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Question: Trump's options?  (Voting closed: Sep 17, 2017, 03:20PM)
Pre-emptive nuclear strike by US - 1 (5%)
Pre-emptive non-nuclear strike by US - 3 (15%)
More tough talk from Trump (bluff) - 3 (15%)
Trade sanctions against China and/or S Korea - 4 (20%)
Relax. This will blow over, not up. - 6 (30%)
No options. - 3 (15%)
Total Voters: 19

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Author Topic: N Korea tests H bomb  (Read 2452 times)
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gregs70

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« Reply #20 on: Sep 04, 2017, 12:57PM »

How about sanctions other than food and medicine? The NK regime has the population convinced that everything bad is our fault.  If starving, they will not blame him, they will blame us.  If they aren't hungry, they can't hate us for starving their kids.  If the average citizen is fed and has access to medicine, maybe their frustration would be directed in the right direction - the regime that denies them freedom of thought, speech, etc.
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« Reply #21 on: Sep 04, 2017, 02:00PM »

Follow up question:

Do you consider anything short of armed conflict to be appeasement?

Consider this:

A guys comes up to you and pulls a gun and points it at you and says that he is going to shoot your wife. You don't do anything at first, so he says it again, then shoots a couple rounds over your head. Then points the gun back at you. You still don't do anything, then he shoots a couple of rounds at your feet.

You have a gun hidden. What are your options?

We have tried appeasement for over 24 years. What do you want to do? Sing "How long?"

We know that NK is China's puppet, so China will never help us out.

Right now, and it may be too late, but I would have our military shoot down every missile that they "test". We could call it 'testing' as well. They test their offensive missiles, and we test our defensive missiles. Right now, when we test our defensive missiles, we know when the missiles are shot up, so it's not a real test.

If we get used to them shooting their missiles as a test, how are we going to know when it isn't a test? The delay in making that decision would probably be too late. 

Re: Ellrod's question: Being a Christian doesn't mean being suicidal.

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« Reply #22 on: Sep 04, 2017, 02:29PM »

It's all easy when you present the facts dishonestly. You don't have to account for all the stuff that won't work.
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« Reply #23 on: Sep 04, 2017, 04:45PM »

It's all easy when you present the facts dishonestly. You don't have to account for all the stuff that won't work.

Corollary:
It's still lying even if you convince yourself of the lie first (which includes intellectual negligence/irresponsibility, or in other words the failure to apply honesty in your thinking).
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« Reply #24 on: Sep 04, 2017, 04:49PM »

Then why the concern over raising the debt ceiling?

It seems that the gov't borrowing from social security is like a company borrowing from the employee's pension plan.

The concern over the debt ceiling is a red herring.  The Republicans started that nonsense quite a while back (under Nixon, I think).  It's a way to politicize the budget even more than  it already is.
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« Reply #25 on: Sep 04, 2017, 05:54PM »

Consider this:

A guys comes up to you and pulls a gun and points it at you and says that he is going to shoot your wife. You don't do anything at first, so he says it again, then shoots a couple rounds over your head. Then points the gun back at you. You still don't do anything, then he shoots a couple of rounds at your feet.

You have a gun hidden. What are your options?

We have tried appeasement for over 24 years. What do you want to do? Sing "How long?"

We know that NK is China's puppet, so China will never help us out.

Right now, and it may be too late, but I would have our military shoot down every missile that they "test". We could call it 'testing' as well. They test their offensive missiles, and we test our defensive missiles. Right now, when we test our defensive missiles, we know when the missiles are shot up, so it's not a real test.

If we get used to them shooting their missiles as a test, how are we going to know when it isn't a test? The delay in making that decision would probably be too late. 

Re: Ellrod's question: Being a Christian doesn't mean being suicidal.


LOL NOPE.

How many tens of thousands die in the first conventional response on Seoul?  You can hit Seoul with a mortar from NK.

Y'all think the NK will just roll over?  They would be soundly defeated, but in the same way that a cornered skunk responds to a pack of dogs.  Only this skunk has nukes.

Cheers,
Andy
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« Reply #26 on: Sep 04, 2017, 06:48PM »

Why is it that China and Russia are pushing a joint proposal for a return to dialogue, between UN secretary-general Antonio Guterres and North Korea, aiming at joint suspension of North Korea's weapons programs and the military exercises by the US and South Korea? Why do they think this would achieve anything and what's in it for them? 
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« Reply #27 on: Sep 04, 2017, 06:57PM »

I suppose there would be no need for the DPRK to build nukes if there was no threat from the US and its puppet, the ROK.

The US is unlikely to accept a diminished role in SE Asia however.
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« Reply #28 on: Sep 04, 2017, 07:25PM »

what's in it for them? 

China would love to have the US out of there. And neither is interested in further sanctions.
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« Reply #29 on: Sep 04, 2017, 07:28PM »

...
The US is unlikely to accept a diminished role in SE Asia however.

Point of Pedantry: Korea is not in Southeast Asia.  It's in East Asia.  It's north of Japan.
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« Reply #30 on: Sep 04, 2017, 08:56PM »

NK Is China's puppet. Instead of China threatening its enemies with nukes, it uses NK to do its dirty work, and then claim innocent while it states how awful NK is. Good cop/Bad cop routine in its foreign national affairs.

NK is not China's puppet.

First off, destroy China's puppet.
Initiating a preemptive attack to 'take them out' would be foolish. China will not stand idly by and allow their buffer to be taken out.

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« Reply #31 on: Sep 04, 2017, 10:20PM »

It would take the DPRK a few minutes to kill hundreds of thousands of people in the PRK. There are 10M people in Seoul. It's only 120 miles from Pyongyang to Seoul.
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« Reply #32 on: Sep 05, 2017, 05:03AM »

There are not many people on the planet I detest more than Steve Bannon, but in true "broken clock/ Blind squirrel" manner he hit the nail squarely on the head. "There’s no military solution [to North Korea’s nuclear threats], forget it. Until somebody solves the part of the equation that shows me that ten million people in Seoul don’t die in the first 30 minutes from conventional weapons, I don’t know what you’re talking about, there’s no military solution here, they got us." Indeed.

I truly wish more people had the intellectual capacity to understand the basic etymological difference between "appeasement" and "containment" or "deterrence". Like so many small minded, ignorant people on the right they parrot the "appeasement" argument with NO understanding of what the crap they are actually talking about.

Dusty's "neighbor with a gun" argument is actually pretty close to the reality of what has gone on in the world since the end of hostilities in Korea in 1953, but he has got it 100% ass-backwards. Since the end of the Korean War the DPNK has had exactly ZERO military interventions of any kind anywhere in the world other than right on their own border, and even those have been quite limited. THe USA, on the other hand, has had at least one, usually multiple, military intervention going on somewhere in the world in every year, with the exception of the Carter Administration, since.

THe is litle doubt that Kim-Jung-Un is a paranoid narcissist (One of two involved in this story), but just because someone is paranoid doesn't mean people aren't out to get them. Drumpf worries me far more than Un does. Un is only concerned about his own survival, and 60+ years have shown the DPNK is not a military aggressor. Drumpf is a psychotic narcissist in desperate need of a victory, any victory, and is not smart enough to understand the consequences of many of his actions. One can only hop ethe adults, Mattis, Tillerson, and Kelly, can keep a lid on the true mad man in this equation.

Hey, I think I just wrote this weeks column! Thanks, guys. Look for this in the other thread in just a few minutes.
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« Reply #33 on: Sep 05, 2017, 05:33AM »

I truly wish more people had the intellectual capacity to understand the basic etymological difference between "appeasement" and "containment" or "deterrence". Like so many small minded, ignorant people on the right they parrot the "appeasement" argument with NO understanding of what the crap they are actually talking about.

But if we're not in charge--making them do things--bending them to our will--our strangely fragile collective ego isn't being adequately affirmed!!!
 
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« Reply #34 on: Sep 05, 2017, 05:43AM »

There are not many people on the planet I detest more than Steve Bannon, but in true "broken clock/ Blind squirrel" manner he hit the nail squarely on the head. "There’s no military solution [to North Korea’s nuclear threats], forget it. Until somebody solves the part of the equation that shows me that ten million people in Seoul don’t die in the first 30 minutes from conventional weapons, I don’t know what you’re talking about, there’s no military solution here, they got us." Indeed.

I truly wish more people had the intellectual capacity to understand the basic etymological difference between "appeasement" and "containment" or "deterrence". Like so many small minded, ignorant people on the right they parrot the "appeasement" argument with NO understanding of what the crap they are actually talking about.

Dusty's "neighbor with a gun" argument is actually pretty close to the reality of what has gone on in the world since the end of hostilities in Korea in 1953, but he has got it 100% ass-backwards. Since the end of the Korean War the DPNK has had exactly ZERO military interventions of any kind anywhere in the world other than right on their own border, and even those have been quite limited. THe USA, on the other hand, has had at least one, usually multiple, military intervention going on somewhere in the world in every year, with the exception of the Carter Administration, since.

THe is litle doubt that Kim-Jung-Un is a paranoid narcissist (One of two involved in this story), but just because someone is paranoid doesn't mean people aren't out to get them. Drumpf worries me far more than Un does. Un is only concerned about his own survival, and 60+ years have shown the DPNK is not a military aggressor. Drumpf is a psychotic narcissist in desperate need of a victory, any victory, and is not smart enough to understand the consequences of many of his actions. One can only hop ethe adults, Mattis, Tillerson, and Kelly, can keep a lid on the true mad man in this equation.

Hey, I think I just wrote this weeks column! Thanks, guys. Look for this in the other thread in just a few minutes.

So Russ, you think that NK is successfully contained?
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« Reply #35 on: Sep 05, 2017, 06:40AM »

They have been for over 60 years.
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« Reply #36 on: Sep 05, 2017, 07:02AM »

They have been for over 60 years.


Are you being serious?
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« Reply #37 on: Sep 05, 2017, 07:17AM »

Are you being intentionally dense? What aggressive ACT, not talk and bluster, have they taken against any nation since the end of hostilities on 1953?
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« Reply #38 on: Sep 05, 2017, 07:37AM »

Are you being intentionally dense? What aggressive ACT, not talk and bluster, have they taken against any nation since the end of hostilities on 1953?


I think that you're the one being dense. Are you willing to sit around until NK drops a nuke on Florida?
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« Reply #39 on: Sep 05, 2017, 08:09AM »

I think that you're the one being dense. Are you willing to sit around until NK drops a nuke on Florida?

Given the level of North Korea's guidance systems, I'd bet that if they aimed for Florida they'd hit Houston.

But they don't have a missile with that range.  Right now they might easily hit Alaska (maybe Sarah Palin's house?) or the US Northwest Coast.

But Russ does have a point.  North Korea is pretty much isolated from eveybody except China, Russia, and a couple of Southeast Asian nations like Viet-Nam.

South Korea at the time of the Korean War was a muddy backwater but they are now a strong economic power and can probably deal with an attack much better.  On the other hand, the Kims have turned North Korea into a starving country held down by the military and the Secret Police.  It is the country Orwell's 1984 warned us about.
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