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Author Topic: Finally got held of a Elkhart 62H  (Read 1327 times)
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watermailonman

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« on: Sep 24, 2017, 04:04PM »

Hi!

I have been looking out for a Conn 62H for some time. Several good looking ones have passed on Ebay from sellers who did not allow me to bid in the auctions. Strange because some of those horns went really cheap. Guys like "QuinnTheEskimoe" nailed one of them and put it out the next day at a more suitable price (Arrrgh!").

What worries me is Americans seem to have become more protective at Ebay lately, because they only sell within U.S. A guy like me could have payed more to get one of those Elkhearts Elkharts but was not allowed. Before I often asked and they let me in. I won a lot of auctions like that. Now they respond. "Sorry I only sell within U.S"

I think this will be the last buy for me for long time.

Ebay has changed a lot these last few years. I bought my first horn 2013 and back then most auctions started at $5. Most were open for the whole world. Most I won ended below $500. Now days they start at $500 even the instrument is not very interesting and look like junk. Most instruments I have bought 2013-2014 are now very rare on Ebay, instead there are a bunch of instruments from India and China, a lot of strange brands in new condition (probably China). Now days it is long between the RARE items and when they appear they are mostly "buy it now-horns", items in high price range. This was the case with this 62H :-0 ...

Well now finally I will have one of the beloved Conn 62H Elkharts!  Good! Hope it plays well  :/

I guess the one who buy an ebay-horn is always the biggest looser at THAT time. The risk is high I am one of those. I was the one in the WHOLE wide world who wanted this instrument the most. Thousands saw it and thought it was too expensive. All but me turned away from it. Well it is an Elkhart anyway so I guess sometime in the future I will be able to get some of that money back. In the meantime I will have fun!

/Tom


« Last Edit: Sep 25, 2017, 08:36AM by watermailonman » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: Sep 24, 2017, 04:07PM »

I hope II says Elkhart and not Elkheart on the bell.
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watermailonman

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« Reply #2 on: Sep 24, 2017, 04:09PM »

I hope II says Elkhart and not Elkheart on the bell.


A lot of Typos. It is an Elkhart  ;-) I guess it has nothing to do with an elks heart Yeah, RIGHT.

/Tom
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« Reply #3 on: Sep 24, 2017, 04:28PM »

Tom,
International shipping is a hassle and expensive. If you're not careful you can get burned. Then if a buyer disputes the condition when it arrives, it can be a mess. I've sold internationally on the forum, but not on ebay.
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« Reply #4 on: Sep 24, 2017, 04:39PM »

Tom,
International shipping is a hassle and expensive. If you're not careful you can get burned. Then if a buyer disputes the condition when it arrives, it can be a mess. I've sold internationally on the forum, but not on ebay.

Yes, I can understand it could be problems with picky buyers. Personally I have never bothered to return anything even when damaged. I have mended all things myself. Loose mouthpieces and badly packed instruments have been a problem in some rare cases. It made me buy tools for $1500 (also on ebay) just to be able to mend the broken instruments. I understand it is not the sellers fault entirely. The airports seem to be full of angry people who hate fragile marked boxes. Anyway there is not a big problem to mend those things with the right tools. After I learned the hard way I now ALWAYS tell the seller how to pack the instruments, just to be sure, and after that it has never been a problem. Only twice instruments were not as described (when put in the box). In one case the inner tube had a dent which could not have happened in the shipping. In that case I got some money back from the seller, and in the other case I just forgot about it. The horn was junk but described as good and fully working with good slide. I was fooled but it was a very cheap instrument, so I did not bother. You win some and you loose some as both being a seller and a buyer. Yes, it is probably difficult to find the right buyer, like me, at an anonymous scary place like Ebay. It takes some guts from a seller to send a valuable instrument across the ocean too. Best you can do is to pack safely, and it will arrive as described. If the buyer does not know anything about old trombones they should not buy old trombones that's for sure. Collectors on the other hand knows things!

/Tom
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« Reply #5 on: Sep 24, 2017, 04:58PM »

There's also an international option where eBay takes care of the shipment and whatnot. Problem with it is that it takes months to get the item. Every time I've shipped that way I've had the buyer threaten to mark the item as not delivered because my shiping label tells them it was "delivered"... to the eBay location that I shipped it to.  Can't win!!
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« Reply #6 on: Sep 24, 2017, 05:12PM »

There's also an international option where eBay takes care of the shipment and whatnot. Problem with it is that it takes months to get the item. Every time I've shipped that way I've had the buyer threaten to mark the item as not delivered because my shiping label tells them it was "delivered"... to the eBay location that I shipped it to.  Can't win!!

It takes several weeks to get a trombone from U.S, but from Europe it only takes about ONE week. As a buyer and a seller you need to understand this.

Only once I had to "mark the item as not delivered". I did that the absolutely last possible day. Buyers HAVE to do that if they don't get the item within a certain time. I don't remember now but I think it was about six weeks. Before this the seller texted me several times and asked why I did not pay. I described that I had payed for the trombone but the money was held by Paypal until the time the trombone was delivered. Tracking showed it had arrived to the sellers hub, but after that nothing. When I marked the item as not delivered, the seller contacted his post office and asked them of the location of his trombone. Ebay could not give an answer. Tracking said it had arrived to the first hub but after that it was gone. The seller immediately clamed to get his money, the same amount that I had bid, and he got it. At the same time my money held by Paypal was refunded to me. I asked the seller what whould happen if the trombone suddenly appeared at my doorstep. He happened to have asked that question to Ebay already, and they had answered "Then somebody will get a nice Christmas-present". Two weeks later the trombone began to move. I could see in the tracking that it got to the airport. Was loaded on a plane, and arrived in Europe, and a week later, a couple of days before Christmas it was delivered at my doorstep. I got that horn for free. The delivery guy did not want the money because it was already paid for?  Don't know It turned out well for everybody except Ebay, but it made me sure of that things do work even if it does not work, as to say. I do trust the Ebay/paypal-system!

/Tom
« Last Edit: Sep 25, 2017, 12:37AM by watermailonman » Logged

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« Reply #7 on: Oct 12, 2017, 12:26PM »

Hmm...

Ouch...  >:(

This Elkhart is not as resonant as I had expected. I have a Abeline Conn 73h that plays more open than this one.  It is not what I hoped for. A bit disappointed.

Actually there are two problems with this horn. The first is the resonance and the second is the space between the slide and the bell. It is not more than 5 mm. I hit the bell with the tips of my fingers if I do not grasp the trombone correctly. This means I have to use another grip than I'm used to. Not something I like at all.

I investigated this and found the trombone has been badly mended so I have now taken it to a tech. The female receiver is not aligned correctly which has made the slide angle wrong. I do suspect this is also causing some stress in the bell section. The tech promised he will align the receiver and remove any stress found. Not too expensive if it works. After this we will see if this is a Elkhart-lemon or not.   

Patience until Wednesday.. patience, patience, patience....

/Tom
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« Reply #8 on: Oct 12, 2017, 12:41PM »

Is the horn dent free?

Honestly just sounds like a combination of bad repairs and put together badly. If the parts are in good shape you should still have a good horn Good!
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« Reply #9 on: Oct 12, 2017, 12:45PM »

Hmm...
Actually there are two problems with this horn. The first is the resonance and the second is the space between the slide and the bell. It is not more than 5 mm. I hit the bell with the tips of my fingers if I do not grasp the trombone correctly. This means I have to use another grip than I'm used to. Not something I like at all.

/Tom

They might be the same problem. Check under the bell, in front of the main bell brace, in front of the diamond. Often you will find what looks like a dent there, but is actually where the bell has buckled, most likely from sitting on a trombone stand unsupported. I've seen a lot of 88hs with this damage. This would bring the bell close to the slide. Sometimes techs treat that buckle like a dent and just remove it, and you're left with a bent bell that looks ok.
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« Reply #10 on: Oct 12, 2017, 12:47PM »

Is the horn dent free?

Honestly just sounds like a combination of bad repairs and put together badly. If the parts are in good shape you should still have a good horn Good!
This horn has probably been played a lot. It is dent free but shows signs of some repair-work and dent removal. Well, I hope the horn will play more open after the tech has corrected the receiver. Anyhow, it has to be done because I'm too old to change my grip on the horn. The way it is now is not working with my technique, that's for sure.

They might be the same problem. Check under the bell, in front of the main bell brace, in front of the diamond. Often you will find what looks like a dent there, but is actually where the bell has buckled, most likely from sitting on a trombone stand unsupported. I've seen a lot of 88hs with this damage. This would bring the bell close to the slide. Sometimes techs treat that buckle like a dent and just remove it, and you're left with a bent bell that looks ok.

Interesting theory. Maybe so, I will phone the tech.

/Tom
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« Reply #11 on: Oct 13, 2017, 03:01AM »

Congratulations Tom, hope it turn out well. I got a 60h some years ago on eBay. Luckily for me that trombone is fantastic. It doesn't slot much and the partials are some tricky here and there, but it respond so nice and the sound is kind of exactly what I have been dreaming of all the years. Hope the tech will fix your trombone Tom.

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« Reply #12 on: Oct 13, 2017, 05:31AM »

This horn has probably been played a lot. It is dent free but shows signs of some repair-work and dent removal. Well, I hope the horn will play more open after the tech has corrected the receiver. Anyhow, it has to be done because I'm too old to change my grip on the horn. The way it is now is not working with my technique, that's for sure.

Interesting theory. Maybe so, I will phone the tech.

/Tom

In addition to checking near the bell brace and bell, look really carefully at the first valve knuckle near the other end of the bell brace.  Marching bands have a "snap" maneuver: they take the horn from a vertical hold up to horizontal with a snap against the shoulder (I think they are NOT supposed to contact the shoulder, but what are the chances with the mass of a bass valve section?)  The snap often breaks the joint to the slide receiver AND kinks the knuckle.  Of course, if the knuckle is kinked, the valve casing gets deformed.  The "high school" way that valve gets put back into action is to just keep forcing it around until it moves freely again. Of course, at that point it leaks.

A good tech can remove some of the out-of-roundness, straighten the knuckle, and reseal the receiver leak.  But if the horn WAS damaged this way, you'll need to try some thicker oils to avoid leakage around the valve core inside the casing.  I use (with varying degrees of success) a mixture heavy on "Marvel Mystery Oil" with some "lamp oil" to thin it a bit. 

Oh, one more outcome of "high school" use: all that force of the rotor core directly against the shell tends to wear the rotor shaft prematurely.  Good chance the rotor is NOT running on the axle, but directl on the face.  That means that if the extra wear on the outside of the core is .001 inches radially, all the extra wear will end up on ONE side when the rotor is pulled in either direction.  That makes the leak path on the OTHER side of the rotor .002 inches, for example.  In other words, the leak path on one side will be double what it would be if the axle were not worn.

So, more for your tech to check: 1) check for knuckle kinking; 2) check for compression in both valves.

An Elkie like this is worth saving!
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« Reply #13 on: Oct 13, 2017, 07:10AM »

eBay and Paypal both suck. That's all there is to it. Having to pay eBay a fee to sell stuff (when they are not out to protect the seller at all), AND ALSO pay Paypal a fee for the transaction (Paypal and eBay are sister companies, right?) when Paypal is also not out to protect sellers -- it's like being taxed twice for the same transaction, by the same institution, and the institution is already biased towards buyers. Crappy. No wonder everyone left selling on eBay kinda sucks too.
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« Reply #14 on: Oct 13, 2017, 09:11PM »

PayPal was spun off from eBay in the not too distant past and is now a separate company.
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« Reply #15 on: Oct 20, 2017, 01:46PM »

An update on this.

I got the horn back this Wednesday. The tech had to take the valves apart to move and align everything. Now it plays better especially on the valves. The gap slide/bell is now about five centimeters and I can hold the slide as I'm used to.

I compared the 62h to my 73h and it is now more open, especially in the low range. I will play this horn a lot before I decide if I need to do any further changes. This one has the second valve in E. I might look out for a D-slide or let the tech make a new one if not too expensive. Rolls works. I don't need to split the trigger's. 

This horn does not slot as easy as the 73h does but it is probably because they are different specifications, different bell throats and bell-tuning vs. slide-tuning. I'm more pleased with the horn now after the repair.

The tech said the valves were not aligned properly. It had been a sloppy repair work. He had to loose all the tubes in- and out of, and between, both valves to make everything straight.

/Tom
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« Reply #16 on: Oct 21, 2017, 11:50AM »

I owned an Elkhart 62H when I was in the Army and college. Bought it new in 1971 from Fred Ross's Bandland in Clarksburg, WV. He had it in stock for a few years before I bought it.

Sold it to a friend in 1979 who still plays it.

It came with the optional D slide. Loved that horn!!! It was super responsive, and had a pedal F that would rattle the walls!

Rich, dark sound. Very free blowing. I started it with a Bach 1.5G, then switched to a Schilke 59. Great combo!!

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« Reply #17 on: Oct 22, 2017, 12:53AM »

An update on this.

I got the horn back this Wednesday. The tech had to take the valves apart to move and align everything. Now it plays better especially on the valves. The gap slide/bell is now about five centimeters and I can hold the slide as I'm used to.

I compared the 62h to my 73h and it is now more open, especially in the low range. I will play this horn a lot before I decide if I need to do any further changes. This one has the second valve in E. I might look out for a D-slide or let the tech make a new one if not too expensive. Rolls works. I don't need to split the trigger's. 

This horn does not slot as easy as the 73h does but it is probably because they are different specifications, different bell throats and bell-tuning vs. slide-tuning. I'm more pleased with the horn now after the repair.

The tech said the valves were not aligned properly. It had been a sloppy repair work. He had to loose all the tubes in- and out of, and between, both valves to make everything straight.

/Tom

Overall, 62Hs tend to slot better than 73Hs..... so you may .... I stress may.... have a leadpipe issue.  I have never played two 62Hs that were the same.... huge variation in blow.... and sound. Generally, the harder they are to blow, the better they sound.... sad.
Great trombones, but not as easy as most top end horns of today..... but a good one sounds like nothing else.

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« Reply #18 on: Oct 22, 2017, 01:20AM »

Hi,

On my Elkhart 62H the valve wrap is not soldered either to the bell or the J bend and it blows freer than any other I've tried. Might be worth a try if you're still not happy?

BellEnd
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« Reply #19 on: Oct 22, 2017, 02:20AM »

Hi,

On my Elkhart 62H the valve wrap is not soldered either to the bell or the J bend and it blows freer than any other I've tried. Might be worth a try if you're still not happy?

BellEnd

Thank you! Acctually I talked about to remove those strings of solder first time I visted the tech, to open up the horn. I also got the same advice from another respected forum member in a PM. My tech did however advice against to do that. I might do it anyway. I think they don't want to do stuff like that if I'm not insisting and tell I'm taking full responsability for the result. He will not take the risk I tell him to put it back for free if not satisfied.

Right now I'm heading to my first gig with the horn. A show-school with kids in deverse ages has a series of gigs/performances and there is a big band on stage in the background. I'm subbing for the bass trombone player. An easy gig and a chance to see how it blends. It is a good band.

/Tom
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