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The Trombone ForumHorns, Gear, and EquipmentMouthpieces(Moderators: BGuttman, Doug Elliott) How do you guys tell when it's time to change mouthpiece sizes?
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trb420
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« on: Aug 25, 2017, 08:33PM »

I'm considering experimenting with some new mouthpieces, and I wanted to know what signs in your playing you've experienced that signify that it's time to change. I'm not running into any specific issues with my current mouthpiece, but I've played some with slightly larger rims that felt very comfortable and easy. As always, any and all information is appreciated
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« Reply #1 on: Aug 25, 2017, 08:55PM »

Right before I switched to a DE 104N rim for tenors I was playing an old Bach 9 for my small bores. I went to him thinking about a similar sized rim but different under parts. Just looking for a different sound that I wasn't getting with other mouthpieces. I didn't even know I needed something different. I was even playing some similar sized rims on large bores and euphonium and playing on those didn't allude to the idea that I needed a bigger rim.

I would say that the first clue for you may be that larger pieces are working well for you. Or maybe those pieces are working better in different ways...  Idea!
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« Reply #2 on: Aug 26, 2017, 07:24AM »

If, while experimenting with wider rims/larger mps aspects of your playing get easier, it may be time to switch to a wider rim/larger mp. I know that's a very simplistic way of looking at it but this subject need not be complicated.
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« Reply #3 on: Aug 26, 2017, 07:32AM »

I know it's time to change when I can't do what it is I want to do and have no hope of being able to anytime soon. That said, I'll swap out during a session, when the genre of the music changes drastically. IOW's, one size/config for church brass ensemble work and one size/config for "jazz" work. Staying on the same rim size and switching out cup/stem sizes just doesn't work as well for me as some say it should. Size matters and I like a certain rim size feel for some genres vs others.

Ask this question again in a few years. The responses then might be different. Things evolve for individual players and things evolve for trombone-playing in general.

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« Reply #4 on: Aug 26, 2017, 09:07AM »

I'm considering experimenting with some new mouthpieces, and I wanted to know what signs in your playing you've experienced that signify that it's time to change. I'm not running into any specific issues with my current mouthpiece, but I've played some with slightly larger rims that felt very comfortable and easy. As always, any and all information is appreciated

I am not entirely sure that there is necessarily any particular "time" to change mouthpiece sizes. Changing sizes...especially rims...is one way to solve certain playing problems. There are also other ways for most of us. I am "most naturally comfortable" on a 6/5-ish rim. It is the size that I played from the time I got serious about playing the tenor trombone until a number of years after I became a NYC pro. I also played orcheral-sized tuba equipment during much of that time...believing the "one natural size" idea and also being initially uncomfortable on other sizes of tenor trombone m'pce,

I worked the 6.5 idea as far as I could take it in terms of ranges and endurance. When (after a good 4 years or more of effort) I concluded that to be the kind of lead player I wanted to be I had to downsize the rim...I had already had 6.5 rims put on smaller, more mainstream lead m'pces...I decided to get stubborn and try to deal with an 11C. (The best-sounding and playing smaller m'pce...for me at the time...that I could find.) Very soon after doing so the switch eliminated much of the undue effort I was making in the higher ranges...tuned them up, too,...while creating other problems in the lower 2nd partial.

OK...an acceptable trade-off for me at the time. And...I fairly well eliminated those problems using Carmine Caruso exercises over a period of months. It still didn't "BOOM!!!" down there as had the 6.5s, but in the context of what I was doing it was just fine.

And understanding what had happened, I started to play bs. tbn. and tuba again.

What had happened?

I had adjusted my shift points. A lower range shift point that had been happening lower on my larger rim needed to happen higher on the 11 rim. Duh. And on the larger bs. tbn. and tuba rims? It needed to happen lower than on the smaller rims. Duh twice!!!

Now that is not to say that larger rims...which are the most common m'pce switch for us, apparently...are not for everybody or do not work well. They do. It depends on ow much extreme range playing (either direction) you are trying to do. To take it to ridiculous lengths, a bs. tbn or tuba-sized rim for a dedicated lead player can be done...but at what cost? I suppose an 11 rim can be tamed to be as least passable in the trigger and pedal ranges, but again...at what cost?

Sure, there are (and have been) principal trombonists in major symphonies playing on very large rims with wonderful high ranges in their idioms, but I do not think that on the third set of a good Basie-style orchestra, the fifth set of a good dance band orchestra (Yes, Virginia...it happens. I play lead on one about 7 gigs a year in NYC.) or the 17th FF mambo on a good latin gig that those players would still be functioning on a very high level.

So...the end result of this idea?



Get the right tool(s) for the job(s), and then learn how to use them.

You don't use a sledgehammer on carpet tacks...at least you shouldn't...and you don't use a tackhammer breaking rocks.

Jimmy Knepper's m'pce advice?

"Use the smallest m'pce on which you have a good low E."

Caveats?

Sure.

#1-If low E is the lowest note that you are expected to play well.

and

#2-Your own definition of the word "good."

Jimmy played a small shank 6.5AL on a Bach 36 slide/42 bell. He sounded great on everything...including lead...but he was almost never hired as a lead player. Why? His timbre was not "lead-like" by the standards of the day.

His choice.

We all have to make them.

Later...

S.
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« Reply #5 on: Aug 26, 2017, 12:11PM »

When I pick up my bass trombone.  Other than that I use the same size rim on all my other trombones, but I make changes to the cup and back bore depending on what horn/seat/music I'm playing. From C cup and #2 shank on a .500 horn for jazz lead to an H cup and a #8 shank on a .547 horn for symphonic/concert band middle chairs.  For end seats (3rd or 4th) I'll use my bass trombone.  On that I use the DE equivalent of a Dennis Wick 0AL.  It's the only rim size change I make.

I'm using the Doug Elliot system to make this possible.

Over time thought I have made continually increasing changes to my MP size.  I started out on a 12C but once my skills grew I found my tone a little thin and switched over to a 6.5AL.  This facilitated my moving over to a large bore trombone too.  Back then I had alto, small bore tenor and large bore tenor trombones so I switched over to a Yamaha 48.  It was available in a variety of cup depths and shanks but kept a constant rim size/shape.  After not playing for a couple of decades I came back and found the Yamaha 48 rim to be too small for my embouchure.  It felt cramped and caused early fatigue.  Like my lip muscles were being pinched at the edges.  Searching around for the right mouthpiece got to be expensive until I got into Doug's system.
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« Reply #6 on: Aug 26, 2017, 02:46PM »

I haven't done as much strict orchestral playing as I'd like to, but several times I have been paid to do orchestral rehearsals where I sat for two solid hours counting rests, without playing a single note before we were dismissed for a coffee break.

Mouthpiece? What orchestral mouthpiece? I didn't even get to blow the horn once.
In an orchestra you might play for 10% to 15% of any performance time, if the program is a heavy brass program. There is the difference between orchestra playing and most other ensembles, and yet, the profs are all orchestral players........
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« Reply #7 on: Aug 26, 2017, 03:32PM »

I haven't done as much strict orchestral playing as I'd like to, but several times I have been paid to do orchestral rehearsals where I sat for two solid hours counting rests, without playing a single note before we were dismissed for a coffee break.

Mouthpiece? What orchestral mouthpiece? I didn't even get to blow the horn once.
In an orchestra you might play for 10% to 15% of any performance time, if the program is a heavy brass program. There is the difference between orchestra playing and most other ensembles, and yet, the profs are all orchestral players........

For the people who might not be as clever as others on the forum, what has this got to do with the current topic?
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« Reply #8 on: Aug 26, 2017, 05:43PM »

It's time to change mouthpiece when A) hell freezes over or B) your teacher says its time, C)  Or if you change horns D)  some other change, like dental issues. Don't be too anxious to make changes like that. If you had a teacher set you up with your current kit, learn to play it. I made 3 changes in 40 some years of playing. First change was from whatever was with my rental King 605 to the Remington that came with my 88h. In high school my teacher changed me to a 5g. In my second year of college I changed to a Schilke 52e2 (playing 6 hours a day), and then 3 years ago (after 10 years off the horn) I started with a Doug Elliott setup. Ok, that's 4 changes.  Each change was painful and required a lot of practice. Don't change because you think you're bored or your friend is using something different and you think you're missing something. Take lessons and practice hard. And play what you've got.
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« Reply #9 on: Aug 26, 2017, 08:23PM »

Don't listen to these patzers (this post is a joke, disclaimer!!). It's always time to change your mouthpiece. There is no problem that can't be fixed with a shiny new mouthpiece.

That's why the greats all have their own signature mouthpiece. They had to start practicing at some point. Once you get your own signature piece, the only way to switch mouthpieces is to get a different maker to make an even more signature version. So you start practicing at that point.
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« Reply #10 on: Aug 26, 2017, 10:01PM »

Skip the guesswork and get a lesson with Doug Elliott.
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« Reply #11 on: Aug 27, 2017, 12:51AM »

I started on 12c then was adviced to shift to 7C and later to a 4C and 6 1/2AL and finally at 18 on a Denis Wick 6BL. NO change made my playing better in the long run, because the technique was not right, but all changes felt good in the beginning at the lips. More room for the vibration felt nice.  Yes, sound was a little improved in the beginning (behind the mouthpiece. What about in front?  Don't know), but articulation was not better and range was not better either. Playing a melody was still a struggle.

For some emboushures high register seem to work better with larger rims ( Don't know ), but for other emboushures like mine the only thing that helpt was hard work on the mouthpiece changes and the techniqe. When you can play any rim, any cup, any mouthpiece, then you can switch depending on what music you play, what part you play, who you are playing with, and what instrument you choose to play at the moment. Register and articulation workes on any mouthpiece. You can also choose NOT to change mouthpiece. Whatever works best.

Yesterday I played first on a four hour dance gig. Four sets of LOUD electrified accompangement and a full big band with a singer. We blow our brains out on rock/pop/func and soul music. I gave ALL I had to be heard. The wind-players had NO mics. It was a struggle to go through the wall of bass, heavy rock guitar, electrical piano and heavy drums. I think I have never played louder for four full hours. Nuances were from f to fff at least. A friend in the audience said he could hardly hear us. The dance-party loved the band. I was okay after those hours. I don't think I had been okay if I had played that gig on a large bore with a large mouthpiece. With my 2b+ and my 6 3/4C I could have played a couple of hours more, and the parts where mostly in this range the whole night.  and a lot of the heavy work above 

When you know this is what to expect from a gig it is wise to pick the right tool for that job. If this would be my everyday playing I would need to change to something more brutal, but with the equipment I used I did okey. I guess mics had solved everything or else a bigger backbore might have helped volume, but this is not my every day gig.

I guess the answer to your question could be: either you change to another size and see if your playing is improved by it or you take the advice from a teacher and see if your technique needs a change. Maybe a mouthpiece change can help when you acctually are making big changes in your technique because then you expect it to feel differently at the lips anyhow and can't fall back in to the bad habits as easy (maybe?). You get a new fresh start at your emboushure. That could probably be good in some cases.

/Tom
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« Reply #12 on: Aug 27, 2017, 04:06AM »

I started on 12c then was adviced to shift to 7C and later to a 4C and 6 1/2AL and finally at 18 on a Denis Wick 6BL. NO change made my playing better in the long run, because the technique was not right, but all changes felt good at the very beginning at the lips. More room for the vibration felt nice.  Yes, sound was a little improved in the beginning (behind the mouthpiece. What about in front?  Don't know), but articulation was not better and range was not better either. Playing a melody was still a struggle.

For some emboushures high register seem to work better, but for other emboushures like mine the only thing that helpt was hard work on the mouthpiece changes and the techniqe. When you can play any rim, any cup, any mouthpiece, then you can switch depending on what music you play, what part you play, who you are playing with, and what instrument you choose to play at the moment. Register and articulation workes on any mouthpiece. You can also choose NOT to change mouthpiece. Whatever works best.

I guess the answer to your question could be: either you change and see if your playing is improved by it or you take the ad ice from a teacher and see if your technique needs a change. Maybe a mouthpiece change can help when you are making big changes in uour technique because then you expect it to feel differently at the lips and can't fall back at bad habits as easy. You get a new fresh start at your emboushure. That could be good ib some cases.

/Tom

Bravo!  Good!

A player ought to sound good on ANY mpc. Then the decision is; what kind  of good sound does the player want and what trade-offs is he willing to make to get it.

The mpc and/or the horn may cover some flaws. Isn't it better to correct those flaws and then see what the mpc/horn combo can really do for you?

...Geezer
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« Reply #13 on: Aug 27, 2017, 05:06AM »

Bravo!  Good!

A player ought to sound good on ANY mpc. Then the decision is; what kind  of good sound does the player want and what trade-offs is he willing to make to get it.

The mpc and/or the horn may cover some flaws. Isn't it better to correct those flaws and then see what the mpc/horn combo can really do for you?

...Geezer

You are absolutely correct, at least this is also my belief in general, maybe I would not say anyone could literately sound at his best on ANY mouthpiece because there are some very strange old mouthpieces out there. I would say the most common probably could be learned by most. I have some mouthpieces at home. Strange mouthpieces with
VERY thick rims and some with very thin rims, they are far from the mouthpieces I'm thinking of; 15E, 12E, 12C, 7C, 11C, 6 3/4C, 4C and 6 1/2 AL. The edge and the thickness of the rim is more important to the lip and technique than size of the rim, to my experience. There is not much talk about this though.

/Tom
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« Reply #14 on: Aug 27, 2017, 05:31AM »

Just to echo and distill:

Your sound concept shapes your physical choices. You need to listen more and decide how you want to sound. Then you need to work with other people listening and find equipment that helps you obtain that sound the most efficiently. You're looking for the greatest sound with the least effort.

Also, print what Sam Burtis said and stash it in your case along your mouthpieces. Any time you get the experimentation bug, read what he said first. We are all, collectively, indebted to his endless tank of wisdom.
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« Reply #15 on: Aug 27, 2017, 06:24AM »

Another answer for the guy who didn't like my answer about orchestral players not needing any mouthpieces at all just to count rests for hours without playing:

I've worked for 35 years with a great trumpet player in big bands and small groups. He has a Pro-Tec mouthpiece pouch that might hold 8 or 10, on his belt. He has another one on the floor, along with 8 or more mutes, and at least 3 Bb trumpets, and flugel and Eb trumpet for every job.

At one point my trumpet player friend carried a double trumpet case-- with one spot for a horn replaced by a plank with holes drilled into it to hold 50 mouthpieces.

When does HE find it necessary to change mouthpiece size? Every *&%@%$^@#%&^$ time he empties the spit from his horn. And he changes horns twice a tune.
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« Reply #16 on: Aug 27, 2017, 06:55AM »

Another answer for the guy who didn't like my answer about orchestral players not needing any mouthpieces at all just to count rests for hours without playing:

I've worked for 35 years with a great trumpet player in big bands and small groups. He has a Pro-Tec mouthpiece pouch that might hold 8 or 10, on his belt. He has another one on the floor, along with 8 or more mutes, and at least 3 Bb trumpets, and flugel and Eb trumpet for every job.

At one point my trumpet player friend carried a double trumpet case-- with one spot for a horn replaced by a plank with holes drilled into it to hold 50 mouthpieces.

When does HE find it necessary to change mouthpiece size? Every *&%@%$^@#%&^$ time he empties the spit from his horn. And he changes horns twice a tune.

Serious question here. Why is that a concern for any of us trombone-players? The physics of a trumpet are different. We have our own set of concerns as trombone players. While I greatly admire some trumpet players, I wouldn't be any more prone to turn to them for advice on mechanics than I would an oboe player. An oboe player can change their reed every few minutes if they want to. I'll change my mpc when I know it's time for me to do so and I think Sam has a good handle on that. It may or may not coincide with when my trumpet-playing friends do it, though.

I really don't see Forumites, as a common practice, copying and pasting points from the Trumpet Herald here for us to ponder as trombone-players and I think there is a very good reason for it.

I don't meant to "pile on" or anything. Perhaps you are making a complete aside. People do. Otherwise I don't get it.

Again.  Don't know

...Geezer
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« Reply #17 on: Aug 27, 2017, 07:06AM »

Serious question here. Why is that a concern for any of us trombone-players? The physics of a trumpet are different. We have our own set of concerns as trombone players. While I greatly admire some trumpet players, I wouldn't be any more prone to turn to them for advice on mechanics than I would an oboe player. An oboe player can change their reed every few minutes if they want to. I'll change my mpc when I know it's time for me to do so and I think Sam has a good handle on that. It may or may not coincide with when my trumpet-playing friends do it, though.

I really don't see Forumites, as a common practice, copying and pasting points from the Trumpet Herald here for us to ponder as trombone-players and I think there is a very good reason for it.

Again.  Don't know

...Geezer

I don't think trumpet players are much different from tromboneplayers. Trumpet parts are highly different in character. Maynard Ferguson kind of parts, fourth trumpet parts, parts that blend with a trombone or a sax or for Eb-trumpet or C-Trumpet. Most trumpet players who are very all round carry different mouthpieces because different needs. It could be even more important on trumpet.

The change is also psychological, and I doubt a listener could hear the difference of every one of those 50 mouthpieces, but what's important is what the guy who play them think. He probably has a reason for every change he does and that is affecting him, so he plays differently. A lot of these things are subtle, and only noticed by the player of course.

/Tom
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« Reply #18 on: Aug 27, 2017, 07:27AM »

I don't think trumpet players are much different from tromboneplayers. Trumpet parts are highly different in character. Maynard Ferguson kind of parts, fourth trumpet parts, parts that blend with a trombone or a sax or for Eb-trumpet or C-Trumpet. Most trumpet players who are very all round carry different mouthpieces because different needs. It could be even more important on trumpet.

The change is also psychological, and I doubt a listener could hear the difference of every one of those 50 mouthpieces, but what's important is what the guy who play them think. He probably has a reason for every change he does and that is affecting him, so he plays differently. A lot of these things are subtle, and only noticed by the player of course.

/Tom

Don't know Tom. You may be right. But I see extremely fine trumpet players dipping their heads for low notes, puffing their cheeks out and gyrating the horn all around on their chops. I wouldn't dream of imitating any of that! Anyway, I have enough to worry about, without seeking mechanical help from very fine non-doubling trumpet-players. lol OTOH, if I get instruction from someone who plays light's-out trombone AND trumpet - then I think he knows what, if anything, to separate.

But I think you have a good point about only the player being able to tell the difference. I'm using a Bach small-shank 5G mpc in my King 4B/F for church ensemble play. I feel it has a much more romantic sound than any other combo I can come up with. I received some really nice compliments last year on my use of a King 3B/F with a Bach 7 and yet I believe I can greatly improve upon that, so I felt it was time - at least on that size horn - to make a switch. But is it lost to other ears in the blend? Maybe!!!!!! Would my Bach 7 in that 4B/F sound just as nice to ensemble-mates? Again, maybe!!!! However, as you mentioned, if the player feels more solid after making a switch, then how can that be a bad thing.

Now here is where the plot - like my gravy - thickens, Tom. Can I aspire to obtain the same type of more romantic sound on my King 3B/F with a Bach 7C mpc as I can on my 4B/F with a 5G? I  Don't know but I feel that since I now know what it is and how to obtain it on one set-up, it may be possible to - in part - transfer it. And that brings me to another point. I feel it can sometimes be beneficial for me to switch a mpc. Then develop some more and end up right back on the mpc I started with. Could the improvement have been done without the switching? Perhaps. But like pursuing high range, it may be best sometimes to attack a problem from multiple angles.   

I see the most peculiar (to me) combinations sometimes. Once-upon-a-time, I saw a section-mate use a Bach 12C in a 42B! But he sounded pretty good, so more power to him. Not what I would chose, but so what.

...Geezer
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« Reply #19 on: Aug 27, 2017, 10:00AM »

The real answer from Alain Trudel, global soloist and recording artist, also Yamaha R&D guy, inventor of the Yamaha Signature Series Trudel mouthpiece:

He was asked in a masterclass I attended in year 2000 if a student would gain advantage by purchasing a Trudel model mouthpiece. Trudel told the student to buy a Bach 6 1/2AL, and practice daily until there was absolutely no silver plating left on the rim, then the student would be the master and could decide for themselves what they needed. That would take 8 hours a day practice for 20 years.

I included the post about the loonie trumpets I work with. Trumpet players with mouthpiece addictions have profs who were addicts. It is bred into them. I illustrate the lunacy that goes on for decades.
One of the big reasons for this is the reams of students cranked out by the great Armando Ghitala, ex-principal trumpet of the Boston Symphony. He also had a two trumpet case, with space in the vacant half for piles of three piece mouthpieces- separate rims, cups and shanks.
SOUND FAMILIAR ANYONE?

Then again, Ghitala was principal in Boston, and chose to play almost everything on D trumpet. A D trumpet with a rotary valve built into the tuning slide that that put the horn into C for the notes that were bad notes on D trumpet.
Did I mention he played principal in Boston and was a living God?

On the other hand, my friend with 50 mouthpieces at every gig did a series of shows with the great Arnie Chykoski. ( Not an American so it doesn't matter what Arnie ever said......) Arnie was asked what he played on, and he didn't know. It came with the horn he bought in high school. It was a Mt Vernon Bb trumpet with a Mt Vernon 7C. He had no idea what he played on-- he was too busy being the #1 session player in Canada and was working 12 hours a day in the studio and on shows playing screaming lead.
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« Reply #20 on: Aug 27, 2017, 10:22AM »

Marsh, you just described the two extremes of musicians.  One is always looking for the perfect piece of gear to make his job easiest.  The other just makes music on whatever he happens to have.  Jack Teagarden was one of the latter.  He could make a garden hose sound great.  I think most of us are somewhere in the middle.  I know my limits are not my equipment; it's my abilities.  So replacing my trombone won't make me play any better.  I think the same applies to most of the kids on this board.  But if they think a new mouthpiece/horn/mute will solve a problem, maybe it will.  There's a lot of placebo effect for those of us not at the top of the heap.  But the important thing about a placebo is that you have to believe it will work.
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Bruce Guttman
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« Reply #21 on: Aug 27, 2017, 10:42AM »

Marsh, you just described the two extremes of musicians.  One is always looking for the perfect piece of gear to make his job easiest.  The other just makes music on whatever he happens to have.  Jack Teagarden was one of the latter.  He could make a garden hose sound great.  I think most of us are somewhere in the middle.  I know my limits are not my equipment; it's my abilities.  So replacing my trombone won't make me play any better.  I think the same applies to most of the kids on this board.  But if they think a new mouthpiece/horn/mute will solve a problem, maybe it will.  There's a lot of placebo effect for those of us not at the top of the heap.  But the important thing about a placebo is that you have to believe it will work.

Thanks for the translation, interpretation Bruce.

For me, sometimes a change of equipment - mpc in this  thread - is not a matter of "make me play any better". Usually it's a matter of allowing me to play more appropriately
in a given situation. Only practice with expert instruction will help me to play better. That, combined with inspiration.

...Geezer
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« Reply #22 on: Aug 28, 2017, 04:31PM »

A couple of years ago, I attended the Alessi Sem in Eugene (as an auditor). For the last few days of the week, Christan Griego was there with his mouthpieces. At the time, I was on a GB 5.5 (I think), which I found a little big. I tried a couple of CG's mpcs on my own - I recall being disappointed in a 55. I finally got Christan's attention and, after hearing my concerns and hearing me play, he handed me a mpc that immediately felt and played much better than the GB.  It was his G-A 4C, which, given its rim dimension and relatively shallow cup, was not something I would have thought to try.

I bought it and played it for a year before a brief flirtation with a Schilke 51 (following a blindfolded Pepsi challenge which served to demonstrate you can distinguish between mpcs easier than you think) and a bit longer with a DE setup. I'm now in a Griego Oft (thanks RMT!) which is similar to the 4C and with which I am very happy (for now).

Moral of the story is, I think, you may have to kiss a lot of 🐸s to find your 👑. Your teacher may or may not be of much help. Guidance from someone like CG or DE can be very helpful if it can be arranged.
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« Reply #23 on: Aug 28, 2017, 10:06PM »

Marsh, you just described the two extremes of musicians.  One is always looking for the perfect piece of gear to make his job easiest.  The other just makes music on whatever he happens to have.  Jack Teagarden was one of the latter.  He could make a garden hose sound great.  I think most of us are somewhere in the middle.  I know my limits are not my equipment; it's my abilities.  So replacing my trombone won't make me play any better.  I think the same applies to most of the kids on this board.  But if they think a new mouthpiece/horn/mute will solve a problem, maybe it will.  There's a lot of placebo effect for those of us not at the top of the heap.  But the important thing about a placebo is that you have to believe it will work.

I have it on eyewitness account that Teagarden was so fussy about his m'pces that he carried a lathe in his car when traveling. He also went through I do not know how many different horns. He was one of the former, not one of the latter.

At one point during his long and fruitful career, he was playing a Reynolds horn with a big "R"-shaped balance weight.



Someone asked him what the "R" stood for, and he answered "Rotten!!!"

Like dat.

S.
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« Reply #24 on: Aug 29, 2017, 01:14AM »

A m/p change may be necessary when playing with a new horn, to help fit it into an existing musical environment. I might consider a change if I could find a m/p that was slightly wider, a little less deep, with a V cup and that had a bigger throat, but with the same rim as my Wick 9BS.

Thankfully I live a long way from music stores and temptation..
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« Reply #25 on: Aug 29, 2017, 04:37AM »

Mouthpieces can give frustration when we are not sure what we should use. Most of us have been there. I have definetly been there. Its of course important to find one we like and suit our anatomy. Once we find that one its best to stay and develop.

I would suggest to read a little bit in the tread where Sam tell how to choose. Its one of the sticky treads up in front here.

When to change is difficult to say. If it works well and we develop keep it. If you get a new horn its maybe time to look for one that fits the horn. Difficult to say, the answer is in the end inside our self.


Leif

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« Reply #26 on: Aug 29, 2017, 05:36AM »

The answer has to be put in the context of the musical maturity of the OP. Young students can be impatient and are not served well by making a change every time they can save enough money to buy another mouthpiece. At the same time I would not lecture a seasoned pro or even semi pro about gear or anything else really. You can't apply the same answer to every body.
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« Reply #27 on: Aug 29, 2017, 08:50AM »

I have been playing around with mouthpieces a bit, and I think it is sometimes necessary when you get a new horn.  I play a 6H but recently acquired new slide for it from another manufacturer.  The same mouthpiece on one was terrible on the other and vice versa.  So, to answer the question I think it makes a lot of sense to change when you're looking to get the best sound out of your trombone.  As a caveat, I would suggest for a young person that they don't change their mouthpiece unless their teacher suggests it.
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« Reply #28 on: Aug 29, 2017, 09:48AM »

I tend to think of changes in equipment as having varying degrees of detriment instead of a +/- scale of better or worse. Or better put, I'm me 100% of the time.  Some horns take away very little of that and some horns take away more of that.  E.g. the Shires I play on that I've spent years assembling parts and mouthpieces for has very little detriment to my playing. The Indian made cupronickel student horn with an off brand 12C has a high level of detriment. But the amount of musical stuff I can do on it is still, say 80%. ---These numbers, of course, being subjective.

I think a lot of players who swap equipment have the same mentality, though they might indicate so in different manners. E.g. Harrison's recent thread on using a shallower cup for solo playing.  They're seeking to have less of a detriment to their playing, not a panacea that will make them sound like player x without practicing.

So realistically, you don't know when is the "right time" to switch because you can't test any alternative scenarios.  In general, if you find something that holds you back less, then by all means use it.  I found that the moment Doug handed me a 104N rim.  I don't know how/if Doug knew that I was 'ready' for that size, but it worked and its still the rim I use to this day for all my tenor playing.

The points about different horns are also relevant in my estimation too.  Every horn I've played wants something slightly different, at least on the bottom (cup/shank).  I match the rim to my face and the bottom to the horn. 
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« Reply #29 on: Aug 29, 2017, 11:50AM »

When Doug Elliott tells you to. :)
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« Reply #30 on: Aug 29, 2017, 12:23PM »

OK Luke, it's time for you to change back to one of mine. Evil
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