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1080973 Posts in 71555 Topics- by 19061 Members - Latest Member: Solitario85
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Question: Trump's options?  (Voting closed: Sep 17, 2017, 03:20PM)
Pre-emptive nuclear strike by US - 1 (5%)
Pre-emptive non-nuclear strike by US - 3 (15%)
More tough talk from Trump (bluff) - 3 (15%)
Trade sanctions against China and/or S Korea - 4 (20%)
Relax. This will blow over, not up. - 6 (30%)
No options. - 3 (15%)
Total Voters: 19

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Author Topic: N Korea tests H bomb  (Read 1664 times)
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robcat2075

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« Reply #40 on: Sep 05, 2017, 08:09AM »

I think we can take that as an admission that DD can't actually point to an aggressive act by NK since 1953.


I can think of a few.  They killed US border guard in the 90s.  They sank a SK military boat in international waters in the 2000s.

But those aren't nuke-em-back things on any sane level.
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« Reply #41 on: Sep 05, 2017, 08:14AM »

To add to your list there's the USS Pueblo incident.  They boarded an intelligence ship in International Waters and took its crew prisoners.  Again, not a "nuke 'em back" incident.
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« Reply #42 on: Sep 05, 2017, 08:20AM »

I think we can take that as an admission that DD can't actually point to an aggressive act by NK since 1953.


I can think of a few.  They killed US border guard in the 90s.  They sank a SK military boat in international waters in the 2000s.

But those aren't nuke-em-back things on any sane level.

You can take that as, I consider that totally irrelevant to what the issue is today. To me, that's changing the subject.

The question becomes "do you want to wait until NK nukes our country?" to change your mind that containment theory is enough to protect our citizens? The problem with that strategy is the same as waiting until the stalker kills their prey to take action.


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robcat2075

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« Reply #43 on: Sep 05, 2017, 08:46AM »

Our moral superiority in all this would be more superior if we hadn't rushed into that war in Iraq.

Not only did George Bush waste the world's good will and support on his delusion, but he ended up showing our enemies all of our weaknesses for them to exploit in future conflicts.

The stalker analogy is another misleading one. Stalkers leave their house to follow you around. NK has been sitting tight and digging in.
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Robert Holmén

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« Reply #44 on: Sep 05, 2017, 08:56AM »

I think that you're the one being dense. Are you willing to sit around until NK drops a nuke on Florida?

Once more you choose to not answer a direct question. You obfuscate by asking another question. Kind of like when Kellyanne is on the hot seat.
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Russ White

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« Reply #45 on: Sep 05, 2017, 08:59AM »


The question becomes "do you want to wait until NK nukes our country?" to change your mind that containment theory is enough to protect our citizens? The problem with that strategy is the same as waiting until the stalker kills their prey to take action.


I know my neighbor has a minor arsenal in his home, and he has an NRA sticker on his truck. Should I wait for him to shoot at me, or should I go kill him now just in case?
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« Reply #46 on: Sep 05, 2017, 09:02AM »


The stalker analogy is another misleading one. Stalkers leave their house to follow you around. NK has been sitting tight and digging in.

Good point.

It is like hornet nests. If you poke sticks at it, you'll stir them up and bad things will happen.

I imagine if a hostile nation was doing naval maneuvers in the Gulf of Mexico, we would feel threatened, and we certainly wouldn't stand for it.

I am not defending the madman in NK. I am just saying that if you antagonize a crazy man, no good will come of it. Isolationism seems to me to have been the right way to deal with him.

Talking smack (like Trump has done) is NOT the wise approach. I agree with Russ. We have our own mad man: 45
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« Reply #47 on: Sep 05, 2017, 09:34AM »

A nuclear DPRK will be contained the same way other hostile nuclear-capable countries (Russia, Iran) are: mutual assured destruction.

On the other hand, Kim Jong-Un is a despot in a small starving country. What has he got to gain by taking on the US? Maybe he'd like to annex PRK. Perhaps he can cow Moon into surrender, but that seems extremely unlikely.

More likely, he can impress his generals (he likely needs their support) and can leverage some concessions from the West using the nuclear threat. China (and Russia) would stand to benefit from a withdrawal of US forces from East Asia. Who do you think is supplying the materials and technology for his missiles and nuclear bombs?

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ddickerson

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« Reply #48 on: Sep 05, 2017, 09:38AM »

I know my neighbor has a minor arsenal in his home, and he has an NRA sticker on his truck. Should I wait for him to shoot at me, or should I go kill him now just in case?

Does he threaten you daily and shoot target practice across your back yard? Probably he comes over to your house, drink beer, and watch football with you.
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« Reply #49 on: Sep 05, 2017, 09:39AM »

Does he threaten you daily and shoot target practice across your back yard? Probably he comes over to your house, drink beer, and watch football with you.

Reductio ad absurdum. Unlikely to be useful.

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« Reply #50 on: Sep 05, 2017, 09:42AM »

The problem is, we are in HIS back yard.

Dusty, once again you don't get it. While - I repeat - I am not defending the lunatic, but we are right on his doorstep. He is batshit crazy and Trump is antagonizing him.
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Baron von Bone
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« Reply #51 on: Sep 05, 2017, 09:43AM »

You can take that as, I consider that totally irrelevant to what the issue is today. To me, that's changing the subject.

That's only because you don't know how to question presumptions or personal sentiments, so to you the only subject here is How soon can we hit them, with what, and how hard? Anything not overtly and directly related seems as if it's a different issue entirely, even if it's The Real Issue™.
 
 ... or of course because you're trolling for lulz with this comically exaggerated persona.
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« Reply #52 on: Sep 05, 2017, 10:07AM »

Verbal handball is an amusing hobby for some people.
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Russ White

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« Reply #53 on: Sep 05, 2017, 10:38AM »

Does he threaten you daily and shoot target practice across your back yard? Probably he comes over to your house, drink beer, and watch football with you.

No, but he has killed off a bunch of people in other neighborhoods, and he has family members living in other neighbors houses. Switching perspectives a bit here, As I said in a previous post, Un is a paranoid narcissist, but his paranoia is grounded in reality. People really ARE out to get him.
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« Reply #54 on: Sep 05, 2017, 12:28PM »

While not as capable as ours, NK does have a large army.

Quote
The size of the the Korean People's Army [KPA] is a source of controversy. By late 2015 a number of scholars both in South Korea and other countries concluded that the North Korean army was composed of around 700,000 soldiers. This is 500,000 fewer than the South Korean government’s official estimate of 1.2 million soldiers. The DPRK's Reserve Military Training Unit [RMTU] consists of about 600,000 members, and upon reflection it seems that the organization, training and equipment ofthis formation are not substantially inferior to the North's regular forces, and so now it is counted here. South Korea has a large mobilization individual reserve force, but it is more a force of desperate last resort than the sort of routinely deployable force like the US Army Guard and Reserve [or the DPRK's RMTU]. Even though the ROK army is less than half the size of the KPA, it has higher overall combat effectivness.

From globalsecurity.

You've read the Orphan Master's Son, right?

https://www.amazon.com/Orphan-Masters-Son-Pulitzer-Fiction/dp/0812982622

It's fiction, but gives some insight into the problem. 
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Tim Richardson
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« Reply #55 on: Sep 05, 2017, 12:39PM »

A nuclear DPRK will be contained the same way other hostile nuclear-capable countries (Russia, Iran) are: mutual assured destruction.

On the other hand, Kim Jong-Un is a despot in a small starving country. What has he got to gain by taking on the US? Maybe he'd like to annex PRK. Perhaps he can cow Moon into surrender, but that seems extremely unlikely.

More likely, he can impress his generals (he likely needs their support) and can leverage some concessions from the West using the nuclear threat. China (and Russia) would stand to benefit from a withdrawal of US forces from East Asia. Who do you think is supplying the materials and technology for his missiles and nuclear bombs?


Well, some sources are noting what he learned from Iraq/Libya.  Iraq we went in and took out the guy without nukes.  In Libya, they gave up nukes in 2003.  Then when there was a whif of an uprising, we bombed them.  Then the ruler was killed by his own people.

We teach lessons whether we want to or not.

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« Reply #56 on: Sep 05, 2017, 12:45PM »

If Iraq had nuclear capability in 2003, would Israel exist today?
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« Reply #57 on: Sep 05, 2017, 01:05PM »

If Iraq had nuclear capability in 2003, would Israel exist today?

Would Iraq?
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« Reply #58 on: Sep 05, 2017, 01:49PM »

If Iraq had nuclear capability in 2003, would Israel exist today?

Would Iraq?


And I'll note that sworn enemies, India and Pakistan, both with very loud-mouthed governments, both have nuclear capability and both still exist today.


Having the nukes and having any practical use for them are not the same.
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Robert Holmén

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« Reply #59 on: Sep 05, 2017, 02:23PM »

Would Iraq?


Does it now?


And I'll note that sworn enemies, India and Pakistan, both with very loud-mouthed governments, both have nuclear capability and both still exist today.


Pakistan wouldn't sell nuclear technology to Kim would it? Isn't Pakistan our ally?
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