Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length

 
Advanced search

1087340 Posts in 72018 Topics- by 19243 Members - Latest Member: CABurton159
Jump to:  
The Trombone ForumTeaching & LearningPractice Room(Moderator: blast) Certain brands/model horns difficult to play on?
Pages: [1]   Go Down
Print
Author Topic: Certain brands/model horns difficult to play on?  (Read 855 times)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
landok
*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: Mar 3, 2012
Posts: 27

View Profile
« on: Aug 24, 2017, 06:38AM »

Has anyone had any experience with certain trombones/brands that were difficult or harder to play on? I've  had my share of problems on the horn, but recently  I've noticed it's harder for  me to play on Conns. 48H and 6H to be exact.  Any similar experiences?
Logged
hyperbolica
*
Offline Offline

Location: Eastern US
Joined: Oct 19, 2014
Posts: 1465

View Profile
« Reply #1 on: Aug 24, 2017, 06:48AM »

Those two models are not generally considered hard to play at all. In fact, they're very popular models. I would consider very small bore instruments hard to play, like in the .460 range. Most brands offer a range of sizes and styles. If an entire brand were characterized as hard to play they wouldn't be around long. There might be something mechanically wrong with the horn, like a leak, damaged leadpipe, bad solder joint, big dent, an oreo cookie stuck in the bell, or something like that. But these would be potential problems with any horn, not specific to 48h or 6h.

Is there anything that you've found easy to play?

If you have mainly experience on larger bore horns, it is conceivable that the .500 bore (the bore of both 48 and 6h) might seem hard to play to you. If that's the case, just learn to use less air instead of trying to push a huge amount of air through the horn.
Logged
landok
*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: Mar 3, 2012
Posts: 27

View Profile
« Reply #2 on: Aug 24, 2017, 06:56AM »

I'm just saying they are difficult for ME to play on. Playing on a holton 69 as of now. Working for me. Just curious to know if anyone else had problems with certain horns.
Logged
svenlarsson

*
Offline Offline

Location: Enskede, Sweden.
Joined: Sep 15, 2001
Posts: 4562

View Profile WWW
« Reply #3 on: Aug 24, 2017, 07:06AM »

Unless there is something wrong with this particular horns, I say that it is difficult because you are not used to this horns.


Many players play Bach horns and disslike Conn horns. Other play Conn horns and disslika Bach horns.

If Conn players have to play Bach horns they will get used to them, and most often come to like them.

The same the other way around.

If you was use to the Conn horns you would probably think the the Holton was difficult.
Logged

Kanstul 1662. Bach 45B. Kanstul 1555. Besson Euphonium. Kanstul 66-S Tuba. Sackbuts in F/E/Eb Bb/A
And several horns I should sell.
hyperbolica
*
Offline Offline

Location: Eastern US
Joined: Oct 19, 2014
Posts: 1465

View Profile
« Reply #4 on: Aug 24, 2017, 07:15AM »

I've played a Holton 69, and to me, because it's a smaller horn, it's a little difficult to play. Maybe you favor the smaller horns. I've owned and really loved Holtons, Bachs, Conns, Kings, Olds, Kanstuls, I've played Shires, Edwards, etc. There is no one brand or model that is considered hard to play across the board. Unless you're talking about Bundy, Getzen The Dude, Chinese Junkophone, or generally crap student horns. There are people who don't like the way the Conn 44h Vocabell plays, or the way certain poorly assembled Bach 42s play, or maybe Conns from say 1972 - 2000, Kings from the 80s, some people make fun of Conn 10h or Coprion horns in general. But then some people don't like the way a Rath R3 responds. Or maybe any horn with a Lindberg or Thayer valve. But none of these are universal. You may find more than one person has something bad to say about any of these, but you may also find more than one person has something good to say.

What is it about the 48 and 6h that you don't like? Those are two of my favorites. Is it the blow, or a missing counterweight, or bad slides, or ergonomics, narrow slides, do they just sound different...?
Logged
landok
*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: Mar 3, 2012
Posts: 27

View Profile
« Reply #5 on: Aug 24, 2017, 07:23AM »

With those two horns I've notice, I have to blow lots of air to get the notes out. So much to the point, that I'm focusing too much on getting enough air I can't focus on anything else. Oddly it's those two horns. I've played on larger horns with ease compared to those.
Logged
Exzaclee

*
Offline Offline

Location: Edmond, OK
Joined: Mar 8, 2008
Posts: 6569
"Check out my new website!"


View Profile
« Reply #6 on: Aug 24, 2017, 07:26AM »

A horn being difficult to play on can be a result of many things. These are just general observations, may or may not apply to your situation. If I leave stuff out someone feel free to post other possibilities.

Damage - slide out of alignment, damaged/corroded/missing leadpipe, dents or other imperfections on "nodal points" that make some notes not speak well, dents in tuning slide, dents in neck pipe, dents in slide crook, improperly mounted bell from bad previous repair job... all sorts of mechanical issues can result in a horn that's hard to play. Spit valve leaking air can really screw up a horns' response. When I was in middle school, my first horn had a pencil stuck in the slide, something I didn't notice until my second year of band (8th grade.) After the pencil removal I raced from last to first chair and eventually decided to major in music in college. After over 20 years making peanuts playing the trombone, I wish I'd left the pencil in there.  :D

Bad construction - some horns are just bad designs. Many cheap foreign made horns are "copies" of good horns, but the copying wasn't done mindfully so you have something that superficially resembles a "good" horn but plays like crap. Also, even great horn models have the occasional "dog", assemblers can screw up and get big blobs of solder all over the damn place, a tuning slide can be just slightly out of alignment and screw up the response. Stuff happens.

Bad mouthpiece/person combination - I can't tell you what piece you're going to sound good on. I can tell you that if you normally play on one sized piece and get good results, but for some reason you use a different sized piece in another horn, you may have some issues. Some people can play multiple sizes and do well. I'm not one of those people. I like to use one size for everything except bass.

The horn just doesn't fit the way you like to play - I love kings, specifically King 2Bs from the early to mid 50s. I like the older Bachs (NY, MV, early corp. models) and like playing them in certain situations. I do not like them (generally, there are some exceptions) in big live loud situations, as they seem to back on me. Other players don't have this issue, I've come to the conclusion it's primarily the way I play the horn that accounts for this discrepancy. 10 guys can play the same horn and you'll have 10 opinions on what is good or bad about the horn. What's good for the goose isn't necessarily good for the other goose. If that was the case we'd all play the same thing.

You haven't yet gotten used to the horn: if you primarily play a large bore you may have trouble switching to a small bore and vice-versa. Also, two horns with the same bore size may play very differently for a variety of reasons. One may have a thicker bell making response seem/feel better when you're in a practice room but seem quieter in a loud playing situation because you aren't getting as much feedback from the horn (you can't hear yourself as well.) One may have a really light slide/bell combination designed for nimbleness and clarity, but if one is used to a heavy bell/slide combination, the lighter horn may seem too "lively", too prone to "breaking up", and hard to play in tune due to lighter horns often having a very flexible "slot".

You haven't learned how to play the horn at the level you need to be able to sound good on different equipment: many beginners assume that a good quality horn equals a good sound. This isn't really accurate. A good player will sound good on the crappiest horn provided it is mechanically sound. A good horn just makes sounding good easier. It won't necessarily be easier for everybody because we're all physiologically different and we all approach things a little differently. Some of the best vintage "jazz" horns I've played had weird tuning quirks, or truculent high ranges that required everything above high Bb to be played in alternate positions, or a low range that crapped out around low Bb. One of my favorite horns was a King 2B from the early 60s that I got in college. Amazing sound, buttery, so easy to play swing, bop and post bop on - it just had this "sound" - no SOUND! that was personal and rough and beautiful. I learned how to play on that horn so I knew where on the slide every note on the horn was. I had to, because there weren't 7 positions on it, there were 72! The little tuning quirks of the 2B were doubly magnified on that horn. A repair later revealed that the leadpipe was essentially gone, it had corroded away below where the collar was soldered in. Probably rode hard and put away wet by one of the previous owners.No wonder it was so open. Most people who tried that horn couldn't play it. I eventually sold it to someone (for $275, what I paid for it) who could sound good on it and loved it as much as I did. I wish I hadn't.  

Logged

Music is my mistress, and she plays second fiddle to no one!
www.zacleemusic.com
hyperbolica
*
Offline Offline

Location: Eastern US
Joined: Oct 19, 2014
Posts: 1465

View Profile
« Reply #7 on: Aug 24, 2017, 07:36AM »

With those two horns I've notice, I have to blow lots of air to get the notes out. So much to the point, that I'm focusing too much on getting enough air I can't focus on anything else. Oddly it's those two horns. I've played on larger horns with ease compared to those.

The 48h in particular converts air into a lot of sound. For me, it's the loudest trombone I've ever played. It's the one horn I would take for parades, playing outside, or destroying a fleet of clarinets. The 48 and 6 are I think pretty much the same internal geometry, but different materials and some cosmetic differences. A teacher might have something to say about embouchure or buzz or air efficiency. Those two models do take a good bit of air, but I see that as a good thing.

There's nothing wrong with a Holton 69. Great horns. Generally used for big band. I owned one for a short time. Do you have any reason to want to change from the Holton?

Logged
henrikbe
*
Offline Offline

Location: Norway
Joined: Nov 19, 2016
Posts: 13

View Profile
« Reply #8 on: Aug 24, 2017, 10:57AM »

A few months ago, I was in Bremen on a business trip, and I visited Laetzsch Custom Brass. I tried one of their typical German models, and I've never played anything similar (not that I've played that many trombones, anyway). It was so different from my Yamaha, much more difficult to play, but the sound was fantastic! I felt like I was sitting on a cloud and singing! If I had the money, I wouldn't hesitate buying it, even though it was a lot harder to play than a Yamaha.
Logged

Henrik
Full Pedal Trombonist

*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: Jun 16, 2009
Posts: 2983

View Profile
« Reply #9 on: Aug 24, 2017, 12:52PM »

The only hard instruments I've played where ones that are easy to play with the right approach. Mine was wrong. Very small bore trombones are like that for me. Or ones that play much differently than most. One extremely hot Yamaha was easy to get notes out of and play soft or loud, but it was very difficult to sound like anything but spitting fire. So that could be classified as hard to play if the goal was not fire.
Logged

We don't just embrace insanity here, we feel it up, french kiss it and then buy it a drink.
CJ
*
Offline Offline

Location: Raleigh, NC
Joined: Mar 19, 2003
Posts: 908

View Profile
« Reply #10 on: Aug 24, 2017, 01:36PM »

Has anyone had any experience with certain trombones/brands that were difficult or harder to play on? I've  had my share of problems on the horn, but recently  I've noticed it's harder for  me to play on Conns. 48H and 6H to be exact.  Any similar experiences?

I find that when playing a different horn, the most important thing that makes it "playable" or less playable is when there's a significant change in the resistance.  Either more or less than you're used to.  Resistance is dependent upon (1) the diameter of the bore (including mouthpiece and leadpipe) and (2) turbulence.  If your moving to a 6H/48H from a large bore tenor, yes the resistance will be more.  If you're comparing apples to apples (.500 bore), Damage, the sharpness of the crooks, the shape of the crooks, and corrosion can all contribute to turbulence that will create more or less resistance than you find in your normal instrument.

Many people find that certain trombones "back up" when playing loud.  This has mostly to do with increased turbulence leading to more resistance.  Personally, I find the 6H and 48H to be pretty middle of the road with regard to resistance and they tend not to back up at volume, but they can sound nasty!
Logged
JohnL
Edge Monster

*
Offline Offline

Location: Anaheim, CA, USA
Joined: Aug 1, 2004
Posts: 7197

View Profile WWW
« Reply #11 on: Aug 24, 2017, 01:54PM »

Some horns aren't a good match for some people. The sound the instrument wants to make just isn't the sound in your head, so it becomes a battle of wills between you and a hunk of metal (hint: the hunk of metal never gets tired and has no interest in meeting you halfway). If you're in a situation like that, playing becomes hard work.
Logged

Question change.
Embrace progress.
Take the time to learn the difference.
schlitzbeer
*
Offline Offline

Location: Bremerton, WA
Joined: Oct 2, 2012
Posts: 215

View Profile
« Reply #12 on: Aug 24, 2017, 10:18PM »

Has anyone had any experience with certain trombones/brands that were difficult or harder to play on? I've  had my share of problems on the horn, but recently  I've noticed it's harder for  me to play on Conns. 48H and 6H to be exact.  Any similar experiences?

Yep, I don’t play well on small bore horns. I’m 6’11” with a large frame. I have a Conn 72h which is a ergonomic nightmare. The smaller people around 5’8” 150-192lbs are probably able to pull 2B off the shelf without ergonomic modifications. More power to them, and size 10 shoes are on sale at Walgreen’s. Try to find a horn you sound good on. Then take it to a tech and get it ergonomically correct for you. Best money I’ve ever spent was getting the trigger modified to fit my hand. Yep, it’s a hunk of metal that doesn’t care.
Logged
Torobone

*
Offline Offline

Location: Toronto area
Joined: Sep 7, 2009
Posts: 2173

View Profile WWW
« Reply #13 on: Aug 27, 2017, 09:43AM »

Some people think heavy horns are hard to hold for long periods, and then playing becomes difficult. I've experienced that with double trigger bass bones and occasionally with poorly balanced tenors.

Depending on how you play, some horns have certain notes that are tough to get. About 40 years ago, I'd always try a high Ab on a horn. I would dismiss any horn where that note didn't work for me. This can be a brand thing, but also an individual example of just about any trombone.
Logged

Martin Hubel
Yamaha 891Z & 830 Xeno bass (both played regularly) , '74 Bach 42B, Yamaha 322 bass
BGuttman
Mad Chemist

*
*
Offline Offline

Location: Londonderry, NH, USA
Joined: Dec 12, 2000
Posts: 51144
"Almost Professional"


View Profile
« Reply #14 on: Aug 27, 2017, 09:54AM »

I had never liked Bach horns, but I bought a 36C used.  When it came in the slide was very scratchy and it felt very stuffy.  I had heard about Bach F-attachments being stuffy, so I tried it with the straight part.  Still stuffy.  So I looked in the tuning slide.  One leg was gummed up with lanolin to the point where there was only a 1/8" hole.  No wonder it was stuffy!  I cleaned out the lanolin deposit and gave the slide a bath.  The slide gave me green milk (ugh!).  With the slide cleaned up and no lanolin gumming up the tuning slide the thing plays great.  It's now my go-to horn when I'm not sure what I'm playing (provided it's not bass trombone).
Logged

Bruce Guttman
Solo Trombone, Hollis Town Band
Merrimack Valley Philharmonic Orch. President 2017-2018
Pages: [1]   Go Up
Print
Jump to: