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The Trombone ForumPractice BreakChit-ChatPurely Politics(Moderators: bhcordova, RedHotMama, BFW) Conderacy hero statues, ingrained racism etc
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schlitzbeer
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« Reply #40 on: Sep 15, 2017, 08:13AM »


IOW, if only people would behave the way you'd like them to we'd all get a long fine ... and save some money which we could allocate for increased productivity/efficiency.
 
Unfortunately people clearly don't behave the way you'd like, and basing sociopolitical decisions on how things ought to be tends not to work out so well. It just affirms certain people and alienates other people, and it shouldn't be hard to imagine how the costs that builds up can be rather more than if you base social/political policy on how things actually are instead.

Well, you can wish with one hand, and crap in the other, Captain Obvious.
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Baron von Bone
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« Reply #41 on: Sep 15, 2017, 09:06AM »

The statues represent a time in our country where bad things happened. They are examples for teachable moments. As ugly as that time was, the monuments need to stay right where they are to remind us of that past. Large parts of our country still operate as racist enclaves. We donít need, or should spend millions to move them to cemeteries and battlefields. Weíve got a country of *******, hung up on bathrooms, monuments, and the dipshits that need to be politically correct. We need to build new infrastructure, tend to our waterways, health reform, education reform, and goddamnit, PULL UP YOUR PANTS!!!
IOW, if only people would behave the way you'd like them to we'd all get a long fine ... and save some money which we could allocate for increased productivity/efficiency.
 
Unfortunately people clearly don't behave the way you'd like, and basing sociopolitical decisions on how things ought to be tends not to work out so well. It just affirms certain people and alienates other people, and it shouldn't be hard to imagine how the costs that builds up can be rather more than if you base social/political policy on how things actually are instead.
Well, you can wish with one hand, and crap in the other, Captain Obvious.

So you're in agreement that the notion that your position is based upon what should be rather than what is is obviously ill conceived then.
 
If you agree that it's obvious I gather the initial post was just an oversight or a brain cramp?
 
Cool if so--no more controversy, and without the usual rabbit chasing and other silly rhetorical games.
 
Your candor is much appreciated!
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schlitzbeer
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« Reply #42 on: Sep 15, 2017, 09:21AM »

IOW, if only people would behave the way you'd like them to we'd all get a long fine ... and save some money which we could allocate for increased productivity/efficiency.
 
Unfortunately people clearly don't behave the way you'd like, and basing sociopolitical decisions on how things ought to be tends not to work out so well. It just affirms certain people and alienates other people, and it shouldn't be hard to imagine how the costs that builds up can be rather more than if you base social/political policy on how things actually are instead.Well, you can wish with one hand, and crap in the other, Captain Obvious.
So you're in agreement that the notion that your position is based upon what should be rather than what is is obviously ill conceived then.
 
If you agree that it's obvious I gather the initial post was just an oversight or a brain cramp?
 
Cool if so--no more controversy, and without the usual rabbit chasing and other silly rhetorical games.
 
Your candor is much appreciated!

I don't need to know about your conversations with a sex therapist.
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Stan

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« Reply #43 on: Sep 15, 2017, 09:36AM »

Quote
The statues represent a time in our country where bad things happened. They are examples for teachable moments. As ugly as that time was, the monuments need to stay right where they are to remind us of that past. Large parts of our country still operate as racist enclaves. We donít need, or should spend millions to move them to cemeteries and battlefields. Weíve got a country of *******, hung up on bathrooms, monuments, and the dipshits that need to be politically correct. We need to build new infrastructure, tend to our waterways, health reform, education reform, and goddamnit, PULL UP YOUR PANTS!!!

So you're clearly in camp #3, people who just don't get it.

Those statues don't stand in the South as examples of teachable moments.  Get it through your head.  Nobody in the South looks at them and says, "Gosh, that guy came really close to destroying everything America was supposed to mean."  They're "monuments" to "heroes" whose "cause" was noble and just.  When, in fact, they're shoddy pieces hastily assembled and set into place to remind people that whites are superior.  End of story. 

Also, you're wrong about the bathrooms and dipshits.  We've got an aging population who, against all reason, is clinging to 1950s social norms while the world moves on without them.
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MrPillow
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« Reply #44 on: Sep 15, 2017, 09:39AM »

Maybe a overshadowing statue of MLK erected next to each confederate statue, swinging a baseball bat at its head?
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« Reply #45 on: Sep 15, 2017, 10:34AM »

Hitler wasnít in the Civil War. Iím pretty sure thereís no civil war monuments that feature him.

I understand that perfectly. You're proposing to leave up a statue celeebrating America's enemies (both Robert E. Lee and Hitler fought against the US and lost) because it would cost too much to remove. I'm asking if you'd make the same accommodation to a Hitler statue, for the same reason.
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« Reply #46 on: Sep 15, 2017, 10:46AM »

I don't need to know about your conversations with a sex therapist.

So you weren't able to maintain the context of the discussion over the course of three posts, it would seem ...
 
Don't feel too bad. You have company, and the norm with that skill definitely seems to be going lower.
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« Reply #47 on: Sep 15, 2017, 10:53AM »

I love the folly that Main Streets and government buildings need divisive "teachable moment" statuary that is presented without context: "He's whipping the slave, but what you don't know is that he was actually quite progressive for his time!"

The historic murals in (the American sitcom) Parks & Recreation come to mind:



 Yeah, RIGHT.
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« Reply #48 on: Sep 15, 2017, 10:59AM »



 Idea!
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« Reply #49 on: Sep 15, 2017, 12:04PM »

If you read the declarations of causes of succession from the states that succeeded that issued independent statements as to the reasons for their succession it is pretty clear that the Succession of these states would not have happened where it not for the issue of slavery.  If there had not been Slavery in the South it is hard to make a case that the Civil war would have happened anyways.  Sure they also mentioned "States Rights" but it is obvious the most important right they wanted to preserve was their right to own other human beings as property.  When you erect statues honoring men who fought to keep Africans enslaved you should, if your a reasonable person ask yourself how do these people whose ancestors where enslaved feel when they walk past statues on public property everyday honoring men who fought to deny them and their ancestors freedom.  No one is asking anyone to rewrite history or deny that this took place, but to keep Confederate Monuments in place honoring people who fought to keep other Humans in bondage is an insult to those who are descended from those people who were considered sub-human.  I'm a Northerner and don't have the same background and prospective as someone raised in the south, so to me I don't consider Stonewall Jackson, Jefferson Davis, or Robert E. Lee heros.  They fought hard, and were intelligent competent leaders but I also think they were fighting for a misguided cause.  I don't idolize them anymore than I would Hitler, or Rommel.

https://www.civilwar.org/learn/primary-sources/declaration-causes-seceding-states
   
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« Reply #50 on: Sep 15, 2017, 03:57PM »

I understand that perfectly. You're proposing to leave up a statue celeebrating America's enemies (both Robert E. Lee and Hitler fought against the US and lost) because it would cost too much to remove. I'm asking if you'd make the same accommodation to a Hitler statue, for the same reason.

No, you donít understand it. Hitler wasnít in the war.
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« Reply #51 on: Sep 15, 2017, 04:22PM »

FYI:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_slavery
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« Reply #52 on: Sep 15, 2017, 04:36PM »

No, you donít understand it. Hitler wasnít in the war.

That's only slightly more compelling (but no more honest) than arguing that a vandal didn't paint white supremacist graffiti on a black church because he didn't dot the "i" on the N Word ... so it isn't an "i" because an "i" has a dot, so it can't be the N Word, therefore it isn't white supremacist graffiti.
 
You're arguing a ridiculously transparent technicality as if you're really stupid enough to think it's an argument. It's unlikely you think anyone else is actually stupid enough to buy it, so it's more about defiance of basic social and intellectual responsibility. I suppose it's possible you're talented enough at self-deception and have a casual enough relationship with the truth to have convinced yourself, but it's not going to impress anyone else who's not pretty deeply invested in the same ridiculously transparent self-deception.
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« Reply #53 on: Sep 15, 2017, 04:52PM »

Hitler wasnít in the Civil War. Iím pretty sure thereís no civil war monuments that feature him.

What an asinine response. I can't believe you didn't get the point he was making.
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schlitzbeer
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« Reply #54 on: Sep 15, 2017, 05:27PM »

What an asinine response. I can't believe you didn't get the point he was making.

I donít think you get it at all. Hitler is not in the conversation. If you want to start a thread about accommodations and preservations of Hitler statues, please do so. We are talking about the Confederacy. Hitler fallacies donít apply. Double up on the medications please.
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« Reply #55 on: Sep 15, 2017, 05:32PM »


That's only slightly more compelling (but no more honest) than arguing that a vandal didn't paint white supremacist graffiti on a black church because he didn't dot the "i" on the N Word ... so it isn't an "i" because an "i" has a dot, so it can't be the N Word, therefore it isn't white supremacist graffiti.
 
You're arguing a ridiculously transparent technicality as if you're really stupid enough to think it's an argument. It's unlikely you think anyone else is actually stupid enough to buy it, so it's more about defiance of basic social and intellectual responsibility. I suppose it's possible you're talented enough at self-deception and have a casual enough relationship with the truth to have convinced yourself, but it's not going to impress anyone else who's not pretty deeply invested in the same ridiculously transparent self-deception.

You were stupid enough to respond.
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Baron von Bone
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« Reply #56 on: Sep 15, 2017, 08:10PM »

You were stupid enough to respond.

That's actually a valid point.
 
You did it!
 
Maybe you should stop there though ... eh?
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« Reply #57 on: Sep 15, 2017, 09:38PM »


That's actually a valid point.
 
You did it!
 
Maybe you should stop there though ... eh?

Iíve got $20 on you already that youíre a 1uper.
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« Reply #58 on: Sep 15, 2017, 10:32PM »

No, you donít understand it. Hitler wasnít in the war.

Hitler didn't go to war? LOL!
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« Reply #59 on: Sep 15, 2017, 10:39PM »

Hitler didn't go to war? LOL!


Hitler wasnít in the civil war. If youíre that obsessed about statues of Hitler, start your own thread ON WWII.
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