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The Trombone ForumHorns, Gear, and EquipmentMouthpieces(Moderators: BGuttman, Doug Elliott) Looking for a mouthpiece that's bigger than a Bach 1 1/4G but smaller than a 1G
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crazytrombonist505
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« on: Sep 06, 2017, 10:34AM »

Hello fellow trombonists,
Lately I've been noticing that my Schilke 59 (which I understand is sort of an equivalent to a Bach 1 1/4G) feels kind of small when I'm playing bass trombone. I bought a Bach 1G to try, but it's kinda too big for me. Are there any mouthpieces out there that are kind of in between these two sizes? Any suggestions would be most welcome.

Thanks!
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tbathras
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« Reply #1 on: Sep 06, 2017, 10:35AM »

Hello fellow trombonists,
Lately I've been noticing that my Schilke 59 (which I understand is sort of an equivalent to a Bach 1 1/4G) feels kind of small when I'm playing bass trombone. I bought a Bach 1G to try, but it's kinda too big for me. Are there any mouthpieces out there that are kind of in between these two sizes? Any suggestions would be most welcome.

Thanks!

Greg Black 1-1/8G
Doug Elliott LB113
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« Reply #2 on: Sep 06, 2017, 10:38AM »

Also the Yamaha Yeo.  And see my profile (Elliott Code).
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crazytrombonist505
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« Reply #3 on: Sep 06, 2017, 10:38AM »

Greg Black 1-1/8G
Doug Elliott LB112 or 113

Thanks! For the GB, which type weight would you suggest trying? I've had no expierience with Greg Black...
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« Reply #4 on: Sep 06, 2017, 10:39AM »

Griego GP (not the GP6 or GP7 those are bigger)
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« Reply #5 on: Sep 06, 2017, 10:40AM »

Also the Yamaha Yeo.  And see my profile (Elliott Code).

Thanks, will check into that
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tbathras
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« Reply #6 on: Sep 06, 2017, 10:40AM »

Thanks! For the GB, which type weight would you suggest trying? I've had no expierience with Greg Black...

It's a personal choice.  I just stick with the regular weight. But I'm not picky if I buy one used; light or medium also works for me.  I guess I just try to stay away from the heavy weight in any m'pc line, I don't prefer that.

Also, if you try a GB 1-1/8, try to get one with the .312 throat and #2 backbore.  I think that helps it be more manageable, as do others here on the forum.
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crazytrombonist505
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« Reply #7 on: Sep 06, 2017, 10:42AM »

It's a personal choice.  I just stick with the regular weight. But I'm not picky if I buy one used; light or medium also works for me.  I guess I just try to stay away from the heavy weight in any m'pc line, I don't prefer that.

Ah ok, that makes sense. Will look into that.

Thanks for all the suggestions so far. Just what I'm looking for  Good!
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« Reply #8 on: Sep 06, 2017, 11:11AM »

Maybe your Schilke 59 is big enough...
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« Reply #9 on: Sep 06, 2017, 11:13AM »

What makes you think the 59 is too small?  Are you studying with someone, and when you play your 59 for them what do they think?  Have you tried a similar-sized Bach (commonly available) to see it feels any different due to different rim or interior contours, or are you just looking at size charts?

There's only so much a bunch of good-intentioned people can offer over the internet without hearing and seeing you play, let alone having a clearer description of what you are trying to fix.

Your trombone teacher should be your first resource - explain to him/her the problem you are trying to solve and let them guide you.  They will be better able to help you figure out how much is equipment versus mechanics & training, and what is most appropriate for you at this stage in your development with the bass trombone.

Good luck.








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« Reply #10 on: Sep 08, 2017, 08:52AM »

Why are people suggesting DE 112+++?  The DE 109 is between the Bach 1.25 and Bach 1 (which is just over 110)

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« Reply #11 on: Sep 08, 2017, 08:56AM »

Why are people suggesting DE 112+++?  The DE 109 is between the Bach 1.25 and Bach 1 (which is just over 110)



From Doug's site:

Quote
LB 110 smaller than a Bach 1G, larger than a Bach 1G or Schilke 58 (28 mm)
LB 111 about like a Bach 1G (28.2mm)
LB 112 similar to Schilke 59, a little larger than Bach 1G (28.5mm)
LB 113 between 112 and 114 (28.7mm)
LB 114 copy of Schilke 60, similar size to some Bach 1G, but flatter (29mm)
LB 115 between 114 and 116 (29.2mm)
LB 116 larger than Schilke 60, same shape (29.5mm)
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« Reply #12 on: Sep 08, 2017, 08:57AM »

I haven't played on one myself but I think the Laskey 90D is supposed to be in the size bracket you are looking for? Double check on his website.
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« Reply #13 on: Sep 08, 2017, 08:58AM »

But then there is this:

http://www.dannychesnut.com/Music/Trombone/TromboneMouthpieceComparison.html
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« Reply #14 on: Sep 08, 2017, 08:59AM »

The 1G is a much smaller rim size than most of the other "large" mouthpieces, like the Schilke 60, but still very deep.
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« Reply #15 on: Sep 08, 2017, 09:41AM »


I would trust Doug's comparison first.  That table is from published specs - which are typically not correct, esp. for Bach.  Doug's chart comes from what he's actually measured and compared against physically.  That's my understanding.
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« Reply #16 on: Sep 08, 2017, 09:46AM »


Thats a good general reference. But Doug E. has real world specs, not what the manufacturers claim. Bach QC isnt what it used to be.
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« Reply #17 on: Sep 08, 2017, 11:06AM »

Comparing exact specs can be difficult, as Doug indicates on those pages where he has comparisons:

Quote from: 'Doug Elliott'
Some of these I have measured, and others are from catalog descriptions & specifications. Do not take diameter or depth measurements too seriously. The measurements are done on curves, and are subject to varying interpretation A lot of other factors influence how a mouthpiece feels and plays.

(emphasis mine)

The 1G certainly feels large, or at least all of the ones I've played have felt that way to me. The Schilke sizes just feel smaller, even though they might not be. Shape makes a big difference, and I find the Schilke style rims to be more comfortable.  Depending on what works for your physiology, going smaller than a Schilke 59 to a 1 1/4G might actually feel bigger. I know it does for me.  Similarly, you might like a Schilke 60 even though the 1G, nominally the "same size" might feel fine.  Or, naturally, one of Dougs rims on the appropriate cup/shank!
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« Reply #18 on: Sep 08, 2017, 11:50AM »

Also the Yamaha Yeo.  And see my profile (Elliott Code).

The Yeo and Schilke 59 are bigger than a 1G I thought.
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« Reply #19 on: Sep 08, 2017, 12:03PM »

I sold my S59 and bought a B11/4. The Schilke felt too big; the Bach feels just right.
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« Reply #20 on: Sep 08, 2017, 12:05PM »

Don't compare the published specs between different manufacturers - they measure in different places. In Schilke terms the Bach 1G is a bit narrower than the 60 and about as deep, with an enormous throat. Way bigger than the 59. Not dissimilar to the Yamaha Yeo, but the Yeo is a much better balanced piece than the 1G.

If the OP likes Schilkes, perhaps it would be a good idea to explore pieces by manufacturers that developed their craft with Schilke. Laskey 85MD and Hammond 20BL seem the obvious two suggestions to me. If those aren't large enough for taste, 90D, 20BXL, 21BL would be logical next steps.
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« Reply #21 on: Sep 08, 2017, 12:50PM »

Why are people suggesting DE 112+++?  The DE 109 is between the Bach 1.25 and Bach 1 (which is just over 110)
Go by Doug's list. Sure the specs on your list might be right... but by feel Doug's list is much closer.

I'd peg the 108 rim to feel slightly larger then a 1 1/2g and his 112 rim is about the same size as a 59 rim.
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« Reply #22 on: Sep 08, 2017, 01:30PM »

The answer is 1 1/2g. Its smaller than 1g but sounds bigger than a 1 1/4g....  ;-)

Leif
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« Reply #23 on: Sep 08, 2017, 01:48PM »

The answer is 1 1/2g. Its smaller than 1g but sounds bigger than a 1 1/4g....  ;-)

Leif

I will have to agree on that one. I'm not a fan of modern Bachs, though.  However, I'm pretty much in love with my GB 1-1/2G. But I digress..
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« Reply #24 on: Sep 08, 2017, 01:53PM »

The answer is 1 1/2g. Its smaller than 1g but sounds bigger than a 1 1/4g....  ;-)

Leif


Maybe for some. I wouldn't count on that for everyone though.
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« Reply #25 on: Sep 08, 2017, 02:44PM »


Maybe for some. I wouldn't count on that for everyone though.

I agree! But we have to try and work with it for some time to know?

I wonder what young bass trombone players like bigbassbone1 and others think;

Is it possible to make a 1 1/2g sound good and work in modern solo, jazz and classical orchestras?

Leif
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« Reply #26 on: Sep 08, 2017, 03:01PM »

Don't compare the published specs between different manufacturers - they measure in different places.

With some manufacturers you can completely ignore their specs... since that's what they do.
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« Reply #27 on: Sep 08, 2017, 03:13PM »

I agree! But we have to try and work with it for some time to know?

I wonder what young bass trombone players like bigbassbone1 and others think;

Is it possible to make a 1 1/2g sound good and work in modern solo, jazz and classical orchestras?

Leif

It's nice to be referred to as young, I haven't heard that for a while  :D

Savio, absolutely I think it's possible. I think that is is possible to make almost any gear work, depending on who the player is.
I have met and heard many players around the world who sound amazing on some really unusual gear, but they tend to be players who are quite well established in how they play, and are looking for a specific quality to their sound.

I think a 1 1/2 is a great size to introduce pretty much everyone to playing the bass trombone. It is manageable for young players and is big/small enough to make any aspect of bass trombone playing possible. For some, that is so they ever need and sound fantastic on it. I learnt from a bass trombone player for many years who pretty much played a 1 1/2G for his entire professional career and he had an awesome sound.

Having said that, in MY experience, I have heard less players that make their best sound on a 1/2 G than I have heard players who do. I find that the danger of someone playing a 1 1/2 G who can't "handle" it (for lack of a better term  :D ) is that they get quite an aggressive sound at higher volumes which can be very difficult to blend with as a tenor or tuba player. I also hear less than more players on 1 1/2's that struggle to sit inside the sound of the tuba when required.

My findings are of course very general. There are dangers that are just as bad when people play mouthpieces that are too big for them also.

The OP is looking specifically for a mouthpiece in SIZE that is between a 1 1/4 And a 1 though. The 1 1/2 is not that.
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« Reply #28 on: Sep 08, 2017, 06:01PM »

The Yeo and the Greg Black 1-1/8G will probably both feel bigger than a Bach 1G.

I would suggest trying other mouthpieces in the size range of the Schilke 59. The Griego GP is a very good one, as are the Laskey 85MD and the Shires 1-1/4MD. I think you'll find they all feel more free-blowing than the 59 and respond more evenly around the range of the instrument. A Doug Elliott in that range can also work well: something like a 112 or 113 rim, J, K or L cup.

I don't recommend either the Greg Black 1-1/4G or the Hammond 20BL, which have very large throats that, to my ear, consistently make the pitch center difficult for players to find. The .312 throat/#2 backbore modification to the Greg Black improves it, I'm sure, but that's still a very deep cup for a rim that size.

Another option is the Ferguson/Kanstul Jeff Reynolds L. It has a wider rim that some players love and some don't, but it's right there between a 59 and 60 size, with a reasonable cup volume, throat and backbore.
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« Reply #29 on: Sep 09, 2017, 04:42AM »

Thanks for all the responses! Just what I need to know  Good!
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« Reply #30 on: Sep 09, 2017, 04:45AM »

(emphasis mine)

The 1G certainly feels large, or at least all of the ones I've played have felt that way to me. The Schilke sizes just feel smaller, even though they might not be. Shape makes a big difference, and I find the Schilke style rims to be more comfortable.  Depending on what works for your physiology, going smaller than a Schilke 59 to a 1 1/4G might actually feel bigger. I know it does for me.  Similarly, you might like a Schilke 60 even though the 1G, nominally the "same size" might feel fine.  Or, naturally, one of Dougs rims on the appropriate cup/shank!

Interesting... I might look into that.
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