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The Trombone ForumPractice BreakChit-ChatReligion(Moderator: bhcordova) WorldView: Christian Theism
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drizabone
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« on: Aug 21, 2017, 07:49PM »

Greetings fellow travellers through this world of ours.

This thread is one of a number of threads to discuss different perspectives people have of the world.  These perspecitives are called WorldViews.  My purpose in starting this series is to understand each others perspectives so I'm keen for you to fill out or correct the detail in the WorldView that correlates most closely with your perspective, or if you don't think there is one that matches you then start another.

This thread here explains whats going on:  http://tromboneforum.org/index.php/topic,101685.0.html

And the questions that I think give a good start to characterising the WorldViews are in item 15 of that thread.  (How do you link to a thread item?)

So here is what I think the WorldView: Christian Theism is.

God/ultimate reality:
   • Creator, infinite, personal, triune, rational.
   • Transcendent and immanent.
   • Sovereign and good.
Cosmos/prime reality:
   • Created ex nihilo.
   • Operates with a uniformity of cause and effect.
   • Open system (miracles possible through god’s immanence).
   • Fallen world.
Humans:
   • Created in the image of god
   • Possess self-transcendence, rationality, personality, morality, creativity,  sociability.
   • Originally good, now fallen but capable of redemption.
Knowledge/revelation:
   • Can have adequate knowledge of the world and god.
   • Available through general and special revelation.
Ethics:
   • Transcendent.
   • Based on the character of god as good (holy and loving).
   • Some ethical principles are universal (not relative).
   • Given by general and/or special revelation.
Death:
   • Gateway to eternity with or eternity separated from god.
   • Outcome determined by relationship with christ.
   • Individuality retained.
History:
   • Linear.
   • Meaningful.
   • Leading to the fulfillment of god’s purposes.
   • Guided by god’s providence and miraculous intervention.
« Last Edit: Aug 22, 2017, 04:35PM by drizabone » Logged
BillO
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« Reply #1 on: Aug 22, 2017, 10:08AM »

Comments - questions

God
You say God is rational in this WorldView.  Can you explain that to me?

Humans
You mention humans were originally good.  Which humans were?  If I recall my Genesis correctly, the very first humans were responsible for the fall.  Did we have undisclosed others before them that lived God's good life plan?

Knowledge
Adequate knowledge of the world and god?  So we are limited on a 'need to know' basis and must be happy with what is revealed to us?

Ethics
Ethics are transcendent?  What do you mean by this?
Based on God as good - but God is not always good and certainly did not follow Christian ethics, especially in the OT.

Death
Gateway to eternity with or eternity separated from god.  Is there any evidence of this, or is this taken on a leap of faith?
Outcome determined by relationship with christ.  So a Christian only club then - no matter how good you are in this world?

History
Leading to the fulfillment of god’s purposes. Which is?
Guided by god’s providence and miraculous intervention. The issue I have with this statement is that we have gone over numerous biblical accounts of god’s providence and miraculous intervention which never made it into the historical record at all.
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timothy42b
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« Reply #2 on: Aug 22, 2017, 01:25PM »



Humans
You mention humans were originally good.  Which humans were?  If I recall my Genesis correctly, the very first humans were responsible for the fall.  Did we have undisclosed others before them that lived God's good life plan?


This is one of those "depends" ones.

There are two creation stories in Genesis.

Traditional scholars say the editors just included both versions floating around, and there was only one event referred to.  This is my view.

Other more literal types are troubled by that interpretation and think there must have been two separate creations.  They ascribe various differences - one physical and one spiritual, one humanity and one jewish nation, et.  Lots of variations on this theme.  There are lots of reasons I don't think this makes sense, but the first story has mankind created male and female, and the Adam of clay, Eve of rib doesn't occur until the second story. 

John has cited a theory that the first story is a physical one and the second a sacred one, with Adam and Eve being the first priests rather than the first people. 
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drizabone
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« Reply #3 on: Aug 22, 2017, 02:51PM »

Comments - questions

God
You say God is rational in this WorldView.  Can you explain that to me?

Sure.

God is a rational being: he reasons logically.

This is the reason that we are rational and that the universe is logical, comprehensible and reasonable.

Quote
Humans
You mention humans were originally good.  Which humans were?  If I recall my Genesis correctly, the very first humans were responsible for the fall.  Did we have undisclosed others before them that lived God's good life plan?

Adam and Eve were the first humans in the WorldView, they may have been the actual first ones, or just the first significant ones.

Either way Adam and Eve were originally created good, but fell.

Being 'good' included the ability to sin.

Whether or no there were other undisclosed humans living concurrently or prior to Adam and Eve is not one of the axioms of this WorldView (IMO) but many others that hold this WV strongly disagree.  So information on any undisclosed others that may have existed is not defined and I don't know about them.

Quote
Knowledge
Adequate knowledge of the world and god?  So we are limited on a 'need to know' basis and must be happy with what is revealed to us?

We are able to know the world through our senses and reasoning ability (just like you)

But there is also information of God's nature and purpose that are not knowable apart from revelation.

I'll clear this up in my definition

Quote
Ethics
Ethics are transcendent?  What do you mean by this?
Based on God as good - but God is not always good and certainly did not follow Christian ethics, especially in the OT.

By transcendent, I mean that they are given to us from above, by God.

On the one hand God is good by definition, but I don't want or need to totally wimp out and hide behind that. Some bullet points of things I think:
- God is judge so can kill in that role, as do judges in a christian ethos.
- Good isn't the same as nice
- God probably means something like morally right, up to standard
- God gave us life and a world to live in, it can be argued that he has given us the best possible world
- God offers us a 'perfect' life once we have developed ourselves in this one.

Does and should God follow christian ethics?  Let me think about that. but my first thought is that Christian Ethics are derived from God's character so I would expect that his behaviour would be similar to what ours should be but there will be differences due to who we and he are.  eg all things belong to God (including life) so he is entitled to give it and take away.

Quote
Death
Gateway to eternity with or eternity separated from god.  Is there any evidence of this, or is this taken on a leap of faith?
Outcome determined by relationship with christ.  So a Christian only club then - no matter how good you are in this world?

- this is a first principle, axiomatic.  So no evidence apart from divine revelation which I know you don't count.
- we all have sinned and don't deserve to get into God's perfect sinless world

Quote
History
Leading to the fulfillment of god’s purposes. Which is?
Guided by god’s providence and miraculous intervention. The issue I have with this statement is that we have gone over numerous biblical accounts of god’s providence and miraculous intervention which never made it into the historical record at all.

- I'll get back to God's purposes.  I'll look for something succinct.
- That's not an issue for me.


Thanks for your questions.
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BillO
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« Reply #4 on: Aug 22, 2017, 05:31PM »

Thanks for the response Martin.  It makes it clearer.
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