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Author Topic: Stearn's law of leadpipes  (Read 2820 times)
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hassein
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« Reply #40 on: Aug 23, 2017, 03:38PM »

The new Schatz pipe is fairly tight and might not be everyone's cup of tea or even work in every TR185. Personally I like the new style Schatz pipe in my TR185 and my Shires but that's just me.

If you're looking for a more standard Bach/Holton blow the BrassArk MV50B pipe plays VERY well and if you're looking for a more open blow his NY50B pipe plays fantastic! I have a friend who uses the NY50B in his TR180 and his horn plays amazing.

Maybe your TR185 did have a good stock leadpipe though... and it might be worth it just to keep using the stock leadpipe! Good!
Thanks-I'm an old guy(look at my profile)The Schatz pipe is nice in the middle and upper register,the low register feels very unfocused. No real pop on the trigger notes and pedal notes below Gflat don't lock. Thanks for the advice-
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« Reply #41 on: Aug 23, 2017, 05:32PM »

Maybe. But that won't do you much good if the best point of resonance is at a place on the slide where it's not in tune.

This doesn't make much sense. There's a best point of resonance for any given pitch, at 0c or 30c.
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« Reply #42 on: Aug 23, 2017, 06:25PM »

Mr. Deacon many of the stock Holton pipes are terrible. As someone who owns 3 TR 180s and have played numerous 185s I can tell you that all but one of the instruments I've played had useless stock pipes. So maybe not such a great idea to keep the original in most cases.  Good!
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« Reply #43 on: Aug 23, 2017, 06:39PM »

I thought about this for a while. Thinking back to the four Holtons I've owned and played none of them seemed funk to play in tune. Even the best one. Easy and predictable. And the other basses I've loved and mine now. maybe I need to look deeper but to me and people who listen and play with me my horns sound great and in tune.

Chris if you could elaborate. Is the out of tuneness linear? Is it always sharp or always flat on your favorite pipes? Different for different notes?
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« Reply #44 on: Aug 23, 2017, 06:49PM »

This doesn't make much sense. There's a best point of resonance for any given pitch, at 0c or 30c.

Ok. I guess I don't get it then.
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« Reply #45 on: Aug 23, 2017, 07:14PM »

Ok. I guess I don't get it then.

I think it's not clear, as well. I took this thread to mean:

The better the sound of a leadpipe, the less lined up (intonation / 12tet wise) the partials are. In other words, on tge better sounding pipes, the adjustments needed to play in tune are greater.

I think it could be inferred that these pipes might actually line up better in terms of pure harmonics than a pipe with partials that line up better 12tet wise.

I don't think that that was completely cleared up yet.
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« Reply #46 on: Aug 23, 2017, 07:38PM »

Ok. I guess I don't get it then.
You're thinking of a trombone like a trumpet. On a trumpet you want to adjust the least amount possible with your lips, so it's very desirable to have a trumpet where all the harmonics are in tune.

With a trombone we have a tuning slide in our hands so we dont need a instrument where the harmonics line up perfectly. Hence why a number of players in this tgread are saying having a good sound from a instrument is more desirable then having a horn where you have to adjust very little.
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« Reply #47 on: Aug 23, 2017, 10:43PM »

Chris, I'll bet you never imagined you'd have opened a can or worms like this.
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« Reply #48 on: Aug 23, 2017, 11:16PM »

Chris, I'll bet you never imagined you'd have opened a can or worms like this.

He probably didn't.... but that's half the fun of a forum like this isn't it? It would be boring if everyone agreed or completely understood.
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« Reply #49 on: Aug 23, 2017, 11:22PM »

You're thinking of a trombone like a trumpet. On a trumpet you want to adjust the least amount possible with your lips, so it's very desirable to have a trumpet where all the harmonics are in tune.

With a trombone we have a tuning slide in our hands so we dont need a instrument where the harmonics line up perfectly. Hence why a number of players in this tgread are saying having a good sound from a instrument is more desirable then having a horn where you have to adjust very little.

Yes I know what you are talking about, I was thinking of a different problem that I thought Chris Stearn was talking about but wasn't sure. I get the feeling it's probably too difficult to describe through written text though. At least for me.
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« Reply #50 on: Aug 23, 2017, 11:31PM »

Chris, I'll bet you never imagined you'd have opened a can or worms like this.

Oh, I did  :)
Let me put it another way....
If you play 20 different pipes in a trombone you will find that the tuning imperfections of that instrument, when put against a tuning meter, become apparent. Most pipes tend to go with those basic tuning characteristics but a few tend toward even greater pitch variation and a few others pull things toward the tuning meter. The pipes that are loose on pitch often sound the most interesting whilst the pipes that fix the tuning feel and sound less good.
Most of the better sounding pipes allow the player to adjust at the face without loss of quality and can therefore be made to play in tune... You just have to work at it. Even trombone players adjust at the face, not just with the slide.
That probably makes things even less clear... we shall see.

Chris Stearn
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« Reply #51 on: Aug 23, 2017, 11:51PM »

---
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« Reply #52 on: Aug 24, 2017, 07:15AM »

I'll add my interpretation here, to help muddy the waters even more.  If I were to visualize the 'slot' for any particular note, there are a lot of different shapes that come to mind for different horns.  Some are crisp canyons that are deep.  Some are small troughs that are also straight sided.  Some are a sharp V, some a shallow V, some a U, and some a wide shallow u... and on and on...  The 'best sound' for any given shape is at the bottom and the middle.  If the slope is odd shaped, or very wide, I find that it can be difficult (or rather, just require more effort and attention) to sit in that perfect location.  However, the rewards for those type of shapes is a sound that is more interesting to me.  I'll bet it doesn't matter to anybody on the other side of the bell, but to me it is more pleasing.

This, in a nutshell, is why I have gravitated to older horns.  Sure, there are quirks to figure out, there are places where you have to move the slide when you really shouldn't have to at all, but the sound is fun.  I didn't mean to go this route, but on both my tenor and my bass, with modular pieces the new ones just seem to keep getting pushed out.  I'm sure that in many ways they were better than what I roll out now.  Heck, I often still play the Edwards slide and leadpipe as it is easier to play on some really tricky stuff, but I enjoy myself more when I use the other stuff.

Cheers,
Andy
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« Reply #53 on: Sep 05, 2017, 07:36AM »

Chris, I am going to disagree about how the front of the horn is more important than the back.  I find that most players have a point in the horn that is the #1 thing that makes the horn work for them...maybe the mpc, the leadpipe, slide crook (shape and bore size), neckpipe and valves, tuning slide, bell throat and bell flare.  I think the players input matches the reflection at those points and that returns to the players the information they need.

Many are very mouthpiece sensitive...but the rest is just a megaphone.  I think leadpipes are confusing because many people expect that to fix...everything.  When it doesn't the seach for the holy grail continues while the really wanted a different crook...or something.

Except for the PDQ Bach types, no one plays just a leadpipe.  The trombone is either a complex system that requires fine tuning, or a compact chromatic funnel. If you have messed with 20 leadpipes and not found the winner, it's probably something else.
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« Reply #54 on: Sep 05, 2017, 11:50PM »

Chris, I am going to disagree about how the front of the horn is more important than the back.  I find that most players have a point in the horn that is the #1 thing that makes the horn work for them...maybe the mpc, the leadpipe, slide crook (shape and bore size), neckpipe and valves, tuning slide, bell throat and bell flare.  I think the players input matches the reflection at those points and that returns to the players the information they need.

Many are very mouthpiece sensitive...but the rest is just a megaphone.  I think leadpipes are confusing because many people expect that to fix...everything.  When it doesn't the seach for the holy grail continues while the really wanted a different crook...or something.

Except for the PDQ Bach types, no one plays just a leadpipe.  The trombone is either a complex system that requires fine tuning, or a compact chromatic funnel. If you have messed with 20 leadpipes and not found the winner, it's probably something else.

Well John, I still feel that in the light of my own personal experience both for my own work and from helping students that the leadpipe can be the critical element in creating a whole playing system that optimises playing function in mating the mouthpiece with the rest of the instrument.
Try 20 pipes and not find a good one ? Yup.... easy to do. Does that mean that a really good pipe for that player, mouthpiece and instrument does not exist ? Of course not. Finding the ideal pipe is not an easy job, but I think it can be an important job.
None of this is of any more than minor importance compared to practise..... and should never be a practise substitute.
It does make a difference though..... as does any part of an instrument.... but the mouthpiece/leadpipe combination is the big one for me.

Chris Stearn
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« Reply #55 on: Sep 06, 2017, 05:54AM »

I agree with both John and Chris (Ha!)

There are people out there that think the leadpipe will fix everything. An example:- I know a player who has 3 slides, all different in material in the tubes and crook. One of them plays well, and the other 2 play heavier and "slower". It's easy to see why, because the "heavier" slides "are" heavier. The "good" slide is yellow tube with nickel crook. Next in line is all yellow, followed by gold tube with yellow crook. The player wants the heavier slides to play the same as the good one, but the saying goes, "It is what it is". It would not matter what pipe is put in either of the other 2 slides, they will not play the same as the optimal one. (Ok, they may end up similar, but at what compromise?)

I actually think people get too "clingy" to mouthpieces. There are inherent sonic qualities to mouthpieces, but sometimes those qualities don't necessarily jive with the qualities inherent in a new instrument, or what is sought in performance. There are also players who will only play one type of bell construction/material, even though there may be other options that give them better results. "I like how this plays, but I want it to be different", is a commonly heard comment. Pre-conceived notions are rarely constructive.

M
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