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The Trombone ForumHorns, Gear, and EquipmentTechnology(Moderator: john sandhagen) Home Recording Studio Discussion
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Pre59

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« Reply #20 on: Sep 21, 2017, 02:02AM »

Yep. That's what I'm looking at and I should rearrange to keep the cables as short as possible. If it's a weak point in my home recording studio, it is easily correctable for a little bit of money, instead of a lot of money.

...Geezer

Good quality cabling and other accessories are available at low prices like never before. Most lower end pro cable is oxygen free with XLR's with decent strain relief. I've never had a mic lead go bad on me, and I used to own over 20 condensers with over 150 metres of cable. Whereas a woman that I work with buys the cheapest that she can find and they're always going wrong. The middle way grasshopper..

A couple of books about mic positioning could be handy as well, in particular articles about Early Reflections (E/R) and the effect of "Boundaries". All other things being equal, understanding the effect that the room can have on a recording and being able to predict an outcome, is the best way to maximise your investment.

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« Reply #21 on: Sep 21, 2017, 04:25AM »

Alrighty then, we've got cables knocked down cold!   Good!

I think we all have our fav mics. Mine is an EV RE20. But an SM57 or SM58 should be fine as well, unless you are old-school and prefer a vintage ribbon.

Now, what do we use to capture the wave? I'm using the best Dell desktop I could get at the time I bought it - about three years ago.

...Geezer
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« Reply #22 on: Sep 21, 2017, 05:12AM »


I think we all have our fav mics. Mine is an EV RE20. But an SM57 or SM58 should be fine as well, unless you are old-school and prefer a vintage ribbon.

...Geezer

I'd go for a Rode M3, because it has filtering options that make it far more flexible than the SM options.

Heavy duty metal body

Internal capsule shock mount

High level of RF rejection

On-mic selectable high pass filter @ 80Hz-12dB/Oct (-10 and -20dB PAD)

Heat-treated high-strength mesh head

Battery status indicator

9V Battery Power, 24 or 48V Phantom Power

Includes wind shield, mic clip and zip pouch

10 year extended warranty when you register your microphone

You could buy one, and another one later to make a versatile stereo pair.

Also the big presence peak that most stage mics have is smoothed down to 2 smaller ones.

I've got a couple of guest nights come up soon so I will be getting one; incidentally I do own an use a SM 58, but I don't care for it much...
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« Reply #23 on: Sep 21, 2017, 05:20AM »

I'd go for a Rode M3, because it has filtering options that make it far more flexible than the SM options.

Heavy duty metal body

Internal capsule shock mount

High level of RF rejection

On-mic selectable high pass filter @ 80Hz-12dB/Oct (-10 and -20dB PAD)

Heat-treated high-strength mesh head

Battery status indicator

9V Battery Power, 24 or 48V Phantom Power

Includes wind shield, mic clip and zip pouch

10 year extended warranty when you register your microphone

You could buy one, and another one later to make a versatile stereo pair.

Also the big presence peak that most stage mics have is smoothed down to 2 smaller ones.

I've got a couple of guest nights come up soon so I will be getting one; incidentally I do own an use a SM 58, but I don't care for it much...


I wouldn't use the high pass filter. I don't like to use any filters, except a little reverb. Number 1 rule of home recording is to keep it simple.

I have seen posts on this Forum raving about the SM57 and I challenged them b/c I didn't want to see the argument, "Well, they MUST be good mics b/c everybody is using them". I had one 3 years ago and didn't like it. In retrospect, I think it was me, however. I bought another one a month ago and it works nicely. I kinda like it with my EV RE20 for a stereo track. Using two different mics is like getting a second opinion. Lol

There appears to be something about recording in stereo. It seems to connect better with the stereo backing track when I mix them down and gives my solo more presence.

...Geezer
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« Reply #24 on: Sep 21, 2017, 08:28AM »

the most important thing for you is going to be room treatment.

Quoting this for it's importance.
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harrison.t.reed
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« Reply #25 on: Sep 21, 2017, 11:19AM »

I think you're right. And the importance seems to be:

Bass traps in the places where walls and floors meet

wall accoustic panels

wall accoustic deflectors
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« Reply #26 on: Sep 21, 2017, 11:41AM »

Another physical factor is parallel walls which most rooms in houses have. Most rooms in homes have rectangle shaped rooms. I'm assuming that most of use spare bedrooms for our home studio.

You could alter at least two walls with partitions or something to offset the facing walls that are parallel. Hopefully finding a solution without too much expense. If you are going to put accoustic panels on a wall, build a temporary 2x4 frame, to install the accoustic panels, to offset it from the parallel position. Do this to two walls, and you will do away with the parallels.
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« Reply #27 on: Sep 21, 2017, 11:52AM »

I have seen posts on this Forum raving about the SM57 and I challenged them b/c I didn't want to see the argument, "Well, they MUST be good mics b/c everybody is using them".

The SM57 is a workhorse stage mic but there are many better options for studio recording. Powering a horn section through the monitors and mains is a much different task than accurately recording for playback.

Virtually any large diaphragm dynamic mic would provide better trombone results in the studio. There are a lot of old radio designs being resurrected as podcasting and voice-over mics that also work great for general use in the studio, on vocals, horns, kicks, room. Shure SM7, your EV RE20, variants of these, others. Just steer clear of kick-drum specific mics in this space, they have a huge scoop in the middle right where we would probably want a little boost.

 Idea!
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« Reply #28 on: Sep 21, 2017, 01:17PM »

If you are going to put accoustic panels on a wall, build a temporary 2x4 frame, to install the accoustic panels, to offset it from the parallel position. Do this to two walls, and you will do away with the parallels.
This is good.

Acoustic traps in the corners where the walls and ceiling meet will have the most noticeable effect on getting the room to sound better.

After that, I'd recommend you build a couple 1 1/2" Furniture Grade PVC A-frames using five sections of tubing, a 3 way elbow at each top corner with one extra 45 on each side at the top to close up the angle.
Throw the heaviest moving blankets you can find over these. You can place them in the corners of the room.

If you have a flat finished ceiling, your next step should be some acoustic wedge foam up there, preferably 3" in thickness. You don't have to cover the whole ceiling, but you do want to make sure you cover the center of your room, and the area that the first reflections between your bell and the mic are going to occur.

If you need a more transportable solution, take two taller PVC frames on either side of where the mic is and span between them with a blanket over the mic.

The benefit of doing it this way is that it can be setup and torn down quite easily, and moving blankets and PVC have plenty more uses in the future. It's great if you don't want to touch the walls or ceiling if you're renting.

As for mics, I've really been digging the black Rode NT-1 on just about everything lately. For trombone, the Apex 205 ribbon mic has gotten good praise for a budget mic that can be upgraded in the future. http://recordinghacks.com/microphones/Apex-Electronics/205 I don't think any of the dynamic mics have done a solo trombone sound justice. Fine for horn parts in a mix though.
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« Reply #29 on: Sep 21, 2017, 03:00PM »

Would love a pair of Neumann U89's
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« Reply #30 on: Sep 21, 2017, 03:32PM »


I wouldn't use the high pass filter. I don't like to use any filters, except a little reverb. Number 1 rule of home recording is to keep it simple.

...Geezer

For the sake of argument and from the Rode Manual,

A characteristic of most dynamic vocal microphones is that their ‘full frequency response’ is only evident when they are used very close to the sound source (within the proximity effect area). The low frequency of the M3 extends to below 20Hz which is an attractive quality for most recording situations.
For live performance however, you may wish to reduce these frequencies when using the M3 as a vocal microphone. If you have an external high pass  lter/bass roll-off, switch it in.
Alternatively, try moving the microphone away from the sound source (out of the proximity effect) or adjust the on-mic  lter switch.
This basic microphone control/technique should be practiced, to ensure that the best possible results are achieved.
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« Reply #31 on: Sep 21, 2017, 09:10PM »

I'll try to post some of my audition recordings on here soon. Anyone got some good recordings to demonstrate their techniques?
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« Reply #32 on: Sep 22, 2017, 07:48AM »

I've seen systems costing thousands of dollars put out of commission by a cheap cable.

Always buy quality cables. Money well spent.

Jerry Walker
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« Reply #33 on: Sep 22, 2017, 05:18PM »

I'll try to post some of my audition recordings on here soon. Anyone got some good recordings to demonstrate their techniques?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sYaaeS8dJV0&feature=youtu.be

This is a short video showing my setup, accompanied with an audio recording, made with the equipment shown in the video.

Of course, I will never be tackling the more complex projects that you've indicated you're interested in, but you can at least hear the Heil PR 40 mic, which was about 6 inches in front of the bell.

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« Reply #34 on: Sep 22, 2017, 07:22PM »

Cool! The condenser mic is supposed to aim out like that? Mine needs to be placed upright so the diaphragm faces outwards.



sounds nice man!
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88HTCL - Griego 1C
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« Reply #35 on: Sep 22, 2017, 08:17PM »

The Heil PR40 that he's using is a dynamic, not a condenser, and it's end address. Can be quite hard to keep track of if you're dealing with mics you don't know that well...
https://heilsound.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/Heil_PR_40_microphone-IB.pdf

Sounded great. I'll put up a clip next week sometime, will be busy this weekend,
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« Reply #36 on: Sep 23, 2017, 04:08AM »

Nice Dusty! Great sound and I applaud your choice of tunes. Nice little music studio.

So what are you using for a DAW and what is your wave editor?

How did you cobble up your background track?

How did you do your recording; karaoke style or did you use a head set?

Terrific job!!!!!!!

...Geezer
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« Reply #37 on: Sep 23, 2017, 05:39AM »

Nice Dusty! Great sound and I applaud your choice of tunes. Nice little music studio.

So what are you using for a DAW and what is your wave editor?

How did you cobble up your background track?

How did you do your recording; karaoke style or did you use a head set?

Terrific job!!!!!!!

...Geezer

Thank you! I love songs from the old american song book.

The software is band-in-a-box plus the realband module that comes with it. I didn't use any additional wave software, that's why you hear the countdown, etc. What you hear is just the raw mix output from the realband module.

I use apple earbuds, and put just one in my right ear, leaving the left ear open. The sound of the trax comes out of the computer small speakers and the ear buds.

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« Reply #38 on: Sep 23, 2017, 06:30AM »

Thank you! I love songs from the old american song book.

The software is band-in-a-box plus the realband module that comes with it. I didn't use any additional wave software, that's why you hear the countdown, etc. What you hear is just the raw mix output from the realband module.

I use apple earbuds, and put just one in my right ear, leaving the left ear open. The sound of the trax comes out of the computer small speakers and the ear buds.


Very cool! Bravo!

You might try opening up Audacity (if you have it) and setting it to record anything that goes through your sound card. Then hit "record", launch your BiaB selection and let Audacity record it. You will get an outstanding wave that is exactly what you hear BiaB playing. You can then edit out the beginning clicks if you want and adjust the gain, etc. Save it as a wave file and then play that through your earbuds, etc and lay down your solo track underneath it. Save that as an Audacity project and you can go back in to adjust gains on tracks or even phrases for balance, add some reverb, etc before saving it again and mixing it down to a wave file.

By using Audacity to record what BiaB plays, you get a truer sound from the midi files. I have found that sometimes when I use BiaB to save it's selection to a wave file, the midi gets distorted. But if you are recording in RealBand while playing BiaB, you are essentially getting exactly what you hear BiaB producing. And if it lets you keep your solo track separate from the backing track, then you ought to be able to go in and do some editing. But if it mixes it down to a combined stereo wave while you are recording, then you can't, so much.

You are getting great results, but if you follow my procedure outlined above, or one similar, you might find you have a lot more editing tools at your disposal post recording session. Otherwise, I wouldn't change a thing. You have it down cold for home use.

...Geezer
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« Reply #39 on: Sep 23, 2017, 07:04AM »

Geezer, you said:
"I have found that sometimes when I use BiaB to save it's selection to a wave file, the midi gets distorted."

I don't understand that. When I save the trax from BIAB to a wave file, it sounds good to me. How does midi get distorted?

Another thought, I haven't done this, but I bet Graham has and is an expert on this, and that is to open up Realband, open up a BIAB song, and then you should be able to be able to record your audio (trombone), then have complete mixing control over all the audio trax and BIAB instrument trax. Then create your final wav file.
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