Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length

 
Advanced search

1080942 Posts in 71553 Topics- by 19061 Members - Latest Member: Solitario85
Jump to:  
The Trombone ForumTeaching & LearningPractice Room(Moderator: blast) Have you ever felt that your lips aren't "flexible" enough?
Pages: [1]   Go Down
Print
Author Topic: Have you ever felt that your lips aren't "flexible" enough?  (Read 583 times)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
sirisobhakya
*
Offline Offline

Location: Hiroshima, Japan
Joined: Jun 7, 2009
Posts: 17

View Profile
« on: Sep 02, 2017, 11:47PM »

A weird question, I know. But that is what I feel right now.

I was a returning bass trombonist after almost 10 years hiatus. But even now that I have played for around 1 year (once or twice a week), my lower range reaches only pedal Ab (sometimes G but not consistently). Since yesterday I decided to start practicing long tone to extend it, and I noticed that I can in fact reach pedal F and even Eb, but I have to use the inner side of my lips, the very soft one that is normally in contact with teeth and gum, to make it sound. I have to open my mouth wide and seal the outer lips on the mouthpiece rim, letting the inner lips vibrate. It seems like my outer lips are not flexible enough.

Have you ever felt like this? Is the inner lips method okay to do? (I think it is not.) Or maybe it is a time for me to switch to a new mouthpiece?

Thank you for your answer.
Logged

Higashihiroshima Wind Ensemble
Yamaha YBL-830 + Yamaha 59
savio

*
Offline Offline

Location: Norway
Joined: Aug 10, 2006
Posts: 5079

View Profile WWW
« Reply #1 on: Sep 03, 2017, 12:32AM »

This might be different from person to person. I dont know what is correct but I have a feel that my upper lip is vibrating more than the lower lip. And the vibration is bigger thr lower I get. For different types embouchure it's maybe opposite. But as fare I know one lip should be more dominant inside the mouthpiece.

Could you explain more what you do? It's often not easy to know what is exactly going on inside the mouth. I don't know much about this so hope some more experienced answer this. How does it sound?

Leif
Logged

Bass Trombone - Conn, Holton
svenlarsson

*
Offline Offline

Location: Enskede, Sweden.
Joined: Sep 15, 2001
Posts: 4524

View Profile WWW
« Reply #2 on: Sep 03, 2017, 02:39AM »

Hi sirisobhakya as Leif said it is not completely clear what you do.
When you say that you open you mouth, do you mean that you increse the space between your lips? Do you pull the lips out of you mouthpiece?

Years ago I tried something like that (around 50 years ago! man I am an old fart) that way I could produce low sounds. The sound was far from a nice bass trombone sound though, as I rember the parts of my lips making the closer part of the open/close cycle nessecary to make a tone, was the inner soft flabby part of my lips, yes it could be loud, and kind of scary  Evil . I do say that is what you are doing, I am just guessing. That was not a way to make nice sounds though, not for me anyway.

We hade a discoussion about "The M position" on the TTF a while ago, the "M" does not mean anything more then that the lips do meet. In the vibration cycle there is a very short moment where the lips meet, a much longer moment where the  lips move away and back to the meeting moment. If I understand you correct (it not sure that I do) your lips are to far from each other to meet properly, so the inner part that is so soft that it can "get longer", the airflow does pull the parts together.

That is not a method that I recomend.

How much pedaltones do you need in the Wind ensemble? What mouthpiece do you use?

You do not spend a lot of time with the mouthpiece on your mouth, twice a week? Well a good pedal Ab is good pay for that time input. To get a good pedal F or Eb you have to practice a lot more, that is the simple answer.

It boils down to how much time you want spend on your horn.

Yes I have moments where my lips arnīt flexible enough. The morning after a hard days night. Maybe after 8-10 hours of loud playing. (that does not happen anymore, but often enough 20 years ago) , soft play in the middle range, break, more soft playing in both low and high range, and then of the the next gig.

There are many methods to practise low range, some works for many players, some does damage some and work for others. May recomendation is: play music in the low range, transpose any melody down. Be awere of your airflow, keep it steady, donīt blow hard, a slow wind but large, rather warm instead of cold. (not like the high range) Try to keep the "M" even in low tones.
Logged

Kanstul 1662. Bach 45B. Kanstul 1555. Besson Euphonium. Kanstul 66-S Tuba. Sackbuts in F/E/Eb Bb/A
And several horns I should sell.
sirisobhakya
*
Offline Offline

Location: Hiroshima, Japan
Joined: Jun 7, 2009
Posts: 17

View Profile
« Reply #3 on: Sep 03, 2017, 02:53AM »

This might be different from person to person. I dont know what is correct but I have a feel that my upper lip is vibrating more than the lower lip. And the vibration is bigger thr lower I get. For different types embouchure it's maybe opposite. But as fare I know one lip should be more dominant inside the mouthpiece.

Could you explain more what you do? It's often not easy to know what is exactly going on inside the mouth. I don't know much about this so hope some more experienced answer this. How does it sound?

Leif

Hi sirisobhakya as Leif said it is not completely clear what you do.
When you say that you open you mouth, do you mean that you increse the space between your lips? Do you pull the lips out of you mouthpiece?

Years ago I tried something like that (around 50 years ago! man I am an old fart) that way I could produce low sounds. The sound was far from a nice bass trombone sound though, as I rember the parts of my lips making the closer part of the open/close cycle nessecary to make a tone, was the inner soft flabby part of my lips, yes it could be loud, and kind of scary  Evil . I do say that is what you are doing, I am just guessing. That was not a way to make nice sounds though, not for me anyway.

We hade a discoussion about "The M position" on the TTF a while ago, the "M" does not mean anything more then that the lips do meet. In the vibration cycle there is a very short moment where the lips meet, a much longer moment where the  lips move away and back to the meeting moment. If I understand you correct (it not sure that I do) your lips are to far from each other to meet properly, so the inner part that is so soft that it can "get longer", the airflow does pull the parts together.

That is not a method that I recomend.

How much pedaltones do you need in the Wind ensemble? What mouthpiece do you use?

You do not spend a lot of time with the mouthpiece on your mouth, twice a week? Well a good pedal Ab is good pay for that time input. To get a good pedal F or Eb you have to practice a lot more, that is the simple answer.

It boils down to how much time you want spend on your horn.

Yes I have moments where my lips arnīt flexible enough. The morning after a hard days night. Maybe after 8-10 hours of loud playing. (that does not happen anymore, but often enough 20 years ago) , soft play in the middle range, break, more soft playing in both low and high range, and then of the the next gig.

There are many methods to practise low range, some works for many players, some does damage some and work for others. May recomendation is: play music in the low range, transpose any melody down. Be awere of your airflow, keep it steady, donīt blow hard, a slow wind but large, rather warm instead of cold. (not like the high range) Try to keep the "M" even in low tones.

How can I put it... It is like I am kissing the mouthpiece; entire upper lip touches the upper arc of the mouthpiece, entire lower lip touches the lower arc of the mouthpiece, so, yes, they are far from each other they cannot meet, and the air vibrates the soft inner part.

Pedal tones are not required that much in my current ensemble. The lowest one I have seen was a pedal A in Michael Jackson's Thriller, and there was only 1 of it. It is kind of a personal goal to extend the lower range. My mouthpiece is Yamaha 59 (0.22mm larger than Bach 1.5 G).

I would love to practice more, but as a foreign salaryman in Japan living in an apartment, that is hard to do. I am looking forward to go back to my country (Thailand), though. There I should be able to practice more often.
Logged

Higashihiroshima Wind Ensemble
Yamaha YBL-830 + Yamaha 59
bonenick

*
Online Online

Location: Antalya, Turkey
Joined: Nov 29, 2016
Posts: 757
"Life is change. Growth is optional. Choose wisely."


View Profile WWW
« Reply #4 on: Sep 03, 2017, 05:51AM »

How can I put it... It is like I am kissing the mouthpiece; entire upper lip touches the upper arc of the mouthpiece, entire lower lip touches the lower arc of the mouthpiece, so, yes, they are far from each other they cannot meet, and the air vibrates the soft inner part.

Wellcome to the club. This is often called by lead trumpeters  'unfurl' the lips. Many of them use that setup for their entire range. Not evreryone's cup of tea. If it works, use it. To find more about go on youtube and look for Larry Meregilano's videos on Cat Anderson or unfurled lips.
Logged
trb420
*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: Feb 28, 2016
Posts: 150

View Profile
« Reply #5 on: Sep 03, 2017, 06:13AM »

I know you said you can't practice as much as you'd like, but I my experience increased practice has eliminated shifts in my embouchure without having to consciously do anything about it
Logged
Doug Elliott
Lord of the Rims

*
*
Offline Offline

Location: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: Mar 12, 2005
Posts: 6567

View Profile
« Reply #6 on: Sep 03, 2017, 07:37AM »

That style of embouchure will not get you very far except into trouble.  If you are that limited in playing time I would say stop worrying about pedals, you will not develop them without a lot more playing time, and what you're doing will lead to very bad things.  Get a good practice mute and start spending time playing every day with a normal embouchure.  It's not ideal but better than only twice a week.

There are other things I might suggest but not without seeing you play.
Logged

www.DougElliottMouthpieces.com
XT LexanN104,C+,D2, Williams 6, K&H Slokar alto, K&H Slokar Solo .547 open wrap
harrison.t.reed
*
Offline Offline

Location: Colorado
Joined: Apr 5, 2007
Posts: 2572
"Spartan Brass Band!"


View Profile
« Reply #7 on: Sep 03, 2017, 08:05AM »

Yeah, I would try to get your embouchure more compact. If that means playing on a smaller rim, so be it. Nothing wrong with a good 2G.
Logged

"My technique is as good as Initial D"
T-396A - Griego 1C
88HTCL - Griego 1C
36H - DE XT105, C+, D Alto Shank
3B/F Silversonic - Griego 1A ss
pBone (with Yellow bell for bright tone)
svenlarsson

*
Offline Offline

Location: Enskede, Sweden.
Joined: Sep 15, 2001
Posts: 4524

View Profile WWW
« Reply #8 on: Sep 03, 2017, 09:00AM »

For now, forget the pedals. Ab is enough for most wind bands, the lower tones you leave to the tubas.
But do buy a practice mute and do some practice every day. 15 minutes is a lot more then nothing.
I belive on playing the pedals with kind of the same sort of embouchure you use for the middle range.
I do believe on keeping the "corners firm and the cheek pointed down" in all ranges.
In the future you may want to play in bigband and/or orchestras, but as allready said, it does take mor time on the horn.

No I donīt think the "unfurl" embouchure is a good idea. I know tha some trumpet players use it (I tell by the sound) but I really really donīt believe that is a way to good low range that you can control. Try to find some recordings with good bass trombonists. The one who most bass trombonist is influenced by i George Roberts, others are Ray Premru, Tony Stud, Kenny Shroyer, Bill Reichenbach,Blair Bollinger, David Taylor.
All of the above are playing the bass trombone with a real trombone sound tha they keep all the way down to the lowest pedals. Do not forget that a bass trombone is also espected to play alomost as high as the tenor trombones. (or higher :-P)
Logged

Kanstul 1662. Bach 45B. Kanstul 1555. Besson Euphonium. Kanstul 66-S Tuba. Sackbuts in F/E/Eb Bb/A
And several horns I should sell.
sirisobhakya
*
Offline Offline

Location: Hiroshima, Japan
Joined: Jun 7, 2009
Posts: 17

View Profile
« Reply #9 on: Sep 03, 2017, 05:08PM »

That style of embouchure will not get you very far except into trouble.  If you are that limited in playing time I would say stop worrying about pedals, you will not develop them without a lot more playing time, and what you're doing will lead to very bad things.  Get a good practice mute and start spending time playing every day with a normal embouchure.  It's not ideal but better than only twice a week.

There are other things I might suggest but not without seeing you play.

For now, forget the pedals. Ab is enough for most wind bands, the lower tones you leave to the tubas.
But do buy a practice mute and do some practice every day. 15 minutes is a lot more then nothing.
I belive on playing the pedals with kind of the same sort of embouchure you use for the middle range.
I do believe on keeping the "corners firm and the cheek pointed down" in all ranges.
In the future you may want to play in bigband and/or orchestras, but as allready said, it does take mor time on the horn.

No I donīt think the "unfurl" embouchure is a good idea. I know tha some trumpet players use it (I tell by the sound) but I really really donīt believe that is a way to good low range that you can control. Try to find some recordings with good bass trombonists. The one who most bass trombonist is influenced by i George Roberts, others are Ray Premru, Tony Stud, Kenny Shroyer, Bill Reichenbach,Blair Bollinger, David Taylor.
All of the above are playing the bass trombone with a real trombone sound tha they keep all the way down to the lowest pedals. Do not forget that a bass trombone is also espected to play alomost as high as the tenor trombones. (or higher :-P)

Thank you for your answers (including those whom I did not quoted). So I will leave the embouchure in peace.

Do you have any suggestion of practice mute? I would like ones with mute-compensating system (let you hear the unmuted sound) like Yamaha Silent Brass. But Silent Brass has no mute for bass trombone, and I have read that if one uses the trombone Silent Brass with a bass trombone it can get stuck in the bell.
Logged

Higashihiroshima Wind Ensemble
Yamaha YBL-830 + Yamaha 59
Terraplane8Bob
*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: Oct 9, 2011
Posts: 68

View Profile
« Reply #10 on: Sep 03, 2017, 07:53PM »

Hello : Regarding the Yamaha Silent Brass mute ---- I have two different models of that mute and they are QUITE different.  One looks like a common straight mute with smooth contours and has the microphone output plug mounted on the side.  The other is easily 1/3 shorter and could be stored in the trombone bell for travel if you wish.  It has a "knurled" edge around the circumference of the mute which make a great grip for insertion and removal and had the microphone output plug located in the center of the end of the mute.  It could easily get jammed into the bell and be difficult to remove, but I cut an additional cork that I glued onto the composite cork that is already part of the mute.  By doing so, it works just fine in a normal bass trombone bell.  They both work just fine in all of my horns [King Duo Gravis / King 8B / Conn 62HI / Conn 70H] and are great when you want to feel like you're blowing into an open room without disturbing a soul [except, perhaps yourself !]  I hope this was helpful !  Cheers !!   Bob
Logged
Pages: [1]   Go Up
Print
Jump to: