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svenlarsson

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« on: Sep 03, 2017, 10:27AM »

Sometimes the discousions on the TTF get weird because of different way of wording things and because of that, missunderstandings, I am aware of that my bad spelling may cause some missunderstanding. (I do have a problem with a mild dyslexi).
 
I have some examples of what, I will talk about two.

Are there right or wrong ways to tell slide positions?

Ex. when you use the F attachment you have jus 6 positions (or very often just 5 1/2)
The low Eb is sometimes called just T3, sometimes described as b3 or 3- or 3+ or 4+ or 4- or #4 or bb3 or something else. One funny thing is that + is used by some to indicat that the tone should be raised by others just the oposite, the slide is to be longer.

Just like the 7the partial G is descibed as #2, -2, +2 by different writers.

For students it can be very confusing when using different books. When I worked as a teacher I never used the + or - for that reason. I do not say it´s wrong, just that I prefer something that is lesser risk of missundersting.

Tom Malone (Alternate Position System For Trombone) use 1.7 for the high G. Reginald Fink #2 for the same tone, Budy Baker use -2, as does Rich Willey in "The Reinhardt Routines" many other say +2 meaning the same as #2. Confusing? Well not for an X teacher, we have seen it all.

Staying with this books, about using vocal sounds, Syllebels to describe the formation of the mouth cavity ,Rich Willy recomend particing "HOOO" in many studies for no tongue practice. (Just that is used a lot for many years in Eroupe ,just add the tongue for the attack). Body Baker (tenor trombone method) use DEE THA THAW THU an DOO for tonguing advice. TAW TUH TIH TEE for staccato.

Each sylleble can of be said lots of different ways.

The important thing is how it sounds, I have hundreds of book about brass playing in my hous, not looking in the much anymore, but I know there are many more way to descibe tonguing.

You can probably find more stuff to talk about missunderstanding and missconceptions on?

(PS as Tom Malone are writing about tones in the higher range he is trying to be as exact as possible, as 11th partial Eb 1.5, 13th partial F# 1.4.)
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« Reply #1 on: Sep 03, 2017, 11:11AM »

For years I was subjected to the Ta (and Ka) syllables as taught by Arban.  Arban was writing a book for French speakers and his syllables were really intended for French.  Jerry Callet used to rail about this in his master classes   He used to demonstrate a French "Ta" and it was very different from English (or Swedish, for that matter).

Then there is Alan Raph and his 5 syllables for different ranges.  But he never says where the boundaries are -- probably because the transition from one to the next needs to be gradual.  Tough concept for a student to swallow.

I also don't like calling the position for G "2+".  Tends to imply that the slide should be farther out.  Sharp 2 or short 2 is much more appropriate.  I don't think most beginning trombone players are savvy enough to figure the mathematical minutiae of tenths of a position.

i read an article in The Instrumentalist from some 60 years ago talking about the trombone having 51 positions (without F-attachment!) and he was only considering the range from  to  flat.

These are things that can hobble a beginner who will devolve into "paralysis by analysis" trying to figure out all these minutiae.

I believe in teaching Newtonian Physics before we go into Relativity and similarly going from 7 positions to adjusted positions for intonation.  Walk before you run.

It would be nice to have standardized descriptions, but until that happens we have to spend time as teachers explaining all these different things to confused students.
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kbiggs

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« Reply #2 on: Sep 04, 2017, 07:24AM »

As a young student who was often praised for being "smart," and "bright," and being told that I "catch on quickly," I used my natural curiosity to delve into those minutiae. I read pedagogy books in high school, before I had a firm foundation for embouchure, tounging, intonation, etc. It confused me for many years--paralysis by analysis.

Playing an instrument (being a musician) is an activity. It is learned by doing, not by thinking. Of course, reflection (analyis) is important at times. We all learn by observing and then copying the basics or fundamentals, and by trial and error. Later on, after years of coying and trial and error, I believe we start thinking in concepts about playing, but only after the foundation is firm. A teacher who can teach fundamentals and tailor them to individuals based on their aptitude, development and understanding can be hard to find. Good teachers, like good students, learn and adapt over time.

Opinion: I do not believe there is a system or approach that is best for teaching intonation, articulation, etc. I do believe there are approaches, based on the student's aptitude, development and understanding (and culture and interest!) that can be more effective and efficient.

Example: bass trombone positions. I found that for me and the few students I have taught, using Ostrander's system of valve and slide designation leads to less confusion. (I'm pretty sure it's from Ostrander, or perhaps Paul Faulise; I know it's not Aharoni or Raph.) For inline or independent trombones, he uses a "v" for the 1st valve (F-valve), "v" for the second valve, and "v/v" for both valves, where the "v/v" is actually in a vertical line, stacked on top of each other. Each "v" mark is followed by the slide position number for that horn's slide length: a Bb handslide has only 6 positions when using the F-valve, ditto with the Gb-valve, and 5 positions with both valves. (You can also use this system for dependent horns: just eliminate the "v" marking.)

So,  would be "v2" to play it on the first valve (F-valve), and "v2" would be to play the note on the second or Gb valve.

Another example:  one octave lower could be played v4, v4 or v/v1.

Once the student learns the different positions for the corresponding horn lengths, they then refine them through trial and error just like they did with the Bb trombone. Over time, once you learn the slide positions for each valve, you can drop the the slide position number.

I believe this system meets a student's first confusing aspects on a independent bass: which slide position do I use with which valve? That's what has worked best for me... Others may find something different works better for a particular student...

In your case, this system might not work well, given your dyslexia. However, that would be the teacher's responsibiity of finding and promoting a different system that meets that need, like Raph's or Aharoni's or Bolinger's valve and slide position nomenclature. Trial and error...
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« Reply #3 on: Sep 04, 2017, 07:49AM »

I guess I am old-fashioned. I don't much care for the "partials" notations. They seem to change!

I like the designation of let's say - "High G" for that note three ledger lines above the bass clef staff and then "Altissimo G" for one octave up - and so forth for all the notes above the bass clef staff. When I see that designation, I don't have to count on my fingers and I know exactly what note it is.

Oh, so what designation do we use for one octave above "altissimo"? Why, "super-altissimo", of course. lol

...Geezer
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« Reply #4 on: Sep 04, 2017, 09:42AM »


Thankyou for the responses. Beautiful post Bruce!
When trying to play in tune with some bands I think the trombone may have hundreds of positions!

Quote
In your case, this system might not work well, given your dyslexia.
Kbiggs.
Well you know that is not really how dylexia works. I did play inline horns with different second valve tunings, and tought double valve positions to students on university and gymnasium for 30 years.
When playing I see a note and play it. I really do not think of positions or valves in the playing moment. But before that I have practised a lot on the valves and positions! That is how dyslexia works. Same as all other players but just more practising.

Geezerhorn, you are old fashion?  ;-)

Well you know in my neighbourhood a high F is what you say is a super F!

But I know what you mean when you say super F.

For the partials is more precise, the 7th partial can´t  be anything bu the 7th partial. I think it´s a good way, if we talke about the 11th, 13th or 15th partial we can caunt from the pedalton as being #1. Ok you prefer ledger lines and thats up to you as long as we can understand each other.

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« Reply #5 on: Sep 04, 2017, 11:11AM »

Nomeclature is super important and I try and always approach it with a West Coast mindset. Anything you say or write down on paper should be able to be sightread no matter who is reading the chart. My professors for undergrad emphasized this point greatly when teaching about pop chord symbols. While there is never actually a fully universal system you can get pretty darn close by choosing to use nomeclature that makes sense to everyone.

It's like using Triangles or + or - on pop chord symbols. Personally I'll always write M7 instead of Triangle because it's nearly impossible to get M7 mixed up for a different shape when you're sight reading.

For example I personally don't circle things to emphasize "importance" because to many that means cutting something out. So I use Squares to emphasize importance and Circles and Brackets with additional written notation to show tacets or cuts. I use #'s and b's to emphasize pitch because +'s and -"s aren't as clear when you're sightreading.

There are a number of other things I do but hopefully that brings across the point. I am very confident that when I give my book to someone else or the chart is pulled up later for someone else that they will never need to erase or add things to the music because my markings are very visible and make sense.

I find Ostrander and many other methods to be distracting to read for the first time when it comes to marking. For bass trombone I actually really like the Aharoni method of marking valve positions. For example low F would be marked V1 and low D would be marked VV1. Low Eb would be bV1. If a note needs to be sharp you make it a #V. 2V means second valve only.

It's super obvious V means one valve, two VV is clearly double valve, 2V is second valve only, b or # means pitch up or down. Done.

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« Reply #6 on: Sep 04, 2017, 11:26AM »

I'm not a fan of referring the valve positions to regular tenor positions.  For example, low C is V6, not V7+.  Yes, you need to go to the very end of the slide for it, but that's still only the 6th position on an F trombone.
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« Reply #7 on: Sep 04, 2017, 11:48AM »

I'm not a fan of referring the valve positions to regular tenor positions.  For example, low C is V6, not V7+.  Yes, you need to go to the very end of the slide for it, but that's still only the 6th position on an F trombone.
I agree with Bruce, I'd mark low C on first valve as bV7. Or maybe I'm not agreeing with Bruce?... like in the spirit of this thread I'm confused by your nomenclature Evil

But also like I said earlier the + is super confusing... to me plus means # not b... it's much clearer to just use #'s and b's. There is literally no way to get those confused between each other.

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« Reply #8 on: Sep 04, 2017, 12:10PM »

I think any system of notation for trigger positions needs to come with a graphic of the slide showing these in relation to the "regular" non-trigger positions.  Then you'll at least know what that author meant in that book.

After you have the 5 or 6 trigger positions learned, it doesn't matter whose notation system you encounter since you should be reading the notes and not the positions, right?  The final judgement is whether the desired pitch has been achieved, right?


Syllables, I dunno... it's hopeless. Even if you find an international standard to describe them someone pops up to assert that people in far off somewhereland make that same syllable sound in a totally different way that will ruin their trombone career.
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Robert Holmén

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« Reply #9 on: Sep 05, 2017, 01:46AM »

Quote
Quote
Syllables, I dunno... it's hopeless. Even if you find an international standard to describe them someone pops up to assert that people in far off somewhereland make that same syllable sound in a totally different way that will ruin their trombone career.
What is "international standard"? There are book written on many langugaes on trombone playing?
Italian, German, Danish?
Well...forget it.
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« Reply #10 on: Sep 05, 2017, 01:54AM »

mr.deacon your post is very nice and good, I do agree with everything.
But.
When I was young 50+ years ago, the M allways ment a major chord. You could also write Major or minor, the M was allways Major the m was allways minor.
Then came the triangel.
Then came the praxis to write M in Minor and in some sheet music M for minor. Very confusing for an old fart, the dyslexi does not really help. :cry:

Another thing about chords, I see chords like G7#4.  ??? is that a b5 or #11? Not the same thing in my mind.
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« Reply #11 on: Sep 05, 2017, 06:18AM »

We don't use "M" or "m" anymore because of handwritten fonts... and some people who write by hand that can't consistently distinguish between the two. Now the preferred nomenclature, depending upon who you are engraving for, is "ma, maj or ∆" for major, "mi, min or -" for minor. And no more of that slash through the 7 thing meaning "major 7" that I see all over older lead sheets from europe. And definitely no "H".

G7(#4) (alterations should always be in parenthesis) is actually more correct than "b5" in many instances. "b5" implies a different scale. If you are really wanting something coming from the 4th mode of the melodic minor (G A B C# D E F G - D melodic minor, 4th mode - called the overtone scale or something like that) you can't call that a "b5" because if you look at the scale, it's not a b5. G7(#11) is actually preferred, but G7(#4) is often used to imply a voicing that won't use the 5, or will be voiced in closed positions. Pianists don't really care what you write as long as it's clear what you want. The change came about from the "b5" nomenclature implying a flatted 5th (not a raised 4th) but often being used in contexts where the accompanying scale has a regular 5 in it, which leads to confusion as to what the underlying chord scale is. A flatted 5th also implies a raised 5th - or in some cases, it implies the half-whole diminished (polytonal/octatonic) sound.
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« Reply #12 on: Sep 05, 2017, 06:39AM »


What is "international standard"? There are book written on many langugaes on trombone playing?
Italian, German, Danish?
Well...forget it.

Perhaps brass players should first take a course in the phonetic alphabet before deciding what kind of syllables to adopt for articulation.  Clever

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Phonetic_Alphabet
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« Reply #13 on: Sep 05, 2017, 06:53AM »

Perhaps brass players should first take a course in the phonetic alphabet before deciding what kind of syllables to adopt for articulation.  Clever

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Phonetic_Alphabet

:D Idea! Evil
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« Reply #14 on: Sep 05, 2017, 07:05AM »

Yes for me the G7(b5) could imply also a #5. A G7(#11) could use any scale with both D and C#.
If it is a chord the arrangement can have a D and a C# allmost allways one octave up.
A G7(b9) can use the half-whole tone diminished.
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(alterations should always be in parenthesis)
yes that is right, many musicians I know are over 80 years old, They don´t care about the parenthesis.
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« Reply #15 on: Sep 05, 2017, 07:08AM »


What is "international standard"?

OK, since you ask... the International Phonetic Alphabet is one international standard for describing pronunciation.

I'm not claiming that is well-known or easy to use. It certainly is not.

But if describing something with an example in English, which is more widely used and spoken around the world than any other language on the planet, is immediately attacked as being too provincial and too obscure, I don't know what else to do except resort to an "international standard" of pronunciation.

It's a problem, but English is the closest thing we have to something everyone is familiar with, especially on a board that is run as an English-language board.
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« Reply #16 on: Sep 05, 2017, 01:30PM »

OK, since you ask... the International Phonetic Alphabet is one international standard for describing pronunciation.

I'm not claiming that is well-known or easy to use. It certainly is not.

But if describing something with an example in English, which is more widely used and spoken around the world than any other language on the planet, is immediately attacked as being too provincial and too obscure, I don't know what else to do except resort to an "international standard" of pronunciation.

It's a problem, but English is the closest thing we have to something everyone is familiar with, especially on a board that is run as an English-language board.


Ok so you say that international standard is the same, or built on "international standard of pronunciation" ?

Well.
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« Reply #17 on: Sep 05, 2017, 10:01PM »

The international phonetic alphabet is just another way that humans have tried to impose order out of the chaos of a myriad of noises we can make. Nothing right or wrong, good or bad, just...
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« Reply #18 on: Sep 06, 2017, 12:46AM »

The international phonetic alphabet is just another way that humans have tried to impose order out of the chaos of a myriad of noises we can make. Nothing right or wrong, good or bad, just...

I tnink that is a nice try.
But I also think it is useless in trombone teaching.

It is like this.

Different languages and dialects use the moth tongue and even throat in different ways, some sound is easy for certain individuals difficlt for others.
It is a big misstake to believe that all good trombonists do use the same way of playing.
Trombone playing have a very long history. Good playing. Lots of different "wovels".

There is not one "the correct way" forget it.

I do believe that Doug Elliot, Sam Burtis, Chris Stearn and others has helped lots of players with problem, (I have too) but not in teaching the "Correct way" we are all different.
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« Reply #19 on: Sep 06, 2017, 07:33AM »

I tnink that is a nice try.
But I also think it is useless in trombone teaching.

It is like this.

Different languages and dialects use the moth tongue and even throat in different ways, some sound is easy for certain individuals difficlt for others.
It is a big misstake to believe that all good trombonists do use the same way of playing.
Trombone playing have a very long history. Good playing. Lots of different "wovels".

There is not one "the correct way" forget it.

I do believe that Doug Elliot, Sam Burtis, Chris Stearn and others has helped lots of players with problem, (I have too) but not in teaching the "Correct way" we are all different.

I agree, Sven. Everybody has a different physical make-up. Sometimes I think teachers and students can focus on the process--the teacher who insists that students say the word "Tu," not "Too" or "Tuh" or "Tah," etc.--and forget that the end result is what counts. Process is important, but the sound is paramount.

Also, because we're all a little different, our perception of the world might be a little different, too. If you say "too," I might think that I am also saying "too," but compared to some artificially-imposed standard (the International Phonetic Alphabet I jokingly referred to above), I might actually be saying "tuh."

It's hard to think in concepts sometimes. And of course, I don't know of any teacher who can read student's minds, implant an idea, and manipulate a student's embouchure.  ;-)

In the meantime, we proceed with modeling and trial and error: "Try this..." and the teacher demonstrates, "Go for this sound..." and the teacher plays the horn.
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