the tuning slide in my hand. 
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Tim Richardson
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« Reply #29 on: Aug 23, 2017, 10:44AM »

Unfortunately I don't think I am clever enough to understand this. To me if something makes my instrument play out of tune then it doesn't sound good. Thats all there is to it really. No other quality Will redeem it if it doesn't play in tune.

I look to make the most even and resonant sound that I can across the range of the instrument and the different levels of dynamics. Usually if something is in tune it resonates better which for me, means a better sound (and usually the people playing next to me too!).
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timothy42b
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« Reply #30 on: Aug 23, 2017, 10:48AM »

Unfortunately I don't think I am clever enough to understand this. To me if something makes my instrument play out of tune then it doesn't sound good.

But, what does out of tune mean on a trombone, where we adjust every position anyway?

If I play an Eb and an Ab in 3rd position, can I do it with zero adjustment (in tune partial), small adjustment, or large adjustment? 

I don't require there to be zero adjustment.  That note is going to be different depending on the chord or the other instruments anyway. 

Am I missing something? 
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Tim Richardson
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« Reply #31 on: Aug 23, 2017, 10:56AM »

But, what does out of tune mean on a trombone, where we adjust every position anyway?

If I play an Eb and an Ab in 3rd position, can I do it with zero adjustment (in tune partial), small adjustment, or large adjustment? 

I don't require there to be zero adjustment.  That note is going to be different depending on the chord or the other instruments anyway. 

Am I missing something? 

Dunno. Maybe I am missing something. The original post said "the better the sound and feel, the more out of tune the harmonic series".
I adjust for each note accordingly, but within reason I would like it to be a predictable adjustment. Perhaps I I interpreted that quote wrong, but I would think if a professional player says something plays out of tune, it means that it is hard to either predict what adjustments need to be made, or that are notes that cannot be manipulated into correct pitch without sacrificing evenness of sound or tone quality in general.

Again, I am not sure but I think clarification is probably coming  :)
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blast

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« Reply #32 on: Aug 23, 2017, 11:02AM »

Unfortunately I don't think I am clever enough to understand this. To me if something makes my instrument play out of tune then it doesn't sound good. Thats all there is to it really. No other quality Will redeem it if it doesn't play in tune.

I look to make the most even and resonant sound that I can across the range of the instrument and the different levels of dynamics. Usually if something is in tune it resonates better which for me, means a better sound (and usually the people playing next to me too!).


Looking at your profile I am sure you can tell the difference. I bet your double is very slotted and unless your 70H has had a pipe change, that will be pretty loose in the slot. If you are a good musician you will find the old Conn easier to play in tune as you can blow it in tune. The slotted double you HAVE to adjust at the slide... and that is less instinctive.

Chris Stearn
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« Reply #33 on: Aug 23, 2017, 11:05AM »

Dunno. Maybe I am missing something. The original post said "the better the sound and feel, the more out of tune the harmonic series".
I adjust for each note accordingly, but within reason I would like it to be a predictable adjustment. Perhaps I I interpreted that quote wrong, but I would think if a professional player says something plays out of tune, it means that it is hard to either predict what adjustments need to be made, or that are notes that cannot be manipulated into correct pitch without sacrificing evenness of sound or tone quality in general.

Again, I am not sure but I think clarification is probably coming  :)

Clarification.... whilst I can correct the tuning of any pipe... in testing I try to just play in the centre of each harmonic and see where that leads.

Chris Stearn
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« Reply #34 on: Aug 23, 2017, 11:14AM »

Looking at your profile I am sure you can tell the difference. I bet your double is very slotted and unless your 70H has had a pipe change, that will be pretty loose in the slot. If you are a good musician you will find the old Conn easier to play in tune as you can blow it in tune. The slotted double you HAVE to adjust at the slide... and that is less instinctive.

Chris Stearn

I would like to think that I am a good musician. Or at least well on the way to becoming one.
I can honestly say that I personally find my 70h harder to play in almost every way. It hasn't had a pipe change (that I am aware of). I play it usually when I am doing chamber music with less brass, or sometimes if my principle is playing alto, I find the sound I make on it in those scenarios is quite nice and it's fun to shake things up every now and again.

I definitely do not find that is plays any better in tune than my bach. It could be partly that I am more comfortable on my bach though I'm not sure. I don't find myself adjusting the slide on my bach any more than my conn though, and I don't think that I consistently play out of tune.
The comment about slotting is probably right.... I didn't bring my conn to America so I can't double check and I have never really thought about that quality between them much.
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bigbassbone1

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« Reply #35 on: Aug 23, 2017, 11:46AM »

Clarification.... whilst I can correct the tuning of any pipe... in testing I try to just play in the centre of each harmonic and see where that leads.

Chris Stearn

Yeah I think that is clear. So that means you are saying the center of some notes are not in tune? I assume that means that you would have to sacrifice the quality or eveness of sound to manipulate the pitch to where it needs to be? My confusion was just In reading that it was a better sound even if it was more out of tune. I think I understand what you are saying now though.
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timothy42b
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« Reply #36 on: Aug 23, 2017, 12:41PM »

Yeah I think that is clear. So that means you are saying the center of some notes are not in tune? I assume that means that you would have to sacrifice the quality or eveness of sound to manipulate the pitch to where it needs to be?

Or move the slide, and retain the quality, is how I understood him. 
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Tim Richardson
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« Reply #37 on: Aug 23, 2017, 12:47PM »

Or move the slide, and retain the quality, is how I understood him. 

Yeah, that's how I interpret it.
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« Reply #38 on: Aug 23, 2017, 12:58PM »

The Holton 185 I have came without a leadpipe. Had there been one in it,I would have left it alone. I have a pile of pipes that I'm trying now. These boutique pipes are a bit pricey.
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bigbassbone1

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« Reply #39 on: Aug 23, 2017, 02:01PM »

Or move the slide, and retain the quality, is how I understood him. 

Maybe. But that won't do you much good if the best point of resonance is at a place on the slide where it's not in tune.
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