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The Trombone ForumPractice BreakChit-ChatPurely Politics(Moderators: bhcordova, RedHotMama, BFW) Conderacy hero statues, ingrained racism etc
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« Reply #60 on: Sep 15, 2017, 10:57PM »


Hitler wasnít in the civil war. If youíre that obsessed about statues of Hitler, start your own thread ON WWII.

Uhhh, Schlitz, you aren't the topic cop.

A parallel was drawn about statues honoring those on the losing side in the history of wars.

I get what he is saying. You obviously don't.
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« Reply #61 on: Sep 15, 2017, 11:38PM »

Uhhh, Schlitz, you aren't the topic cop.

A parallel was drawn about statues honoring those on the losing side in the history of wars.

I get what he is saying. You obviously don't.

Parallel arguments arenít on topic. And no, I donít have to respond to them. Look up the Hitler fallacies. And if youíre going to pull the technical argument crap, itís Confederacy.
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« Reply #62 on: Sep 16, 2017, 01:08AM »

Parallel arguments arenít on topic. And no, I donít have to respond to them. Look up the Hitler fallacies. And if youíre going to pull the technical argument crap, itís Confederacy.

Perfectly on topic. R.E. Lee was an enemy of the US, not an American war hero. There's no 'Hitler fallacy' here. We don't normally celebrate our defeated enemies--Mussolini, Tojo, Saddam Hussein, Tim McVeigh, the Unabomer etc.--in our public squares. I'm merely pointing out that you're making special pleading for the traitorous and murderous Confederate generals, so it's reasonable if you would make a similar accommodation to our other past enemies. If it's important to keep statues up to remind ourselves of our history, why not all those other guys? That's where your argument fails. Your claim that the cost of the statue removal speaks against doing it is just absurd and indefensible. I had dozens of projects at my little business that cost more than removing one of those statues. The cost of policing the protests adjacent to the statue are certainly far, far higher.

The reason you won't answer the question is that you can't. Then again, you thought Hitler hadn't gone to war and you think Schlitz is beer, so I expect nothing better.
« Last Edit: Sep 16, 2017, 06:40PM by Piano man » Logged

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« Reply #63 on: Sep 16, 2017, 03:04PM »

you think Schlitz is beer, so I expect nothing better.

 Good! Good! Good!

Just for the record, Schlitz is malt liquor, not beer
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« Reply #64 on: Sep 16, 2017, 04:53PM »

Good! Good! Good!

Just for the record, Schlitz is malt liquor, not beer

They had two original products. The dark original lager, and then the malt liquor. Ding dong above has been boozing on Old Swill.
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« Reply #65 on: Sep 16, 2017, 05:26PM »

Perfectly on topic. R.E. Lee was an enemy of the US, not an American war hero. There's no 'Hitler fallacy' here. We don't normally celebrate our defeated enemies--Mussolini, Tojo, Saddam Hussein, Tim McVeigh, the Unabomer etc.--in our public squares. I'm merely pointing out that you're making special pleading for the traitorous and murderous Confederate generals, so it's reasonable if you would make a similar accommodation to our other past enemies. If it's important to keep statues up to remind ourselves of our history, why not all those other guys? That's where your argument fails. Your claim that the cost of the statue removal speaks against doing it is just absurd and indefensible. I had dozens of projects at my litter business that cost more than removing one of those statues. The cost of policing the protests adjacent to the statue are certainly far, far higher.

The reason you won't answer the question is that you can't. Then again, you thought Hitler hadn't gone to war and you think Schlitz is beer, so I expect nothing better.

Iím talking about the civil war, and the associated monuments.Yes, your in a Hitler fallacy. And when youíre called on it, you bring in other figures. We have all sorts of reenactments for the Revolutionary, WO 1812, and Civil Wars. And we have a guided misleads cruiser named the Chancellorsville. And the Unabomber cabin is in a DC museum. It makes money. Concentrate on pop can refunds.
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« Reply #66 on: Sep 16, 2017, 05:54PM »

Iím talking about the civil war, and the associated monuments.Yes, your in a Hitler fallacy. And when youíre called on it, you bring in other figures. We have all sorts of reenactments for the Revolutionary, WO 1812, and Civil Wars. And we have a guided misleads cruiser named the Chancellorsville. And the Unabomber cabin is in a DC museum. It makes money. Concentrate on pop can refunds.


First of all, "Hitler fallacy" has a specific meaning. It isn't committed every time one mentions Hitler. You could look it up, or better yet have someone smart explain it to you.

Second of all, 'you're' isn't spelled 'your', as everyone in here except you knows (hey, you hit fifty percent, which is probably good for you). If you're the only one in the room who can't speak or write decently in your native language, maybe you should hang back, listen to the grownups talk, and finally learn something.

You're complaining about 'parallel arguments' mentioning other wars, but you might not have known that the Revolutionary War and War of 1812 are not the Civil War, so you're doing the same thing you're criticizing me for. In case you didn't notice, we don't have a lot of monuments for the losers of wars we won, other than the Confederacy. You might find a King George statue in a public square, but you'd look a long time for it. The Unabomer cabin is not a tribute to the heroism of the Unabomer. There's no Unabomer square--if you want to put your slavery-defending heroes in museums, go right ahead.

Your idea that we're stuck with these godawful statues because it costs too much money to take them down is absolutely ridiculous and reflects a misunderstanding of how the world works. As a businessperson, I can tell you that a cost like that is much easier and cheaper than deploying security to fend off you guys with your Nazi salutes. Over a third of the cost of removal is for security for keeping you guys from attacking the workers, and it's even more expensive if you leave them in place (ask Charlottesville).

I'm tired of kids like you who know little or nothing about life, the world, or business, and who can't speak a single language decently, thinking you can copy talking points off of facebook and fool adults.
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« Reply #67 on: Sep 16, 2017, 06:19PM »


First of all, "Hitler fallacy" has a specific meaning. It isn't committed every time one mentions Hitler. You could look it up, or better yet have someone smart explain it to you.

Second of all, 'you're' isn't spelled 'your', as everyone in here except you knows (hey, you hit fifty percent, which is probably good for you). If you're the only one in the room who can't speak or write decently in your native language, maybe you should hang back, listen to the grownups talk, and finally learn something.

You're complaining about 'parallel arguments' mentioning other wars, but you might not have known that the Revolutionary War and War of 1812 are not the Civil War, so you're doing the same thing you're criticizing me for. In case you didn't notice, we don't have a lot of monuments for the losers of wars we won, other than the Confederacy. You might find a King George statue, but you'd look a long time for it.

Your idea that we're stuck with these godawful statues because it costs too much money to take them down is absolutely ridiculous. As a businessperson, I can tell you that a cost like that is minimal. I hire contractors every week or so to do something similar in cost. It's much easier and cheaper than deploying security to fend off you guys with your Nazi salutes.

I'm tired of kids like you who know little or nothing about life or business, and who can't speak a single language decently, thinking you can copy talking points off of facebook and fool adults.

Youíre delusional basing your knowledge of job costing, on your litter business. Iím probably older than you too. Now, if you want to talk about confederate statues, Iím all ears. If not, Iím going to walk away. This is the problem with online forums. Hitler, King George, litter business, Facebook, and youíre all over the place. Nazi salutes?
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« Reply #68 on: Sep 16, 2017, 06:27PM »

Iím probably older than you too.

You should never, ever admit that. We were ready to cut you some slack thinking you were a kid.

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Now, if you want to talk about confederate statues, Iím all ears. If not, Iím going to walk away. This is the problem with online forums. Hitler, King George, litter business, Facebook, and youíre all over the place. Nazi salutes?

I am talking about Confederate statues. I think they should be torn down, at whatever cost, because they're offensive as public tributes. The folks they celebrate fought for slavery, firing on loyal American soldiers fighting under the Stars and Stripes, and we beat you guys.

Nazi salutes? Sure. Were you unaware that your fellow Confederate sympathizers were giving Nazi salutes in Charlottesville?


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« Reply #69 on: Sep 16, 2017, 06:29PM »

By the way, it's a 'little business' (less than two million a year gross), not a 'litter business'. My phone screwed that up. I still spell way better than you.
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« Reply #70 on: Sep 16, 2017, 06:35PM »

You should never, ever admit that. We were ready to cut you some slack thinking you were a kid.

He is a child.
 
He may have had a lot of years to grow out of it and become an adult, but he's quite clearly failed to pull it off.
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« Reply #71 on: Sep 16, 2017, 06:42PM »

Iím going to walk away.

Unfortunately I seriously doubt it.
 
It's a great idea, but you don't strike me as the type who has that kind of self-discipline, and your ego has been taking a beating in here, so no ... you're not likely to walk away.
 
You're going to require a lot more beating before you finally create some sort of internal narrative that explains why you were the hero kicking arse as you slink away with tail bravely tucked away.
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« Reply #72 on: Sep 16, 2017, 06:43PM »

[...] Iím going to walk away.

We're almost there. Trolls are confident until they get their ass handed to them. Or, as you would spell it, 'get they're ass handed to them.'
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« Reply #73 on: Sep 16, 2017, 06:51PM »

They had two original products. The dark original lager, and then the malt liquor. Ding dong above has been boozing on Old Swill.

I was making a joke. If you name yourself after Schlitz, you probably don't care much about beer. Literally speaking, they do make something strongly resembling beer.

Schlitz is a good beer in the same sense that your Confederate heroes are heroes.
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« Reply #74 on: Sep 16, 2017, 07:13PM »

How about this?--put an appropriate plaque on each statue, that would actually make it a teachable moment:
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Robert E. Lee was a traitor against the United States of America. His treason failed, and he was generously allowed to live. This statue was originally raised, long after the Civil War in which he fought, to intimidate Black citizens after Lee's cohort was deprived of the privilege of enslaving them. We have nonetheless allowed the statue to remain, as a warning to traitorous Americans who would fire on our loyal soldiers.

I'd leave 'em up, with that plaque.
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« Reply #75 on: Sep 17, 2017, 12:10AM »

Iíd keep it critical and less emotion. Lee didnít live too long. Arlington was created from his property. He had conditional amnesty and never had his full citizenship restored. I believe Ford did issue a full pardon. Executing him wouldíve made him a martyr. Racists tend to take a long time to die off. We spend no time in schools talking about the war, so we might as well keep the monuments with an accurate record, that provokes a population to learn more.
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« Reply #76 on: Sep 17, 2017, 02:26AM »

Iíd keep it critical and less emotion. Lee didnít live too long. Arlington was created from his property. He had conditional amnesty and never had his full citizenship restored. I believe Ford did issue a full pardon. Executing him wouldíve made him a martyr. Racists tend to take a long time to die off. We spend no time in schools talking about the war, so we might as well keep the monuments with an accurate record, that provokes a population to learn more.

Your best post ever, and I mean that.

I'll still posit that the R.E. Lee statues are not largely documents of Civil War history, but of Jim Crow history, because that's when they were erected.

Monuments, by definition, aren't an 'accurate record.' They reflect the passions of the day. That's why we don't have a ton of Saddam Hussein monuments in the South, even though he's a part of history just as surely as R.E. Lee. You're probably right that students don't spend enough time learning our history, but I don't think heroic statues of Robert E. Lee improve on that even a tiny bit.
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« Reply #77 on: Sep 17, 2017, 06:35AM »

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We spend no time in schools talking about the war, so we might as well keep the monuments with an accurate record, that provokes a population to learn more.

Then get it through your head:  You experience isnít EVERYONEíS experience.  I spent a lot of time in a Kentucky public school talking about the war, and having the ďstates rightsĒ and ďlost causeĒ garbage taught to me as fact.  So did the millions of other children in my state. 

I have vivid memories of loading up a school bus near Veteranís Day and going to a local cemetary, and being given Union flags and Confederate navy jack flags and lists of names of Union and Confederate veterans.  We didnít read about the primary sources like state articles of secession or the Cornerstone Speach.  We didnít talk about the oral history preserved in Union songs from the period that clearly pin the Republicís survival to abolition, or how many of the Southern songs were re-written post-1865.  There was a lot of talk in my little town about erecting a statue to Nathan Bedford Forrest because he fought a battle there.  There wasnít a mention about him forming the KKK after the war.  There werenít clear lessons about the Fugitive Slave Act, and how the Southern states compelled the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT to strip the Northern states of their right to shield runaway slaves. 

If you lived in the South during the last 150 years, this is what you were exposed to. 

In the last 30 years, with a glut of information out there, some of us have woken up.  And there are monuments to racists and traitors everywhere.  And theyíre offensive to us, AS AMERICANS.  (Just like a statue of Hitler would be offensive to us AS AMERICANS.  Thatís a dumb troll argument if ever Iíve seen one.). They represent the very ideals that the Declaration and the Constitution reject.  They publicly enshrine racism, white supremacy, and treason against the Republic.  In order to break the cycle, youíve got to break it.
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« Reply #78 on: Sep 17, 2017, 06:53AM »

Then get it through your head:  You experience isnít EVERYONEíS experience.  I spent a lot of time in a Kentucky public school talking about the war, and having the ďstates rightsĒ and ďlost causeĒ garbage taught to me as fact.  So did the millions of other children in my state. 


Growing up in Texas I had the same experience. The teachers adamantly insisted that the civil war was not over slavery.  Yeah, RIGHT.


They represent the very ideals that the Declaration and the Constitution reject.  They publicly enshrine racism, white supremacy, and treason against the Republic.  In order to break the cycle, youíve got to break it.

Very well stated.  Good!
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« Reply #79 on: Sep 17, 2017, 07:58AM »

Then get it through your head:  You experience isnít EVERYONEíS experience.  I spent a lot of time in a Kentucky public school talking about the war, and having the ďstates rightsĒ and ďlost causeĒ garbage taught to me as fact.  So did the millions of other children in my state. 

I have vivid memories of loading up a school bus near Veteranís Day and going to a local cemetary, and being given Union flags and Confederate navy jack flags and lists of names of Union and Confederate veterans.  We didnít read about the primary sources like state articles of secession or the Cornerstone Speach.  We didnít talk about the oral history preserved in Union songs from the period that clearly pin the Republicís survival to abolition, or how many of the Southern songs were re-written post-1865.  There was a lot of talk in my little town about erecting a statue to Nathan Bedford Forrest because he fought a battle there.  There wasnít a mention about him forming the KKK after the war.  There werenít clear lessons about the Fugitive Slave Act, and how the Southern states compelled the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT to strip the Northern states of their right to shield runaway slaves. 

If you lived in the South during the last 150 years, this is what you were exposed to. 

In the last 30 years, with a glut of information out there, some of us have woken up.  And there are monuments to racists and traitors everywhere.  And theyíre offensive to us, AS AMERICANS.  (Just like a statue of Hitler would be offensive to us AS AMERICANS.  Thatís a dumb troll argument if ever Iíve seen one.). They represent the very ideals that the Declaration and the Constitution reject.  They publicly enshrine racism, white supremacy, and treason against the Republic.  In order to break the cycle, youíve got to break it.

Well foff, not interested in you.
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