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Author Topic: Conn 60H  (Read 3173 times)
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Burgerbob

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« on: Sep 13, 2017, 10:19PM »

I've taken a step towards the dark side and bought an eBay Elkhart 60H.

It's in pretty good shape (former school horn!), and plays pretty well. Some Conn wear, but not a lot. Valve has a tiny amount of play but it's clean.

The horn plays well, but the leadpipe has been reamed out by too many Morse shanks and it plays like it has. I'm going to have it pulled, and I've been advised to replace it with a cheap new 50 leadpipe. I see nothing wrong with this, unless someone here advises me otherwise.

Right now it feels similar to the beater 70H I borrowed from UCLA for a few months, but easier to find the "sweet spot" on, even with my 1G. I'm excited to see how it performs with a new leadpipe.
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« Reply #1 on: Sep 13, 2017, 10:34PM »

Congratulations! Is the mouthpiece going fare into the horn? So it does on mine too. More than other horns I have. I use mine as my main horn so I'm afraid to do something with it. Let us hear how it goes if you switch leadpipe? I don't know any about it.

Leif
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« Reply #2 on: Sep 13, 2017, 11:44PM »

In my experience with basses, people who play, and like Bachs never get on with Conns in the long term, same with Conn players who try Bachs.... they are so different. You can mess with the pipe and you might get lucky but it is hard to get a Conn to be Bach-like in any way. Part of what makes the Conn is that feel you are talking about. Morse shanks are not likely to alter the Conn pipe as it has a more shallow taper.... they are often big and take a lot of mouthpiece shank as Savio says.

Chris Stearn
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Still cannot think of anything better to do. Back on an old 1 1/2G again !
Burgerbob

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« Reply #3 on: Sep 13, 2017, 11:57PM »

I'm not really trying to get it to be Bach-like, just playable. If there's another cheap leadpipe out there I can replace it with, I will.

The currently leadpipe has "steps" inside from Morse shanks being pushed in too far. It would also be nice to use modern mouthpiece with a little more ease!
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Bach 50B, ditto
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Stewbones43

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« Reply #4 on: Sep 14, 2017, 02:18AM »

You say that there is some wear on the valve, if this is lateral wear i.e. with the valve moving along the axis of the spindle, a simple solution is to drill a small hole in the centre of the removable cap and then thread it to accept a needle point screw. This can then be adjusted to prevent any valve slap and tightened if any more wear occurs, probably in about another 50 years. This technique solved a problem on the worn Holton valves on my TR 181-based bass.

Cheers

Stewbones
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Burgerbob

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« Reply #5 on: Sep 14, 2017, 02:29AM »

It has a little play that direction, and then the other axis too. So if I feel like fixing it (it's much more minor than my 42B valve was or the 70H I used previously) maybe a replate for the core.
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Brasslab 50T3, Greg Glack 1G .312 #2
Bach 50B, ditto
Conn 60H, ditto
Bach 42B, Greg Black NY 1.25
Conn 6H, King 7MD
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Yamaha YBH-301MS, Hammond 12XL
bonesmarsh
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« Reply #6 on: Sep 14, 2017, 05:44AM »

Having owned beautiful priceless 72H ( Elkhart) and early Abilene 60H, made from Elkhart parts, myself:

Before you decide that the leadpipe is the problem-
Buy a Rath B2 or a Conn 3B mouthpiece, and then
PRACTICE PRACTICE PRACTICE

Before you begin to get busy with a torch and a repair shop, get your own chops in order. Pull the horn to bE instead of F. And then
PRACTICE PRACTICE PRACTICE

There is nothing wrong with the leadpipe. The problem ( if there is one) is with your chops and you inexperience playing that particular 60H.
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BGuttman
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« Reply #7 on: Sep 14, 2017, 06:14AM »

Marsh, Burgerbob is no beginner.  He's gotten a lot of experience since he joined here a few years ago.  I guess you didn't listen to his recital that he posted a link to.  When he says the leadpipe is trashed, he knows whereof he speaks.

Aidan, you might what to see if Sandhagen or Close has a leadpipe they can put in. 

Incidentlly, Stewbones, my Mirafone F has those screws in the valve caps.  They were original equipment.  The manual I got from them showed how to adjust them.
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Bruce Guttman
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« Reply #8 on: Sep 14, 2017, 06:32AM »

Thanks for the heads-up. Bruce.

Yes, when I'm having my morning coffee I look into the recital scene on youtube...even the ones promoed here so frequently. Now, Bruce, please think about the following:

What are the TEACHERS of those who post on youtube doing with their day?
Or do they not have time to do promo stuff, as profs and teachers, because they are playing professional service rehearsals or teaching, and don't have the spare time to amuse the peanut gallery here?

Bruce, I'll say it again-- before ANYONE-- ANYONE-- takes a torch or a saw to an Elkhart Conn, they had better set their own house in order, do some serious time travel, and get in touch with WHAT WAS, not what IS.

And, then, and then only, maybe after they've had a few years of professional day to day, nuts and bolts, experience in the real world counting rest for 45 minutes, and then finding out that the best thing about an Elkhart 60H in Bb/bE is the security of knowing with 1000% self assessment, that the 60H will cover your a** anywhere...without modification.


One moderator here-- with 50 years of professional experience-- and likely a few more decades on top of that of discretion and weighed statements in public, has stated that Bach players might not get on with Conn horns.

Okay, I'll throw in my 35 years of professional experience, and before anybody on youtube takes a torch to an old Conn ( again) I'll say it point blank: If you want to get a vintage Conn to play like a Bach, because you haven't spent years playing a Conn 8 to 12 hours a day, just put the torch aside, and get your credit card out, or mummy and daddie's credit card, and just buy a Yamaha. Neither Conn, nor Bach, just a Yamaha.
And leave the old horns alone until you are serious about something more with it than just playing a recital and then posting it on youtube and waiting for a gig.
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BGuttman
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« Reply #9 on: Sep 14, 2017, 06:45AM »

He's not trying to make it play like a Bach.  He's got a Bach that plays like a Bach.  He's just trying to replace a dead leadpipe.  He thought a Bach 50 copy would be inexpensive.  I'd bet he also wants to fit Morse Taper mouthpieces.

He's not far from Brad Close or John Sandhagen (or Bruce Belo) who can all give him good suggestions on what to do.  I think he ws trying to arm himself for the discussion.

As to torching an Elkie, this was a school horn.  I'd bet it had LOTS of torching done to it in the past.  It's not pristine by any measure.
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« Reply #10 on: Sep 14, 2017, 06:58AM »

And get off my lawn!

Aidan is a serious player. I also believe him that the old leadpipe is worn out from having the wrong mouthpieces jammed into it. No matter how good a design is, if it's broken it needs to be fixed or replaced.

I don't think I would put a Bach pipe into a 60H, at least not without trying options that are more like what was designed for it. Go see Noah and Brad, have Brad pull the old pipe, and try what they've got.
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Gabe Langfur
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« Reply #11 on: Sep 14, 2017, 07:05AM »

I get the whole reverence for old Conns thing, I've got a few. But there is also the practicality of maintaining an instrument that is in actual use. I'm also there with not using the 50 leadpipe just because it's convenient/cheap, but I don't think there's anything wrong in principle with replacing a leadpipe on a classic horn in the line of maintenance. If the choice is to maintain the horn or stop playing it, the answer seems obvious. If the horn did school duty, it is probably not a museum piece.  I would replace the pipe with a Brass Ark Burt Herrick 62 or the George Roberts 70h(ish) pipe. If you need something a little cheaper, a Kanstul 62 or GR2 will help maintain the original sound. Steering him to an appropriate pipe is better than discouraging the maintenance altogether.

 

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bigbassbone1

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« Reply #12 on: Sep 14, 2017, 11:32AM »

Thanks for the heads-up. Bruce.

Yes, when I'm having my morning coffee I look into the recital scene on youtube...even the ones promoed here so frequently. Now, Bruce, please think about the following:

What are the TEACHERS of those who post on youtube doing with their day?
Or do they not have time to do promo stuff, as profs and teachers, because they are playing professional service rehearsals or teaching, and don't have the spare time to amuse the peanut gallery here?

Bruce, I'll say it again-- before ANYONE-- ANYONE-- takes a torch or a saw to an Elkhart Conn, they had better set their own house in order, do some serious time travel, and get in touch with WHAT WAS, not what IS.

And, then, and then only, maybe after they've had a few years of professional day to day, nuts and bolts, experience in the real world counting rest for 45 minutes, and then finding out that the best thing about an Elkhart 60H in Bb/bE is the security of knowing with 1000% self assessment, that the 60H will cover your a** anywhere...without modification.


One moderator here-- with 50 years of professional experience-- and likely a few more decades on top of that of discretion and weighed statements in public, has stated that Bach players might not get on with Conn horns.

Okay, I'll throw in my 35 years of professional experience, and before anybody on youtube takes a torch to an old Conn ( again) I'll say it point blank: If you want to get a vintage Conn to play like a Bach, because you haven't spent years playing a Conn 8 to 12 hours a day, just put the torch aside, and get your credit card out, or mummy and daddie's credit card, and just buy a Yamaha. Neither Conn, nor Bach, just a Yamaha.
And leave the old horns alone until you are serious about something more with it than just playing a recital and then posting it on youtube and waiting for a gig.

Ummmmm......  :D

Pretty sure the best teachers and performers do in fact put a lot of their recitals or concerts on youtube.... some even have enough time to make videos freely giving away their thoughts and demonstrations of their pedagogical concepts. Do a search for Pollard or Markey just to name a couple.

I'm sure if you spent 8 to 12 hours a day playing an old conn you could in fact get it to work really well and be good in most performance situations. But having said that, assuming the person is a competent player I reckon if you spent 8 to 12 hours a day on pretty much anything you could make it work effectively if you were committed enough.

It's been said, but Aidan doesn't want it to sound like a bach.... he didn't say that. That seemed to come up out of nowhere!
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« Reply #13 on: Sep 14, 2017, 11:33AM »

My mouthpiece go long way into my leadpipe, but when I see down into it with a light it looks ok. And it sounds ok too. It might not be broken Aidan? Mine is not, Im very sure.

Leif
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« Reply #14 on: Sep 14, 2017, 11:38AM »

Hard for players who have not spent a good amount of time on Conns to tell if the leadpipe is past it. It's a very American vibe to change pipes as a first stop on the way to getting into a horn. We in this sad little island tend to change pipes on old horns as a last resort, not a first one.... which accounts for my view. My modern Conn has a vintage pipe from a 70H in it.... it seems to make sense.... at least to me. Kanstul pipes play like Kanstul pipes.... Conn, Minick, Herrick... nah....
Conns and Bachs are a different world....
Fact.
You play them in a whole different way.

Chris Stearn
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Burgerbob

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« Reply #15 on: Sep 14, 2017, 12:18PM »

For reference, here's my teacher in a video (on the left, Alex Iles on the right)-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3C3aL6NpXGM


I was recommended the 50 leadpipe by a well-known and knowledged tech, who said it was a good drop-in replacement.

Have no fear! I'm not putting dual Thayers on it. Yet...
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BillO
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« Reply #16 on: Sep 14, 2017, 12:26PM »

Having a $50 leadpipe put in may make the project run about $125-$150?   Don't know

There is a Conn SL6262 for sale on TTF with 3 leadpipes that will probably not loose $150 off it's re-sale value over a year or two.  It's another option.

I just noticed the 60H had TIS.  Please ignore.
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Never look at the conductor. You just encourage them.

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« Reply #17 on: Sep 14, 2017, 12:27PM »

For reference, here's my teacher in the video (on the left)-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3C3aL6NpXGM

I was recommended the 50 leadpipe by a well-known and knowledged tech, who said it was a good drop-in replacement.

Have no fear! I'm not putting dual Thayers on it. Yet...

Whatever dude...  Go practice.     :/


 Pant
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« Reply #18 on: Sep 14, 2017, 12:47PM »

Yeah, Burgerbob, I want some long tones!  Six hours worth!  Get to work!

 :)
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« Reply #19 on: Sep 14, 2017, 03:49PM »

The $50 50B pipe will work well but trust me that it's worth the extra money for one of Noah's pipes.

The George Roberts pipe or the 62H Herrick pipe would both probably work pretty well!
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