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The Trombone ForumPractice BreakChit-ChatPurely Politics(Moderators: bhcordova, RedHotMama, BFW) Conderacy hero statues, ingrained racism etc
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« on: Sep 07, 2017, 02:34PM »

I was born in Dallas, and when I was a young boy, I played 'Cowboys and Indians' or 'Union vs Rebels' with my friends. And of course, we always wanted to be the Cowboys or the Rebs. White southern heritage and all.

But as I got older, read more and basically gained an education and became more enlightened, I realized that the confederacy was nothing to be proud of.

Yet there are a whole lot of folks defending the statues (Stonewall Jackson, Robt. E. Lee, et al) and they are fighting their removal tooth and nail.

I can't even begin to imagine what it must feel like to be a person of color and to walk around in southern society with those statues on courthouse lawns, and other city and county owned properties. They represent repression and exclusion.

It is an ugly side of history. No one wants to sweep history under the rug or pretend that the civil war never happened. If people want to read up on the history of that war, that is what libraries and online sources are for.

Take 'em down. It is about time.

Out of morbid curiosity I listened to one of the right wing radio stations here in North Texas. I knew I would get that angle. Sure enough.

A bozo commentator made the point that liberals wanting to remove the statues is just another way to stop Trump from his agenda (whatever the hell that is), and he went on to say that "Muslims condone racism"

What? That is news to me. More disinformation from the right.

Even if it were true, the issue of statues is a USA issue. There are no Muslims in this country who own slaves - the last I looked.

Is it so hard to be empathetic to people of color who have had to accept the insulting presence of these monuments to defenders of racism? Apparently it is. Those who fight it just don't get it. They are too butt hurt and threatened that their 'heritage' is being besmirched and dismantled.

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« Reply #1 on: Sep 07, 2017, 02:49PM »

So morbid, that it only became an issue when the snowflake democrats told you it was an issue, and you had to jump on board. LOL!
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« Reply #2 on: Sep 07, 2017, 02:51PM »

That is exactly the type of insulting and callous remark I have come to expect from you.

Snowflake? For a self described Christian, you sure have no empathy. Everything you post leads me to think that you are a racist.

And in typical DD style, you drop an inflammatory post and then vanish.

I guess I am addressing persons who can discuss the topic without resorting to insults. And who can try and think of what others may go through. But that wouldn't be you. No way. No how.

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« Reply #3 on: Sep 07, 2017, 02:59PM »

That is exactly the type of insulting and callous remark I have come to expect from you.
 
Snowflake? For a self described Christian, you sure have no empathy. Everything you post leads me to think that you are a racist.
 
And in typical DD style, you drop an inflammatory post and then vanish.
 
I guess I am addressing persons who can discuss the topic without resorting to insults. And who can try and think of what others may go through. But that wouldn't be you. No way. No how.
 
Sad

DD's a persona which is either an Xtreme intellectual coward that doesn't understand honesty or ethics/morality beyond the shallowest level, or it's a troll yanking peoples' chains.
 
Either way, why go there?
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« Reply #4 on: Sep 07, 2017, 03:51PM »

Conderacy hero statues, ingrained racism etc

Would someone please correct this!
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« Reply #5 on: Sep 07, 2017, 03:53PM »

That is exactly the type of insulting and callous remark I have come to expect from you.

Snowflake? For a self described Christian, you sure have no empathy. Everything you post leads me to think that you are a racist.

And in typical DD style, you drop an inflammatory post and then vanish.

I guess I am addressing persons who can discuss the topic without resorting to insults. And who can try and think of what others may go through. But that wouldn't be you. No way. No how.

Sad

I knew you would return snark for snark, and I'm ok with that. I would like to see some examples from the left of conversations without insults.

Vanish? What else is there to say? I will take up your invitation and stay out of your conversation here, and let you guys have at it.

I think that I will do a search of the forum and see how many concerned posts there have been before now of confederate statues. Who knows?

 
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« Reply #6 on: Sep 07, 2017, 06:51PM »

I kind of disagree!

This shouldn't be revisionist history. We shouldn't trying to be replacing history or trying to cover it up. Leave the statues there as a reminder to what happened during American history. it was the American Civil War.
The North weren't perfect angels either.
Grant owned slaves! Are we supposed to get rid of his memorials as well? No, we shouldn't.
Robert E. Lee condemned slavery outright.

Also, the Civil War was fought for various reasons. Folks that fought for the South did it out of their sense of patriotism; they felt their duties and loyalties were to their state. This is why Robert E. Lee fought for the South. His loyalties were to the state of Virginia, plain and simple.

Slavery existed long before the Civil War. If you're trying to blame it on a bunch of Confederate generals, I think that's silly.
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« Reply #7 on: Sep 07, 2017, 07:11PM »

The issue is not the generals.  They performed brilliantly for their cause.

The issue is that the statues were raised by White Southerners during the period of reverse Reconstruction to remind the Blacks where their place was. 

I think statues to Robert E. Lee, Stonewall Jackson, and the like belong either at their birthplace or residence, or in a museum dedicated to the Confederacy.  I would just move all the statues there and away from the public places they are in now.

Incidentally, alongside the statues of Beauregard and Hill, there should be a statue of a slave in chains.
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« Reply #8 on: Sep 07, 2017, 07:29PM »

Yes, but we seem to be blaming slavery on the Civil War generals. At least, that's where all the blame seems to be going
...and for some reason this has all of a sudden become an issue. Why not 5 years ago? or 10 years ago? 15 years ago? 20 years ago? Nope, never been an issue until now. I have no idea why

I think statues of Lee and Stonewall Jackson were raised to remind folks of how brilliant they were for their time; admired both from the South and the North. The pre-Chancellorsville battle meeting depiction comes to mind in particular.
I have never heard it stated that the statues were being raised to "remind the blacks where their place was." If i'm wrong, and you can find an actual quote from someone who was in charge of a particular commemoration, using this particular quote, please let me know, and I'd be willing to reconsider. Also, these statues were raised in states outside of the South as well.

If you want to blame anyone for not putting a stop to slavery, I'd say it should have been stopped with the beginning of America and the development of the Constitution towards the end of the 18th century. Almost all prominent American historical figures have a history with owning slaves. Slavery should have been banned outright from the get-go.

And we're not even talking about how badly Native Americans were treated with regards to expansionism. Who are the real heroes in American history? Now that's something to dwell upon....
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« Reply #9 on: Sep 07, 2017, 07:50PM »

We had slaves (and indentured servants) from the get-go.  The economies of the North developed without need for slaves, while the economies of the South were based on slave-worked plantatons.  Net result, but the mid 1800s there were no more slaves in the North, and there was a climate of abolition (about which the South took umbrage).

At the time of the Declaration and the Constitution, there were great disagreements about Slavery which threatened the existence of the new country.  A compromise was struck in 1787 that slaves would no longer be kidnapped from Africa after 1808.  As new States began to be admitted there was an informal rule that for every slave state admitted there would be a free state (and vice versa).  Border territories had armed insurrections about whether they were slave or free (see Kansas-Nebraska and Missouri Compromise).

The Civil War was just another example of the battle over Slavery.
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« Reply #10 on: Sep 07, 2017, 08:12PM »

Slavery existed within Northern states as well. And it wasn't until the 13th amendment was passed in 1865, that the North freed their slaves. Let's think about that for a moment....

So it wasn't as simple as the South was "pro-slavery" and the North was "anti-slavery". This is a misnomer, on many levels.
If someone says that the South was pro-slavery, it complete ignores context, and it's put in the favor of the side that "won" (History goes to the winners, right?)
If someone is going to blame the South for the development of slave-based economies, why didn't the federal government step in to prevent it? They had, what, over 50 years to intervene? Well, they just let it go. Why? Because.....Northern states had slaves too!

If we're going to take down statues of everyone that ever owned slaves, I guess we have to take down statues of George Washington, Andrew Jackson, Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, James Monroe, U.S. Grant etc....and this becomes revisionist history. Let's embrace history in it's full reality, instead of trying to ignore it.
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« Reply #11 on: Sep 07, 2017, 08:34PM »

Yes, but we seem to be blaming slavery on the Civil War generals. At least, that's where all the blame seems to be going
...and for some reason this has all of a sudden become an issue. Why not 5 years ago? or 10 years ago? 15 years ago? 20 years ago? Nope, never been an issue until now. I have no idea why

At best, that is willful ignorance.

Try this search on "remove Confederate Statues" for articles just in the 1990s



Quote
I think statues of Lee and Stonewall Jackson were raised to remind folks of how brilliant they were for their time; admired both from the South and the North.

So admired in the North that almost all are in the South?  The few in the North were typically installed by "The Daughters of the Confederacy"

No, you can't commit treason to preserve slavery and then pose on your horse and say, "Oh, I was just being brilliant."

I notice you didn't claim Jefferson Davis was brilliant. No one does, but he's still got a ton of statues as if he stood for something. Hmmm... I wonder what that was?



Quote
If we're going to take down statues of everyone that ever owned slaves...

Let's take down the ones who committed treason.


Quote
Slavery existed within Northern states as well. And it wasn't until the 13th amendment was passed in 1865, that the North freed their slaves. Let's think about that for a moment....

So it wasn't as simple as the South was "pro-slavery" and the North was "anti-slavery". This is a misnomer, on many levels.

Pure dishonesty.

By 1858 slavery was banned in all Northern states. Most of them since 1804.

Four Southern states with legal slavery did not secede:  Missouri, Kentucky, Delaware and Maryland.

No, the North was not undecided on slavery.


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« Reply #12 on: Sep 08, 2017, 12:32AM »

So morbid, that it only became an issue when the snowflake democrats told you it was an issue, and you had to jump on board. LOL!

Yeah, because people who oppose slavery must be fragile little things who melt at the slightest trouble, like snowflakes. Except the people who opposed slavery kicked your asses. I guess the snowflakes were a bit tougher than you swooning Southern belles.

I can't believe that the GOP has become so utterly degraded that you guys automatically and reflexively make excuses for slavers and Nazis.  You yourself sure seem to have a lot of them, in post after post. Why are they on your side, and why are you on theirs? You even salute them with a cheery little 'LOL!' as if you're a schoolgirl texting about your cool new shoes instead of talking about the tragedy of involuntary human bondage.

So go right ahead and wave your traitor flag and give your sad little salutes and wear your little Nazi haircuts, and assume the good guys will beat you, because in the end you're a bunch of toothless, ignorant trailer trash. If you don't believe me, look at the videos.
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« Reply #13 on: Sep 08, 2017, 12:42AM »

Slavery existed within Northern states as well. And it wasn't until the 13th amendment was passed in 1865, that the North freed their slaves. Let's think about that for a moment....

So it wasn't as simple as the South was "pro-slavery" and the North was "anti-slavery". This is a misnomer, on many levels.
If someone says that the South was pro-slavery, it complete ignores context, and it's put in the favor of the side that "won" (History goes to the winners, right?)
If someone is going to blame the South for the development of slave-based economies, why didn't the federal government step in to prevent it? They had, what, over 50 years to intervene? Well, they just let it go. Why? Because.....Northern states had slaves too!

If we're going to take down statues of everyone that ever owned slaves, I guess we have to take down statues of George Washington, Andrew Jackson, Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, James Monroe, U.S. Grant etc....and this becomes revisionist history. Let's embrace history in it's full reality, instead of trying to ignore it.

That is a bunch of malarkey. I'll gladly rebut it, but Robcat beat me to it. All this mythology about the nobility of the Southern cause came long after the war, during the Jim Crow era, to suppress and terrorize freed blacks in a new way, and during opposition to black civil rights. That's when most of the statues were raised, and thus they commemorate hate. They're monuments to lynching, posing as monuments to slavery.

But the big question is, Why are you defending them? What's your affinity for the people you're defending? These statues obviously aren't of any real historical importance, so what is your stake in this? Why are you defending the flag of treason? Why does it bother you that they're taken down? Why are statues commemorating traitors and slavers an issue you would step into the breach to defend?
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« Reply #14 on: Sep 08, 2017, 12:50AM »


I think statues of Lee and Stonewall Jackson were raised to remind folks of how brilliant they were for their time; admired both from the South and the North. The pre-Chancellorsville battle meeting depiction comes to mind in particular.
I have never heard it stated that the statues were being raised to "remind the blacks where their place was." If i'm wrong, and you can find an actual quote from someone who was in charge of a particular commemoration, using this particular quote, please let me know, and I'd be willing to reconsider.

Sure. Here's what they engraved when they raised one of the statues.

http://baltimoretimes-online.com/news/2017/may/12/new-orleans-begins-removing-racist-confederate-mon/

Can't get much plainer than that. "White supremacy" sounds pretty damn close to 'remind the blacks where their place is."
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« Reply #15 on: Sep 08, 2017, 01:01AM »

Let's be plain about it. It doesn't make a lot of sense to criticize Kaepernick for not standing for the national anthem, but not have any problem with people who raise the flag of treason against America. Or pretend to be a patriot but get all weepy when they tear down traitor statues.
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« Reply #16 on: Sep 08, 2017, 04:41AM »

Let's be plain about it. It doesn't make a lot of sense to criticize Kaepernick for not standing for the national anthem, but not have any problem with people who raise the flag of treason against America. Or pretend to be a patriot but get all weepy when they tear down traitor statues.

AMEN!!
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« Reply #17 on: Sep 08, 2017, 04:43AM »

Sure. Here's what they engraved when they raised one of the statues.

http://baltimoretimes-online.com/news/2017/may/12/new-orleans-begins-removing-racist-confederate-mon/

Can't get much plainer than that. "White supremacy" sounds pretty damn close to 'remind the blacks where their place is."

THank you for finding this. It saved me the effort, and I have a huricane to prep for. And thank you for pointing out IS NOT about slave ownership but of an issue of treason and taking up arms against the government of the USA.
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« Reply #18 on: Sep 08, 2017, 05:08AM »

At best, that is willful ignorance.

Try this search on "remove Confederate Statues" for articles just in the 1990s



So admired in the North that almost all are in the South?  The few in the North were typically installed by "The Daughters of the Confederacy"

No, you can't commit treason to preserve slavery and then pose on your horse and say, "Oh, I was just being brilliant."

I notice you didn't claim Jefferson Davis was brilliant. No one does, but he's still got a ton of statues as if he stood for something. Hmmm... I wonder what that was?



Let's take down the ones who committed treason.


Pure dishonesty.

By 1858 slavery was banned in all Northern states. Most of them since 1804.

Four Southern states with legal slavery did not secede:  Missouri, Kentucky, Delaware and Maryland.

No, the North was not undecided on slavery.




Well, you just sort of contradicted yourself. You named 4 slaves states that were not part of the South. So what's it going to be then, eh?
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« Reply #19 on: Sep 08, 2017, 05:18AM »

Robcat, you took my quote:
"Yes, but we seem to be blaming slavery on the Civil War generals. At least, that's where all the blame seems to be going
...and for some reason this has all of a sudden become an issue. Why not 5 years ago? or 10 years ago? 15 years ago? 20 years ago? Nope, never been an issue until now. I have no idea why"

You responded with: "At best, that is willful ignorance....
Try this search on "remove Confederate Statues" for articles just in the 1990s"

Was their nationwide protests gong on regarding the significance of these statues? NOPE. Was the President forced to make remarks regarding Civil War history? NOPE. When Bush (JR &SR), Reagan, Obama, Clinton were in office....did any of them have to address national interests in the removal of Confederate statues? NOT TO MY KNOWLEDGE
So just because some were being vandalized that's pretty much a moot point, being that a lot of statues are vandalized. People are offended by just about everything. Again, we are blaming slavery on Civil War generals. I'm not buying it!

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