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The Trombone ForumPractice BreakChit-ChatPurely Politics(Moderators: bhcordova, RedHotMama, BFW) Conderacy hero statues, ingrained racism etc
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« on: Sep 07, 2017, 02:34PM »

I was born in Dallas, and when I was a young boy, I played 'Cowboys and Indians' or 'Union vs Rebels' with my friends. And of course, we always wanted to be the Cowboys or the Rebs. White southern heritage and all.

But as I got older, read more and basically gained an education and became more enlightened, I realized that the confederacy was nothing to be proud of.

Yet there are a whole lot of folks defending the statues (Stonewall Jackson, Robt. E. Lee, et al) and they are fighting their removal tooth and nail.

I can't even begin to imagine what it must feel like to be a person of color and to walk around in southern society with those statues on courthouse lawns, and other city and county owned properties. They represent repression and exclusion.

It is an ugly side of history. No one wants to sweep history under the rug or pretend that the civil war never happened. If people want to read up on the history of that war, that is what libraries and online sources are for.

Take 'em down. It is about time.

Out of morbid curiosity I listened to one of the right wing radio stations here in North Texas. I knew I would get that angle. Sure enough.

A bozo commentator made the point that liberals wanting to remove the statues is just another way to stop Trump from his agenda (whatever the hell that is), and he went on to say that "Muslims condone racism"

What? That is news to me. More disinformation from the right.

Even if it were true, the issue of statues is a USA issue. There are no Muslims in this country who own slaves - the last I looked.

Is it so hard to be empathetic to people of color who have had to accept the insulting presence of these monuments to defenders of racism? Apparently it is. Those who fight it just don't get it. They are too butt hurt and threatened that their 'heritage' is being besmirched and dismantled.

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« Reply #1 on: Sep 07, 2017, 02:49PM »

So morbid, that it only became an issue when the snowflake democrats told you it was an issue, and you had to jump on board. LOL!
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« Reply #2 on: Sep 07, 2017, 02:51PM »

That is exactly the type of insulting and callous remark I have come to expect from you.

Snowflake? For a self described Christian, you sure have no empathy. Everything you post leads me to think that you are a racist.

And in typical DD style, you drop an inflammatory post and then vanish.

I guess I am addressing persons who can discuss the topic without resorting to insults. And who can try and think of what others may go through. But that wouldn't be you. No way. No how.

Sad
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« Reply #3 on: Sep 07, 2017, 02:59PM »

That is exactly the type of insulting and callous remark I have come to expect from you.
 
Snowflake? For a self described Christian, you sure have no empathy. Everything you post leads me to think that you are a racist.
 
And in typical DD style, you drop an inflammatory post and then vanish.
 
I guess I am addressing persons who can discuss the topic without resorting to insults. And who can try and think of what others may go through. But that wouldn't be you. No way. No how.
 
Sad

DD's a persona which is either an Xtreme intellectual coward that doesn't understand honesty or ethics/morality beyond the shallowest level, or it's a troll yanking peoples' chains.
 
Either way, why go there?
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« Reply #4 on: Sep 07, 2017, 03:51PM »

Conderacy hero statues, ingrained racism etc

Would someone please correct this!
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« Reply #5 on: Sep 07, 2017, 03:53PM »

That is exactly the type of insulting and callous remark I have come to expect from you.

Snowflake? For a self described Christian, you sure have no empathy. Everything you post leads me to think that you are a racist.

And in typical DD style, you drop an inflammatory post and then vanish.

I guess I am addressing persons who can discuss the topic without resorting to insults. And who can try and think of what others may go through. But that wouldn't be you. No way. No how.

Sad

I knew you would return snark for snark, and I'm ok with that. I would like to see some examples from the left of conversations without insults.

Vanish? What else is there to say? I will take up your invitation and stay out of your conversation here, and let you guys have at it.

I think that I will do a search of the forum and see how many concerned posts there have been before now of confederate statues. Who knows?

 
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« Reply #6 on: Sep 07, 2017, 06:51PM »

I kind of disagree!

This shouldn't be revisionist history. We shouldn't trying to be replacing history or trying to cover it up. Leave the statues there as a reminder to what happened during American history. it was the American Civil War.
The North weren't perfect angels either.
Grant owned slaves! Are we supposed to get rid of his memorials as well? No, we shouldn't.
Robert E. Lee condemned slavery outright.

Also, the Civil War was fought for various reasons. Folks that fought for the South did it out of their sense of patriotism; they felt their duties and loyalties were to their state. This is why Robert E. Lee fought for the South. His loyalties were to the state of Virginia, plain and simple.

Slavery existed long before the Civil War. If you're trying to blame it on a bunch of Confederate generals, I think that's silly.
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« Reply #7 on: Sep 07, 2017, 07:11PM »

The issue is not the generals.  They performed brilliantly for their cause.

The issue is that the statues were raised by White Southerners during the period of reverse Reconstruction to remind the Blacks where their place was. 

I think statues to Robert E. Lee, Stonewall Jackson, and the like belong either at their birthplace or residence, or in a museum dedicated to the Confederacy.  I would just move all the statues there and away from the public places they are in now.

Incidentally, alongside the statues of Beauregard and Hill, there should be a statue of a slave in chains.
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« Reply #8 on: Sep 07, 2017, 07:29PM »

Yes, but we seem to be blaming slavery on the Civil War generals. At least, that's where all the blame seems to be going
...and for some reason this has all of a sudden become an issue. Why not 5 years ago? or 10 years ago? 15 years ago? 20 years ago? Nope, never been an issue until now. I have no idea why

I think statues of Lee and Stonewall Jackson were raised to remind folks of how brilliant they were for their time; admired both from the South and the North. The pre-Chancellorsville battle meeting depiction comes to mind in particular.
I have never heard it stated that the statues were being raised to "remind the blacks where their place was." If i'm wrong, and you can find an actual quote from someone who was in charge of a particular commemoration, using this particular quote, please let me know, and I'd be willing to reconsider. Also, these statues were raised in states outside of the South as well.

If you want to blame anyone for not putting a stop to slavery, I'd say it should have been stopped with the beginning of America and the development of the Constitution towards the end of the 18th century. Almost all prominent American historical figures have a history with owning slaves. Slavery should have been banned outright from the get-go.

And we're not even talking about how badly Native Americans were treated with regards to expansionism. Who are the real heroes in American history? Now that's something to dwell upon....
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« Reply #9 on: Sep 07, 2017, 07:50PM »

We had slaves (and indentured servants) from the get-go.  The economies of the North developed without need for slaves, while the economies of the South were based on slave-worked plantatons.  Net result, but the mid 1800s there were no more slaves in the North, and there was a climate of abolition (about which the South took umbrage).

At the time of the Declaration and the Constitution, there were great disagreements about Slavery which threatened the existence of the new country.  A compromise was struck in 1787 that slaves would no longer be kidnapped from Africa after 1808.  As new States began to be admitted there was an informal rule that for every slave state admitted there would be a free state (and vice versa).  Border territories had armed insurrections about whether they were slave or free (see Kansas-Nebraska and Missouri Compromise).

The Civil War was just another example of the battle over Slavery.
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« Reply #10 on: Sep 07, 2017, 08:12PM »

Slavery existed within Northern states as well. And it wasn't until the 13th amendment was passed in 1865, that the North freed their slaves. Let's think about that for a moment....

So it wasn't as simple as the South was "pro-slavery" and the North was "anti-slavery". This is a misnomer, on many levels.
If someone says that the South was pro-slavery, it complete ignores context, and it's put in the favor of the side that "won" (History goes to the winners, right?)
If someone is going to blame the South for the development of slave-based economies, why didn't the federal government step in to prevent it? They had, what, over 50 years to intervene? Well, they just let it go. Why? Because.....Northern states had slaves too!

If we're going to take down statues of everyone that ever owned slaves, I guess we have to take down statues of George Washington, Andrew Jackson, Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, James Monroe, U.S. Grant etc....and this becomes revisionist history. Let's embrace history in it's full reality, instead of trying to ignore it.
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« Reply #11 on: Sep 07, 2017, 08:34PM »

Yes, but we seem to be blaming slavery on the Civil War generals. At least, that's where all the blame seems to be going
...and for some reason this has all of a sudden become an issue. Why not 5 years ago? or 10 years ago? 15 years ago? 20 years ago? Nope, never been an issue until now. I have no idea why

At best, that is willful ignorance.

Try this search on "remove Confederate Statues" for articles just in the 1990s



Quote
I think statues of Lee and Stonewall Jackson were raised to remind folks of how brilliant they were for their time; admired both from the South and the North.

So admired in the North that almost all are in the South?  The few in the North were typically installed by "The Daughters of the Confederacy"

No, you can't commit treason to preserve slavery and then pose on your horse and say, "Oh, I was just being brilliant."

I notice you didn't claim Jefferson Davis was brilliant. No one does, but he's still got a ton of statues as if he stood for something. Hmmm... I wonder what that was?



Quote
If we're going to take down statues of everyone that ever owned slaves...

Let's take down the ones who committed treason.


Quote
Slavery existed within Northern states as well. And it wasn't until the 13th amendment was passed in 1865, that the North freed their slaves. Let's think about that for a moment....

So it wasn't as simple as the South was "pro-slavery" and the North was "anti-slavery". This is a misnomer, on many levels.

Pure dishonesty.

By 1858 slavery was banned in all Northern states. Most of them since 1804.

Four Southern states with legal slavery did not secede:  Missouri, Kentucky, Delaware and Maryland.

No, the North was not undecided on slavery.


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« Reply #12 on: Sep 08, 2017, 12:32AM »

So morbid, that it only became an issue when the snowflake democrats told you it was an issue, and you had to jump on board. LOL!

Yeah, because people who oppose slavery must be fragile little things who melt at the slightest trouble, like snowflakes. Except the people who opposed slavery kicked your asses. I guess the snowflakes were a bit tougher than you swooning Southern belles.

I can't believe that the GOP has become so utterly degraded that you guys automatically and reflexively make excuses for slavers and Nazis.  You yourself sure seem to have a lot of them, in post after post. Why are they on your side, and why are you on theirs? You even salute them with a cheery little 'LOL!' as if you're a schoolgirl texting about your cool new shoes instead of talking about the tragedy of involuntary human bondage.

So go right ahead and wave your traitor flag and give your sad little salutes and wear your little Nazi haircuts, and assume the good guys will beat you, because in the end you're a bunch of toothless, ignorant trailer trash. If you don't believe me, look at the videos.
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« Reply #13 on: Sep 08, 2017, 12:42AM »

Slavery existed within Northern states as well. And it wasn't until the 13th amendment was passed in 1865, that the North freed their slaves. Let's think about that for a moment....

So it wasn't as simple as the South was "pro-slavery" and the North was "anti-slavery". This is a misnomer, on many levels.
If someone says that the South was pro-slavery, it complete ignores context, and it's put in the favor of the side that "won" (History goes to the winners, right?)
If someone is going to blame the South for the development of slave-based economies, why didn't the federal government step in to prevent it? They had, what, over 50 years to intervene? Well, they just let it go. Why? Because.....Northern states had slaves too!

If we're going to take down statues of everyone that ever owned slaves, I guess we have to take down statues of George Washington, Andrew Jackson, Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, James Monroe, U.S. Grant etc....and this becomes revisionist history. Let's embrace history in it's full reality, instead of trying to ignore it.

That is a bunch of malarkey. I'll gladly rebut it, but Robcat beat me to it. All this mythology about the nobility of the Southern cause came long after the war, during the Jim Crow era, to suppress and terrorize freed blacks in a new way, and during opposition to black civil rights. That's when most of the statues were raised, and thus they commemorate hate. They're monuments to lynching, posing as monuments to slavery.

But the big question is, Why are you defending them? What's your affinity for the people you're defending? These statues obviously aren't of any real historical importance, so what is your stake in this? Why are you defending the flag of treason? Why does it bother you that they're taken down? Why are statues commemorating traitors and slavers an issue you would step into the breach to defend?
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« Reply #14 on: Sep 08, 2017, 12:50AM »


I think statues of Lee and Stonewall Jackson were raised to remind folks of how brilliant they were for their time; admired both from the South and the North. The pre-Chancellorsville battle meeting depiction comes to mind in particular.
I have never heard it stated that the statues were being raised to "remind the blacks where their place was." If i'm wrong, and you can find an actual quote from someone who was in charge of a particular commemoration, using this particular quote, please let me know, and I'd be willing to reconsider.

Sure. Here's what they engraved when they raised one of the statues.

http://baltimoretimes-online.com/news/2017/may/12/new-orleans-begins-removing-racist-confederate-mon/

Can't get much plainer than that. "White supremacy" sounds pretty damn close to 'remind the blacks where their place is."
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« Reply #15 on: Sep 08, 2017, 01:01AM »

Let's be plain about it. It doesn't make a lot of sense to criticize Kaepernick for not standing for the national anthem, but not have any problem with people who raise the flag of treason against America. Or pretend to be a patriot but get all weepy when they tear down traitor statues.
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« Reply #16 on: Sep 08, 2017, 04:41AM »

Let's be plain about it. It doesn't make a lot of sense to criticize Kaepernick for not standing for the national anthem, but not have any problem with people who raise the flag of treason against America. Or pretend to be a patriot but get all weepy when they tear down traitor statues.

AMEN!!
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« Reply #17 on: Sep 08, 2017, 04:43AM »

Sure. Here's what they engraved when they raised one of the statues.

http://baltimoretimes-online.com/news/2017/may/12/new-orleans-begins-removing-racist-confederate-mon/

Can't get much plainer than that. "White supremacy" sounds pretty damn close to 'remind the blacks where their place is."

THank you for finding this. It saved me the effort, and I have a huricane to prep for. And thank you for pointing out IS NOT about slave ownership but of an issue of treason and taking up arms against the government of the USA.
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« Reply #18 on: Sep 08, 2017, 05:08AM »

At best, that is willful ignorance.

Try this search on "remove Confederate Statues" for articles just in the 1990s



So admired in the North that almost all are in the South?  The few in the North were typically installed by "The Daughters of the Confederacy"

No, you can't commit treason to preserve slavery and then pose on your horse and say, "Oh, I was just being brilliant."

I notice you didn't claim Jefferson Davis was brilliant. No one does, but he's still got a ton of statues as if he stood for something. Hmmm... I wonder what that was?



Let's take down the ones who committed treason.


Pure dishonesty.

By 1858 slavery was banned in all Northern states. Most of them since 1804.

Four Southern states with legal slavery did not secede:  Missouri, Kentucky, Delaware and Maryland.

No, the North was not undecided on slavery.




Well, you just sort of contradicted yourself. You named 4 slaves states that were not part of the South. So what's it going to be then, eh?
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« Reply #19 on: Sep 08, 2017, 05:18AM »

Robcat, you took my quote:
"Yes, but we seem to be blaming slavery on the Civil War generals. At least, that's where all the blame seems to be going
...and for some reason this has all of a sudden become an issue. Why not 5 years ago? or 10 years ago? 15 years ago? 20 years ago? Nope, never been an issue until now. I have no idea why"

You responded with: "At best, that is willful ignorance....
Try this search on "remove Confederate Statues" for articles just in the 1990s"

Was their nationwide protests gong on regarding the significance of these statues? NOPE. Was the President forced to make remarks regarding Civil War history? NOPE. When Bush (JR &SR), Reagan, Obama, Clinton were in office....did any of them have to address national interests in the removal of Confederate statues? NOT TO MY KNOWLEDGE
So just because some were being vandalized that's pretty much a moot point, being that a lot of statues are vandalized. People are offended by just about everything. Again, we are blaming slavery on Civil War generals. I'm not buying it!

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« Reply #20 on: Sep 08, 2017, 05:20AM »

Sure. Here's what they engraved when they raised one of the statues.

http://baltimoretimes-online.com/news/2017/may/12/new-orleans-begins-removing-racist-confederate-mon/

Can't get much plainer than that. "White supremacy" sounds pretty damn close to 'remind the blacks where their place is."

Good find. It's a shame because I'm sure the individuals depicted would have totally abhorred this concept!
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« Reply #21 on: Sep 08, 2017, 05:26AM »

That is a bunch of malarkey. I'll gladly rebut it, but Robcat beat me to it. All this mythology about the nobility of the Southern cause came long after the war, during the Jim Crow era, to suppress and terrorize freed blacks in a new way, and during opposition to black civil rights. That's when most of the statues were raised, and thus they commemorate hate. They're monuments to lynching, posing as monuments to slavery.

But the big question is, Why are you defending them? What's your affinity for the people you're defending? These statues obviously aren't of any real historical importance, so what is your stake in this? Why are you defending the flag of treason? Why does it bother you that they're taken down? Why are statues commemorating traitors and slavers an issue you would step into the breach to defend?

I think your response is malarkey. My question is, why are you just summing the Civil War up to a simplistic "it was just about slavery; plain and simple" Not a single historian is going to back you up on that. Also, your acting like "the North were perfect angels; the South was not". This is ******** plain and simple. If you don't know why folks even fought in the Civil War then you need to do a shitload of reading my friend.
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« Reply #22 on: Sep 08, 2017, 05:43AM »

So morbid, that it only became an issue when the snowflake democrats told you it was an issue, and you had to jump on board. LOL!

As someone who grew up in the South my thoughts are the same as the Op's and have been for decades. Your statement, based on '16-17' politics, is ignorant at best.
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« Reply #23 on: Sep 08, 2017, 06:17AM »

Maybe we should just add a big plaque to each statue that says "racist ****" so there's no obscurity as to what side they're on.
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« Reply #24 on: Sep 08, 2017, 07:35AM »


 My question is, why are you just summing the Civil War up to a simplistic "it was just about slavery; plain and simple"


Maybe because that is the reason stated in the secession documents of EVERY state that seceded and is prevalent in statements made by every primary politician of the Southern states.
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« Reply #25 on: Sep 08, 2017, 08:45AM »

Good find. It's a shame because I'm sure the individuals depicted would have totally abhorred this concept!
Uh, no, they wouldn't.

You are way wrong.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornerstone_Speech

Feel free to consult some actual historians.  Might I recommend you start with This guy, who is readily available to read in many popular sources and on twitter.  https://history.princeton.edu/people/kevin-m-kruse

It was about slavery.  Period.  End of topic.  Really.

*before you consider me a crazy lib northerner...  realize that my family is from Texas and my middle name is Davis...  I don't have handy access to all the geneology right now, but let's just say we weren't exactly wearing blue.

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« Reply #26 on: Sep 08, 2017, 12:03PM »

Maybe because that is the reason stated in the secession documents of EVERY state that seceded and is prevalent in statements made by every primary politician of the Southern states.


That's not exactly true.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Civil_War

Quote
Among the ordinances of secession passed by the individual states, those of threeóTexas, Alabama, and Virginiaóspecifically mentioned the plight of the 'slaveholding states' at the hands of northern abolitionists. The rest make no mention of the slavery issue, and are often brief announcements of the dissolution of ties by the legislatures.[78] However, at least four statesóSouth Carolina,[79] Mississippi,[80] Georgia,[81] and Texas[82] also passed lengthy and detailed explanations of their causes for secession, all of which laid the blame squarely on the movement to abolish slavery and that movement's influence over the politics of the northern states. The southern states believed slaveholding was a constitutional right because of the Fugitive slave clause of the Constitution.

The ordinances of secession tended to be brief and legalistic. However the states that did produce 'statements' all gave slavery as the reason.
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« Reply #27 on: Sep 08, 2017, 12:08PM »

There were issues building before the Civil War related to Slavery.  One of the first was that Slavery would only be allowed south of the Mason-Dixon Line (this line is the southern border of Pennsylvania and the northern border of Maryland).  We had the Constitution restricting the importation of slaves after 1808.

The Southern states were afraid the Republicans would force them to free their slaves, especially with Lincoln (a known Abolitionist) as their President.  So in a First Strike they chose to secede.  Lincoln used arms to try to force them back in the US.

Had the Confederacy not seceded, there would have been a lot of arguments and fights in the Congress, but I'm sure eventually Slavery would die of its own weight as it did in many other countries who did not have a Civil War over it.

But the statues were put up to remind the Blacks that if things had been different they would still be slaves.  Same goes for the Confederate Battle Flag that was flown from several Southern state capitals.
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« Reply #28 on: Sep 08, 2017, 12:15PM »

I think your response is malarkey. My question is, why are you just summing the Civil War up to a simplistic "it was just about slavery; plain and simple" Not a single historian is going to back you up on that. Also, your acting like "the North were perfect angels; the South was not". This is ******** plain and simple. If you don't know why folks even fought in the Civil War then you need to do a shitload of reading my friend.


You may do a lot of reading, but you're apparently reading the wrong stuff. Without slavery the war wouldn't have happened.

There's no question there was some animosity between the North and South, partly for economic and cultural reasons, but mostly because the North had developed an economy that didn't rely on slavery.

But if you want to know the cause of the war, look at the negotiations to try to prevent it, and to prevent dissolution of the union. The arguments centered primarily on expansion of slavery to new states and territories, and enforcement of the Fugitive Slave Act.

I'm familiar with the arguments you've made, because they're made repeatedly by neo-Confederate sympathizers. They are, by and large, nonsense that was added onto history later to support the "Lost Cause" narrative, whose purpose was to support white supremacy and suppress blacks. It isn't a legitimate part of history.

A couple of examples, from Wikipedia:

Quote
The tariff issue was and is sometimes citedĖlong after the warĖby Lost Cause historians and neo-Confederate apologists. In 1860Ė61 none of the groups that proposed compromises to head off secession raised the tariff issue.[42] Pamphleteers North and South rarely mentioned the tariff,[43] and when some did, for instance, Matthew Fontaine Maury[44] and John Lothrop Motley,[45] they were generally writing for a foreign audience.

Quote
Historian James McPherson writes concerning states' rights and other non-slavery explanations:

While one or more of these interpretations remain popular among the Sons of Confederate Veterans and other Southern heritage groups, few professional historians now subscribe to them. Of all these interpretations, the states'-rights argument is perhaps the weakest. It fails to ask the question, states' rights for what purpose? States' rights, or sovereignty, was always more a means than an end, an instrument to achieve a certain goal more than a principle.[47]

In other words, the neo-Confederates, whose arguments you may be unwittingly propagating, went back and found some minor beefs between the North and South and elevated them to the status of major causes.

Surely, you'll admit that the Civil War wouldn't have been joined in the absence of slavery.
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« Reply #29 on: Sep 09, 2017, 01:32PM »

Would something like Memento Park in Budapest be an acceptable solution to both sides?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memento_Park

Heritage and history are preserved, while representations of cultural divisiveness from the past are removed from civic life.

No need for Red Guard/Taliban statue vandalism on one side or fancy dress rallies on the other.
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« Reply #30 on: Sep 09, 2017, 01:57PM »

I like that idea.  If you don't want to look at the monuments, you don't have to go there.
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« Reply #31 on: Sep 09, 2017, 03:53PM »

I like that idea.  If you don't want to look at the monuments, you don't have to go there.

Here in the Deep Red, where probably all or damn near all of these statues stand, as I understand it we also have plenty of Confederate graveyards. That's where the Confederate Civil War statuary is proposed or slated to go, or has gone for every case I'm aware enough to know that sort of detail (admittedly that's certainly not an exhaustive list). If that's what's happening the weeping and wailing over the loss of our history is pure histrionics (as if the notion even makes any sense to begin with). The loss of the prominent reverence regarding this particular segment of history may be real, but all attempting to force it on others does is to sour the larger sentiment all the more.
 
But then seeing those boys in grey so proudly displayed certainly does seem to be affirming for a lot of nastiness ... not that that would have anything to do with the reasons for the histrionic weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth or anything like that of course.
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« Reply #32 on: Sep 14, 2017, 09:49AM »

I, a Southerner, had a very informative chat with my girlfriend, an Ohio Yankee, about this very topic.  I think there are some fundamental truths here that need to be laid out:

1.  The Civil War was about slavery.  Period.  Full Stop.  The primary source materials and oral texts clearly show this, time and time again.  It was not about states rights or lost causes or anything like that.  It was about the institution of slavery in America.

2.  A giant portion of Southerners absolutely can NOT and WILL NOT be able to accept #1.  There has been a systematic (and systemic) indoctrination in the South since 1865 that the war wasn't about slavery, and that the Confederate States were noble pillars of "real American" values instead of despot traitors to the Republic.  It would take multiple generations to eliminate this pervasive lie in the Southern mind.

3.  A giant portion of non-Southerns are absolutely and completely incapable of accepting #2.  They just can't do it.  They haven't lived, steeped in that lie for generations on end, and they deride their Southern brothers and sisters for not being able to "see the truth."


So there you have it.  You've got entrenched populations of people who literally cannot accept that their childhood heroes, whose likenesses are molded on statues in their towns, were racist, bigoted traitors.  Accepting that destroys the narrative they've been taught for several generations.  Accepting that fundamentally alters how and what the see in themselves.  Like Dusty's kneejerk "snowflake" reaction, they are not capable of taking this as anything more than a direct assault against their heritage.  It's the equivalent of making a racial slur against someone else.  And it's all founded on this believe that their "heritage" is something more noble than hundreds of thousands of people willing to die because their race was superior.  The Confederates were the Nazis of the nineteenth century. 

To the folks in group #3, who see the Confederates as Nazis, it's hateful to enshrine that in the public sphere.  Same to the descendants of those enslaved. 

So take them down and put them together in a memorial site, funded by the people who want to keep the "heritage."  And start educating Southern children by national standards.  Ever wonder why the South resists national educational standards so fiercely?  It's harder to ignore the truth that way.
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« Reply #33 on: Sep 14, 2017, 02:10PM »

The statues represent a time in our country where bad things happened. They are examples for teachable moments. As ugly as that time was, the monuments need to stay right where they are to remind us of that past. Large parts of our country still operate as racist enclaves. We donít need, or should spend millions to move them to cemeteries and battlefields. Weíve got a country of *******, hung up on bathrooms, monuments, and the dipshits that need to be politically correct. We need to build new infrastructure, tend to our waterways, health reform, education reform, and goddamnit, PULL UP YOUR PANTS!!!
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« Reply #34 on: Sep 15, 2017, 01:37AM »

The statues represent a time in our country where bad things happened. They are examples for teachable moments. As ugly as that time was, the monuments need to stay right where they are to remind us of that past. Large parts of our country still operate as racist enclaves. We donít need, or should spend millions to move them to cemeteries and battlefields. Weíve got a country of *******, hung up on bathrooms, monuments, and the dipshits that need to be politically correct. We need to build new infrastructure, tend to our waterways, health reform, education reform, and goddamnit, PULL UP YOUR PANTS!!!

So you wouldn't tear down a Hitler statue because it would cost too much?

A lot of people would do it for free. Seems like a false argument.
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« Reply #35 on: Sep 15, 2017, 05:40AM »

The statues represent a time in our country where bad things happened. They are examples for teachable moments. As ugly as that time was, the monuments need to stay right where they are to remind us of that past. Large parts of our country still operate as racist enclaves. We donít need, or should spend millions to move them to cemeteries and battlefields. Weíve got a country of *******, hung up on bathrooms, monuments, and the dipshits that need to be politically correct. We need to build new infrastructure, tend to our waterways, health reform, education reform, and goddamnit, PULL UP YOUR PANTS!!!
But we need to continue spending to keep monuments to making sure that the minorities understand "their place"?  That's what they are there for.  They bother a lot of people, always have.  They help to enforce those racist enclaves.  They should never have been there, and they have little historical or artistic value.

I'm all for actually spending the money to add a slave in chains to each one.  Then I might actually carry the right meaning.  How do you think that would go over?

Cheers,
Andy
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« Reply #36 on: Sep 15, 2017, 06:24AM »

The statues represent a time in our country where bad things happened. They are examples for teachable moments. As ugly as that time was, the monuments need to stay right where they are to remind us of that past. Large parts of our country still operate as racist enclaves. We donít need, or should spend millions to move them to cemeteries and battlefields. Weíve got a country of *******, hung up on bathrooms, monuments, and the dipshits that need to be politically correct. We need to build new infrastructure, tend to our waterways, health reform, education reform, and goddamnit, PULL UP YOUR PANTS!!!

IOW, if only people would behave the way you'd like them to we'd all get a long fine ... and save some money which we could allocate for increased productivity/efficiency.
 
Unfortunately people clearly don't behave the way you'd like, and basing sociopolitical decisions on how things ought to be tends not to work out so well. It just affirms certain people and alienates other people, and it shouldn't be hard to imagine how the costs that builds up can be rather more than if you base social/political policy on how things actually are instead.
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« Reply #37 on: Sep 15, 2017, 07:10AM »

Timely stuff...  Follow the thread for some pictures and links, but I'll paste the text here.  Tell me again why we should continue to have confederate memorabilia in the public square?

https://twitter.com/KevinMKruse/status/908677172147179520

Quote
On this date in 1963, four little girls were killed when white supremacists bombed the Sixteenth Street Baptist Church in Birmingham.

The church had been a rallying point in that year's demonstrations, a symbol of civil rights for activists and segregationists alike.

When the bomb went off, it destroyed a lot of the church. It an eerie touch, the explosion blew out Jesus's face in a stained glass window.

More tragically, the explosion killed four little girls who had been preparing for Bible Study lessons in the church basement.

As a crowd gathered to pull the bodies from the rubble, white teenagers taunted them with a Confederate flag & a "Go Back to Africa" sign.

When some black kids threw stones at the white teens, the police moved in to apprehend the black kids. One ran away & was shot in the back.

At the same time, across town, another pair of white teens pulled up alongside two young black boys who were riding their bikes.

One of the white boys pulled out a pistol, put two bullets into a thirteen-year-old black boy's head and chest, and then drove away.

Just three weeks earlier, Martin Luther King Jr. had delivered his famous "I Have a Dream" speech at the March on Washington.

But the violence that day in Birmingham -- by Klansmen, by ordinary white teens, even by the police -- showed how far away that dream was.

In a sign of how far off it was, the pursuit of justice for the church bombing took decades, even though the FBI IDed the bombers in 1965.

It took fourteen years before the first bomber was convicted, and nearly four decades before two others were brought to justice too.

The prosecutor of those last two bombers, I should note, is currently the Democratic nominee for Senate in Alabama:

It took decades before the men responsible for the bombing were brought to justice, but in the short term there was a different reckoning.

Charles Morgan, a white lawyer in Birmingham, spoke at a white club the day after the bombing, noting that they were *all* responsible.

It's a remarkable speech. As we confront white supremacy once again today, it's worth listening to again in full:

As recent events show, we are still in a very similar place.  Imagine if we had really ended slavery with the end of the civil war and just reckoned with it then.  For fun, look at how many black southern congress members there were in 1875 and compare it to 1945.  It's almost like all these monuments and lies had a purpose and it actually worked.

Cheers,
Andy

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« Reply #38 on: Sep 15, 2017, 08:01AM »

So you wouldn't tear down a Hitler statue because it would cost too much?

A lot of people would do it for free. Seems like a false argument.


Hitler wasnít in the Civil War. Iím pretty sure thereís no civil war monuments that feature him.
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« Reply #39 on: Sep 15, 2017, 08:10AM »

But we need to continue spending to keep monuments to making sure that the minorities understand "their place"?  That's what they are there for.  They bother a lot of people, always have.  They help to enforce those racist enclaves.  They should never have been there, and they have little historical or artistic value.

I'm all for actually spending the money to add a slave in chains to each one.  Then I might actually carry the right meaning.  How do you think that would go over?

Cheers,
Andy

Iím fine with adding slaves in chains. People can be bothered by them. And they do have a historical value. Do they depict and romanticize a terrible time in our history?
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« Reply #40 on: Sep 15, 2017, 08:13AM »


IOW, if only people would behave the way you'd like them to we'd all get a long fine ... and save some money which we could allocate for increased productivity/efficiency.
 
Unfortunately people clearly don't behave the way you'd like, and basing sociopolitical decisions on how things ought to be tends not to work out so well. It just affirms certain people and alienates other people, and it shouldn't be hard to imagine how the costs that builds up can be rather more than if you base social/political policy on how things actually are instead.

Well, you can wish with one hand, and crap in the other, Captain Obvious.
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« Reply #41 on: Sep 15, 2017, 09:06AM »

The statues represent a time in our country where bad things happened. They are examples for teachable moments. As ugly as that time was, the monuments need to stay right where they are to remind us of that past. Large parts of our country still operate as racist enclaves. We donít need, or should spend millions to move them to cemeteries and battlefields. Weíve got a country of *******, hung up on bathrooms, monuments, and the dipshits that need to be politically correct. We need to build new infrastructure, tend to our waterways, health reform, education reform, and goddamnit, PULL UP YOUR PANTS!!!
IOW, if only people would behave the way you'd like them to we'd all get a long fine ... and save some money which we could allocate for increased productivity/efficiency.
 
Unfortunately people clearly don't behave the way you'd like, and basing sociopolitical decisions on how things ought to be tends not to work out so well. It just affirms certain people and alienates other people, and it shouldn't be hard to imagine how the costs that builds up can be rather more than if you base social/political policy on how things actually are instead.
Well, you can wish with one hand, and crap in the other, Captain Obvious.

So you're in agreement that the notion that your position is based upon what should be rather than what is is obviously ill conceived then.
 
If you agree that it's obvious I gather the initial post was just an oversight or a brain cramp?
 
Cool if so--no more controversy, and without the usual rabbit chasing and other silly rhetorical games.
 
Your candor is much appreciated!
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« Reply #42 on: Sep 15, 2017, 09:21AM »

IOW, if only people would behave the way you'd like them to we'd all get a long fine ... and save some money which we could allocate for increased productivity/efficiency.
 
Unfortunately people clearly don't behave the way you'd like, and basing sociopolitical decisions on how things ought to be tends not to work out so well. It just affirms certain people and alienates other people, and it shouldn't be hard to imagine how the costs that builds up can be rather more than if you base social/political policy on how things actually are instead.Well, you can wish with one hand, and crap in the other, Captain Obvious.
So you're in agreement that the notion that your position is based upon what should be rather than what is is obviously ill conceived then.
 
If you agree that it's obvious I gather the initial post was just an oversight or a brain cramp?
 
Cool if so--no more controversy, and without the usual rabbit chasing and other silly rhetorical games.
 
Your candor is much appreciated!

I don't need to know about your conversations with a sex therapist.
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« Reply #43 on: Sep 15, 2017, 09:36AM »

Quote
The statues represent a time in our country where bad things happened. They are examples for teachable moments. As ugly as that time was, the monuments need to stay right where they are to remind us of that past. Large parts of our country still operate as racist enclaves. We donít need, or should spend millions to move them to cemeteries and battlefields. Weíve got a country of *******, hung up on bathrooms, monuments, and the dipshits that need to be politically correct. We need to build new infrastructure, tend to our waterways, health reform, education reform, and goddamnit, PULL UP YOUR PANTS!!!

So you're clearly in camp #3, people who just don't get it.

Those statues don't stand in the South as examples of teachable moments.  Get it through your head.  Nobody in the South looks at them and says, "Gosh, that guy came really close to destroying everything America was supposed to mean."  They're "monuments" to "heroes" whose "cause" was noble and just.  When, in fact, they're shoddy pieces hastily assembled and set into place to remind people that whites are superior.  End of story. 

Also, you're wrong about the bathrooms and dipshits.  We've got an aging population who, against all reason, is clinging to 1950s social norms while the world moves on without them.
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« Reply #44 on: Sep 15, 2017, 09:39AM »

Maybe a overshadowing statue of MLK erected next to each confederate statue, swinging a baseball bat at its head?
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« Reply #45 on: Sep 15, 2017, 10:34AM »

Hitler wasnít in the Civil War. Iím pretty sure thereís no civil war monuments that feature him.

I understand that perfectly. You're proposing to leave up a statue celeebrating America's enemies (both Robert E. Lee and Hitler fought against the US and lost) because it would cost too much to remove. I'm asking if you'd make the same accommodation to a Hitler statue, for the same reason.
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« Reply #46 on: Sep 15, 2017, 10:46AM »

I don't need to know about your conversations with a sex therapist.

So you weren't able to maintain the context of the discussion over the course of three posts, it would seem ...
 
Don't feel too bad. You have company, and the norm with that skill definitely seems to be going lower.
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« Reply #47 on: Sep 15, 2017, 10:53AM »

I love the folly that Main Streets and government buildings need divisive "teachable moment" statuary that is presented without context: "He's whipping the slave, but what you don't know is that he was actually quite progressive for his time!"

The historic murals in (the American sitcom) Parks & Recreation come to mind:



 Yeah, RIGHT.
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« Reply #48 on: Sep 15, 2017, 10:59AM »



 Idea!
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« Reply #49 on: Sep 15, 2017, 12:04PM »

If you read the declarations of causes of succession from the states that succeeded that issued independent statements as to the reasons for their succession it is pretty clear that the Succession of these states would not have happened where it not for the issue of slavery.  If there had not been Slavery in the South it is hard to make a case that the Civil war would have happened anyways.  Sure they also mentioned "States Rights" but it is obvious the most important right they wanted to preserve was their right to own other human beings as property.  When you erect statues honoring men who fought to keep Africans enslaved you should, if your a reasonable person ask yourself how do these people whose ancestors where enslaved feel when they walk past statues on public property everyday honoring men who fought to deny them and their ancestors freedom.  No one is asking anyone to rewrite history or deny that this took place, but to keep Confederate Monuments in place honoring people who fought to keep other Humans in bondage is an insult to those who are descended from those people who were considered sub-human.  I'm a Northerner and don't have the same background and prospective as someone raised in the south, so to me I don't consider Stonewall Jackson, Jefferson Davis, or Robert E. Lee heros.  They fought hard, and were intelligent competent leaders but I also think they were fighting for a misguided cause.  I don't idolize them anymore than I would Hitler, or Rommel.

https://www.civilwar.org/learn/primary-sources/declaration-causes-seceding-states
   
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« Reply #50 on: Sep 15, 2017, 03:57PM »

I understand that perfectly. You're proposing to leave up a statue celeebrating America's enemies (both Robert E. Lee and Hitler fought against the US and lost) because it would cost too much to remove. I'm asking if you'd make the same accommodation to a Hitler statue, for the same reason.

No, you donít understand it. Hitler wasnít in the war.
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« Reply #51 on: Sep 15, 2017, 04:22PM »

FYI:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_slavery
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« Reply #52 on: Sep 15, 2017, 04:36PM »

No, you donít understand it. Hitler wasnít in the war.

That's only slightly more compelling (but no more honest) than arguing that a vandal didn't paint white supremacist graffiti on a black church because he didn't dot the "i" on the N Word ... so it isn't an "i" because an "i" has a dot, so it can't be the N Word, therefore it isn't white supremacist graffiti.
 
You're arguing a ridiculously transparent technicality as if you're really stupid enough to think it's an argument. It's unlikely you think anyone else is actually stupid enough to buy it, so it's more about defiance of basic social and intellectual responsibility. I suppose it's possible you're talented enough at self-deception and have a casual enough relationship with the truth to have convinced yourself, but it's not going to impress anyone else who's not pretty deeply invested in the same ridiculously transparent self-deception.
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« Reply #53 on: Sep 15, 2017, 04:52PM »

Hitler wasnít in the Civil War. Iím pretty sure thereís no civil war monuments that feature him.

What an asinine response. I can't believe you didn't get the point he was making.
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« Reply #54 on: Sep 15, 2017, 05:27PM »

What an asinine response. I can't believe you didn't get the point he was making.

I donít think you get it at all. Hitler is not in the conversation. If you want to start a thread about accommodations and preservations of Hitler statues, please do so. We are talking about the Confederacy. Hitler fallacies donít apply. Double up on the medications please.
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« Reply #55 on: Sep 15, 2017, 05:32PM »


That's only slightly more compelling (but no more honest) than arguing that a vandal didn't paint white supremacist graffiti on a black church because he didn't dot the "i" on the N Word ... so it isn't an "i" because an "i" has a dot, so it can't be the N Word, therefore it isn't white supremacist graffiti.
 
You're arguing a ridiculously transparent technicality as if you're really stupid enough to think it's an argument. It's unlikely you think anyone else is actually stupid enough to buy it, so it's more about defiance of basic social and intellectual responsibility. I suppose it's possible you're talented enough at self-deception and have a casual enough relationship with the truth to have convinced yourself, but it's not going to impress anyone else who's not pretty deeply invested in the same ridiculously transparent self-deception.

You were stupid enough to respond.
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« Reply #56 on: Sep 15, 2017, 08:10PM »

You were stupid enough to respond.

That's actually a valid point.
 
You did it!
 
Maybe you should stop there though ... eh?
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« Reply #57 on: Sep 15, 2017, 09:38PM »


That's actually a valid point.
 
You did it!
 
Maybe you should stop there though ... eh?

Iíve got $20 on you already that youíre a 1uper.
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« Reply #58 on: Sep 15, 2017, 10:32PM »

No, you donít understand it. Hitler wasnít in the war.

Hitler didn't go to war? LOL!
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« Reply #59 on: Sep 15, 2017, 10:39PM »

Hitler didn't go to war? LOL!


Hitler wasnít in the civil war. If youíre that obsessed about statues of Hitler, start your own thread ON WWII.
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« Reply #60 on: Sep 15, 2017, 10:57PM »


Hitler wasnít in the civil war. If youíre that obsessed about statues of Hitler, start your own thread ON WWII.

Uhhh, Schlitz, you aren't the topic cop.

A parallel was drawn about statues honoring those on the losing side in the history of wars.

I get what he is saying. You obviously don't.
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« Reply #61 on: Sep 15, 2017, 11:38PM »

Uhhh, Schlitz, you aren't the topic cop.

A parallel was drawn about statues honoring those on the losing side in the history of wars.

I get what he is saying. You obviously don't.

Parallel arguments arenít on topic. And no, I donít have to respond to them. Look up the Hitler fallacies. And if youíre going to pull the technical argument crap, itís Confederacy.
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« Reply #62 on: Sep 16, 2017, 01:08AM »

Parallel arguments arenít on topic. And no, I donít have to respond to them. Look up the Hitler fallacies. And if youíre going to pull the technical argument crap, itís Confederacy.

Perfectly on topic. R.E. Lee was an enemy of the US, not an American war hero. There's no 'Hitler fallacy' here. We don't normally celebrate our defeated enemies--Mussolini, Tojo, Saddam Hussein, Tim McVeigh, the Unabomer etc.--in our public squares. I'm merely pointing out that you're making special pleading for the traitorous and murderous Confederate generals, so it's reasonable if you would make a similar accommodation to our other past enemies. If it's important to keep statues up to remind ourselves of our history, why not all those other guys? That's where your argument fails. Your claim that the cost of the statue removal speaks against doing it is just absurd and indefensible. I had dozens of projects at my little business that cost more than removing one of those statues. The cost of policing the protests adjacent to the statue are certainly far, far higher.

The reason you won't answer the question is that you can't. Then again, you thought Hitler hadn't gone to war and you think Schlitz is beer, so I expect nothing better.
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« Reply #63 on: Sep 16, 2017, 03:04PM »

you think Schlitz is beer, so I expect nothing better.

 Good! Good! Good!

Just for the record, Schlitz is malt liquor, not beer
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« Reply #64 on: Sep 16, 2017, 04:53PM »

Good! Good! Good!

Just for the record, Schlitz is malt liquor, not beer

They had two original products. The dark original lager, and then the malt liquor. Ding dong above has been boozing on Old Swill.
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« Reply #65 on: Sep 16, 2017, 05:26PM »

Perfectly on topic. R.E. Lee was an enemy of the US, not an American war hero. There's no 'Hitler fallacy' here. We don't normally celebrate our defeated enemies--Mussolini, Tojo, Saddam Hussein, Tim McVeigh, the Unabomer etc.--in our public squares. I'm merely pointing out that you're making special pleading for the traitorous and murderous Confederate generals, so it's reasonable if you would make a similar accommodation to our other past enemies. If it's important to keep statues up to remind ourselves of our history, why not all those other guys? That's where your argument fails. Your claim that the cost of the statue removal speaks against doing it is just absurd and indefensible. I had dozens of projects at my litter business that cost more than removing one of those statues. The cost of policing the protests adjacent to the statue are certainly far, far higher.

The reason you won't answer the question is that you can't. Then again, you thought Hitler hadn't gone to war and you think Schlitz is beer, so I expect nothing better.

Iím talking about the civil war, and the associated monuments.Yes, your in a Hitler fallacy. And when youíre called on it, you bring in other figures. We have all sorts of reenactments for the Revolutionary, WO 1812, and Civil Wars. And we have a guided misleads cruiser named the Chancellorsville. And the Unabomber cabin is in a DC museum. It makes money. Concentrate on pop can refunds.
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« Reply #66 on: Sep 16, 2017, 05:54PM »

Iím talking about the civil war, and the associated monuments.Yes, your in a Hitler fallacy. And when youíre called on it, you bring in other figures. We have all sorts of reenactments for the Revolutionary, WO 1812, and Civil Wars. And we have a guided misleads cruiser named the Chancellorsville. And the Unabomber cabin is in a DC museum. It makes money. Concentrate on pop can refunds.


First of all, "Hitler fallacy" has a specific meaning. It isn't committed every time one mentions Hitler. You could look it up, or better yet have someone smart explain it to you.

Second of all, 'you're' isn't spelled 'your', as everyone in here except you knows (hey, you hit fifty percent, which is probably good for you). If you're the only one in the room who can't speak or write decently in your native language, maybe you should hang back, listen to the grownups talk, and finally learn something.

You're complaining about 'parallel arguments' mentioning other wars, but you might not have known that the Revolutionary War and War of 1812 are not the Civil War, so you're doing the same thing you're criticizing me for. In case you didn't notice, we don't have a lot of monuments for the losers of wars we won, other than the Confederacy. You might find a King George statue in a public square, but you'd look a long time for it. The Unabomer cabin is not a tribute to the heroism of the Unabomer. There's no Unabomer square--if you want to put your slavery-defending heroes in museums, go right ahead.

Your idea that we're stuck with these godawful statues because it costs too much money to take them down is absolutely ridiculous and reflects a misunderstanding of how the world works. As a businessperson, I can tell you that a cost like that is much easier and cheaper than deploying security to fend off you guys with your Nazi salutes. Over a third of the cost of removal is for security for keeping you guys from attacking the workers, and it's even more expensive if you leave them in place (ask Charlottesville).

I'm tired of kids like you who know little or nothing about life, the world, or business, and who can't speak a single language decently, thinking you can copy talking points off of facebook and fool adults.
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« Reply #67 on: Sep 16, 2017, 06:19PM »


First of all, "Hitler fallacy" has a specific meaning. It isn't committed every time one mentions Hitler. You could look it up, or better yet have someone smart explain it to you.

Second of all, 'you're' isn't spelled 'your', as everyone in here except you knows (hey, you hit fifty percent, which is probably good for you). If you're the only one in the room who can't speak or write decently in your native language, maybe you should hang back, listen to the grownups talk, and finally learn something.

You're complaining about 'parallel arguments' mentioning other wars, but you might not have known that the Revolutionary War and War of 1812 are not the Civil War, so you're doing the same thing you're criticizing me for. In case you didn't notice, we don't have a lot of monuments for the losers of wars we won, other than the Confederacy. You might find a King George statue, but you'd look a long time for it.

Your idea that we're stuck with these godawful statues because it costs too much money to take them down is absolutely ridiculous. As a businessperson, I can tell you that a cost like that is minimal. I hire contractors every week or so to do something similar in cost. It's much easier and cheaper than deploying security to fend off you guys with your Nazi salutes.

I'm tired of kids like you who know little or nothing about life or business, and who can't speak a single language decently, thinking you can copy talking points off of facebook and fool adults.

Youíre delusional basing your knowledge of job costing, on your litter business. Iím probably older than you too. Now, if you want to talk about confederate statues, Iím all ears. If not, Iím going to walk away. This is the problem with online forums. Hitler, King George, litter business, Facebook, and youíre all over the place. Nazi salutes?
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« Reply #68 on: Sep 16, 2017, 06:27PM »

Iím probably older than you too.

You should never, ever admit that. We were ready to cut you some slack thinking you were a kid.

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Now, if you want to talk about confederate statues, Iím all ears. If not, Iím going to walk away. This is the problem with online forums. Hitler, King George, litter business, Facebook, and youíre all over the place. Nazi salutes?

I am talking about Confederate statues. I think they should be torn down, at whatever cost, because they're offensive as public tributes. The folks they celebrate fought for slavery, firing on loyal American soldiers fighting under the Stars and Stripes, and we beat you guys.

Nazi salutes? Sure. Were you unaware that your fellow Confederate sympathizers were giving Nazi salutes in Charlottesville?


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« Reply #69 on: Sep 16, 2017, 06:29PM »

By the way, it's a 'little business' (less than two million a year gross), not a 'litter business'. My phone screwed that up. I still spell way better than you.
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« Reply #70 on: Sep 16, 2017, 06:35PM »

You should never, ever admit that. We were ready to cut you some slack thinking you were a kid.

He is a child.
 
He may have had a lot of years to grow out of it and become an adult, but he's quite clearly failed to pull it off.
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« Reply #71 on: Sep 16, 2017, 06:42PM »

Iím going to walk away.

Unfortunately I seriously doubt it.
 
It's a great idea, but you don't strike me as the type who has that kind of self-discipline, and your ego has been taking a beating in here, so no ... you're not likely to walk away.
 
You're going to require a lot more beating before you finally create some sort of internal narrative that explains why you were the hero kicking arse as you slink away with tail bravely tucked away.
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« Reply #72 on: Sep 16, 2017, 06:43PM »

[...] Iím going to walk away.

We're almost there. Trolls are confident until they get their ass handed to them. Or, as you would spell it, 'get they're ass handed to them.'
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« Reply #73 on: Sep 16, 2017, 06:51PM »

They had two original products. The dark original lager, and then the malt liquor. Ding dong above has been boozing on Old Swill.

I was making a joke. If you name yourself after Schlitz, you probably don't care much about beer. Literally speaking, they do make something strongly resembling beer.

Schlitz is a good beer in the same sense that your Confederate heroes are heroes.
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« Reply #74 on: Sep 16, 2017, 07:13PM »

How about this?--put an appropriate plaque on each statue, that would actually make it a teachable moment:
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Robert E. Lee was a traitor against the United States of America. His treason failed, and he was generously allowed to live. This statue was originally raised, long after the Civil War in which he fought, to intimidate Black citizens after Lee's cohort was deprived of the privilege of enslaving them. We have nonetheless allowed the statue to remain, as a warning to traitorous Americans who would fire on our loyal soldiers.

I'd leave 'em up, with that plaque.
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« Reply #75 on: Sep 17, 2017, 12:10AM »

Iíd keep it critical and less emotion. Lee didnít live too long. Arlington was created from his property. He had conditional amnesty and never had his full citizenship restored. I believe Ford did issue a full pardon. Executing him wouldíve made him a martyr. Racists tend to take a long time to die off. We spend no time in schools talking about the war, so we might as well keep the monuments with an accurate record, that provokes a population to learn more.
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« Reply #76 on: Sep 17, 2017, 02:26AM »

Iíd keep it critical and less emotion. Lee didnít live too long. Arlington was created from his property. He had conditional amnesty and never had his full citizenship restored. I believe Ford did issue a full pardon. Executing him wouldíve made him a martyr. Racists tend to take a long time to die off. We spend no time in schools talking about the war, so we might as well keep the monuments with an accurate record, that provokes a population to learn more.

Your best post ever, and I mean that.

I'll still posit that the R.E. Lee statues are not largely documents of Civil War history, but of Jim Crow history, because that's when they were erected.

Monuments, by definition, aren't an 'accurate record.' They reflect the passions of the day. That's why we don't have a ton of Saddam Hussein monuments in the South, even though he's a part of history just as surely as R.E. Lee. You're probably right that students don't spend enough time learning our history, but I don't think heroic statues of Robert E. Lee improve on that even a tiny bit.
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« Reply #77 on: Sep 17, 2017, 06:35AM »

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We spend no time in schools talking about the war, so we might as well keep the monuments with an accurate record, that provokes a population to learn more.

Then get it through your head:  You experience isnít EVERYONEíS experience.  I spent a lot of time in a Kentucky public school talking about the war, and having the ďstates rightsĒ and ďlost causeĒ garbage taught to me as fact.  So did the millions of other children in my state. 

I have vivid memories of loading up a school bus near Veteranís Day and going to a local cemetary, and being given Union flags and Confederate navy jack flags and lists of names of Union and Confederate veterans.  We didnít read about the primary sources like state articles of secession or the Cornerstone Speach.  We didnít talk about the oral history preserved in Union songs from the period that clearly pin the Republicís survival to abolition, or how many of the Southern songs were re-written post-1865.  There was a lot of talk in my little town about erecting a statue to Nathan Bedford Forrest because he fought a battle there.  There wasnít a mention about him forming the KKK after the war.  There werenít clear lessons about the Fugitive Slave Act, and how the Southern states compelled the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT to strip the Northern states of their right to shield runaway slaves. 

If you lived in the South during the last 150 years, this is what you were exposed to. 

In the last 30 years, with a glut of information out there, some of us have woken up.  And there are monuments to racists and traitors everywhere.  And theyíre offensive to us, AS AMERICANS.  (Just like a statue of Hitler would be offensive to us AS AMERICANS.  Thatís a dumb troll argument if ever Iíve seen one.). They represent the very ideals that the Declaration and the Constitution reject.  They publicly enshrine racism, white supremacy, and treason against the Republic.  In order to break the cycle, youíve got to break it.
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« Reply #78 on: Sep 17, 2017, 06:53AM »

Then get it through your head:  You experience isnít EVERYONEíS experience.  I spent a lot of time in a Kentucky public school talking about the war, and having the ďstates rightsĒ and ďlost causeĒ garbage taught to me as fact.  So did the millions of other children in my state. 


Growing up in Texas I had the same experience. The teachers adamantly insisted that the civil war was not over slavery.  Yeah, RIGHT.


They represent the very ideals that the Declaration and the Constitution reject.  They publicly enshrine racism, white supremacy, and treason against the Republic.  In order to break the cycle, youíve got to break it.

Very well stated.  Good!
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« Reply #79 on: Sep 17, 2017, 07:58AM »

Then get it through your head:  You experience isnít EVERYONEíS experience.  I spent a lot of time in a Kentucky public school talking about the war, and having the ďstates rightsĒ and ďlost causeĒ garbage taught to me as fact.  So did the millions of other children in my state. 

I have vivid memories of loading up a school bus near Veteranís Day and going to a local cemetary, and being given Union flags and Confederate navy jack flags and lists of names of Union and Confederate veterans.  We didnít read about the primary sources like state articles of secession or the Cornerstone Speach.  We didnít talk about the oral history preserved in Union songs from the period that clearly pin the Republicís survival to abolition, or how many of the Southern songs were re-written post-1865.  There was a lot of talk in my little town about erecting a statue to Nathan Bedford Forrest because he fought a battle there.  There wasnít a mention about him forming the KKK after the war.  There werenít clear lessons about the Fugitive Slave Act, and how the Southern states compelled the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT to strip the Northern states of their right to shield runaway slaves. 

If you lived in the South during the last 150 years, this is what you were exposed to. 

In the last 30 years, with a glut of information out there, some of us have woken up.  And there are monuments to racists and traitors everywhere.  And theyíre offensive to us, AS AMERICANS.  (Just like a statue of Hitler would be offensive to us AS AMERICANS.  Thatís a dumb troll argument if ever Iíve seen one.). They represent the very ideals that the Declaration and the Constitution reject.  They publicly enshrine racism, white supremacy, and treason against the Republic.  In order to break the cycle, youíve got to break it.

Well foff, not interested in you.
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« Reply #80 on: Sep 17, 2017, 02:21PM »

Strike one for language Schlitz
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