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Author Topic: Disgraceful NFL  (Read 6407 times)
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Baron von Bone
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« Reply #280 on: Oct 31, 2017, 05:15AM »

Seriously?
Seems this subtopic was resolved a bit back, but if you can put away your ruler I can help you to understand what just happened over the short tangent to the discussion ...
 
You want to delve into semantics of legalese in a code that is not legally binding?
Me? No.
 
That's the nature of legalese.
 
And want to compare transporting a flag to a flag that is being brought out to be a centerpiece during the anthem, and the object to which people should face? Because a flag during transport and a flag used in the anthem are anything alike per what is going on at the time?
 
The semantics are just plain stupid.
Now you're beginning to get a key part of the point, and maybe to start to understand the inherent situation with legalese ...
 
In the case of the NFL, the flag is carried out of to the field as part of the anthem. It is the flag that is honored. And as the symbol of our country, it has the additional symbolism that it should fly freely... as in our "free" country and the "freedoms" it represents and protects.
 
It ain't rocket science.
... or maybe not at all.
 
Legalese isn't rocket science--it makes far less sense. Even lawyers have to hire lawyers for other specialties of law, sometimes specialists within the same larger specialty. If you go into a case of legalese thinking "this isn't rocket science" then someone wanting a dupe to take advantage of wants to talk to you for sure.
 
Nor does holding it fast while saluting and singing to it as part of honoring the country actually respect the symbolism inherent.
 
Ain't legal, just disrespectful. Also is very much picking and choosing.
Sounds like My Team doubling down and digging in to me. You can relax though--we're on the same team on this one.
 
And don't feel bad, most people are unable to manage that very well--it's a perfectly normal human weakness.
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« Reply #281 on: Oct 31, 2017, 05:23AM »

Legalese isn't rocket science--it makes far less sense. Even lawyers have to hire lawyers for other specialties of law, sometimes specialists within the same larger specialty. If you go into a case of legalese thinking "this isn't rocket science" then someone wanting a dupe to take advantage of wants to talk to you for sure.
Again Byron, the flag code is a nonbinding set of advisory rules for display and care of the national flag. No lawyers. No legalese.

Just your overly semantic self trying to argue a point you know is already lost.
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Baron von Bone
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« Reply #282 on: Oct 31, 2017, 07:31AM »

Again Byron, the flag code is a nonbinding set of advisory rules for display and care of the national flag. No lawyers. No legalese.

So are those last two comments denying or acknowledging the fact that legalese is not exclusively limited to legal documentation?
 
Never mind though. I don't really care. Because it's really about that ridiculous ruler you can't keep in your ... pocket, and sorry, but that doesn't interest me at all.
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Baron von Bone
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« Reply #283 on: Oct 31, 2017, 07:47AM »

Back to the real issue ...
Yes!
 
A point that became my main one in that little tangent.
 
 
 
Keeping in mind the flag code is a guideline and not law (except for flying it with the field of stars down, which is a signal of distress, and has been treated in courts in the past as akin to a false 911 call). I think in the case of the flag for me it boils down to intent.  If you treat the flag with honor and respect you are not deliberately disrespecting it or our nation (although you may be violating the guidelines for proper display and handling of the flag).  If you've ever been to a military funeral the flag is held up over the casket and walked away from the casket and folded, if you wanted to get all legalistic about the flag code it would have been violated when they carried the flag away from the casket.  Back to the real issue I've actually always been on the fence regarding the take a knee protest of the NFL, I personally have always supported the cause, and I didn't particularly care for them doing the protest during the national anthem.  Yes I'm aware of all of the ways people disregard the flag code on a daily basis, and most of it is done out of ignorance of the flag code and apathy and not a desire to disrespect the country.  Some people see the take a knee as a deliberate act of disrespect for the flag, they don't get the nuance of they aren't disrespecting the flag but are just trying to get their message across, even though they may agree with the message they can still find fault with the method of delivery.  After giving it some consideration, and quite a bit from reading people's views on here I've come to the conclusion that the intent of those participating in the take a knee protest isn't about disrespecting the flag or the country, but a way to get their message out that some people in this country are still being treated differently because of their race by the police and others.  Although I've come to understand that the take a knee protest isn't about disrespect, there are many others out there (including many veterans) who don't see it that way.  The flag is a powerful symbol of our country, and you have to expect that some people aren't going to get the nuance of the protest not being about the flag.  Just because someone doesn't get the nuance of the protest, and feels strongly about the flag being disrespected doesn't necessarily make them bad people, or racist, etc.  Yes the take a knee protest seems to be effective, in that it is getting people talking about the protest.  You can say that these people that don't get it are closed minded, and to some extent I agree that they have missed the message because of the means of delivery and that can be defined as closed minded.  I can also say from what I've observed on this thread that there are many on the side of the protest who are just as closed minded when it comes to understanding the views of those who find the form of the protest offensive.
I couldn't agree more.
 
I do suspect you're being very kind to a large number of those who forcefully (dogmatically) "defend the flag" (or presume they are) by counter-protesting or just expressing their beef with the protests/protestors and couching it in the framework of the last refuge of the scoundrel. But it's also very important to keep the strongest points of The Enemy in mind when considering such issue--anything reasonable we can do to suppress our natural dig in and double down and fling poo at the Enemy inclinations, we need to do. A fundamental principle of logic is to withhold judgment until you have no reasonable choice. This goes all the more for these kinds of social situations. We need to give people at least as much leeway as we give purely logical/critical conclusions outside of our own inclinations (assuming of course we're decent critical thinkers with a functional degree of intellectual humility).
 
The mentality the demonstrates these principles in practice is always striking to me, and I appreciate it tremendously.
 
Glad to have you around, Man!
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« Reply #284 on: Oct 31, 2017, 07:47AM »

Why has there been no outrage over this disrespect for the flag?

This is a clear violation of 4 U.S. Code 8 - Respect for flag

If the flag is so sacred to the military why are they doing this?



https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10214043073169373&set=p.10214043073169373&type=3&theater
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Baron von Bone
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« Reply #285 on: Oct 31, 2017, 08:01AM »


Wow ... damn.
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- Feeding a troll just gives it a platform and amplifies its voice.
 
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« Reply #286 on: Oct 31, 2017, 09:24AM »

Being a marching band guy, been a part of many of these "Big A** Flag" roll outs, that is quite unusual.  Normally, there is one guy who's job it is to make sure that all the folks holding the BAF know what they are doing and know not to let it hit the ground.  He usually acts like a drill sergeant if there are any non military folks in on the job as well.

Truly surprising to see that, I'm curious if it is a real image.

Cheers,
Andy
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Andrew Elms
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« Reply #287 on: Oct 31, 2017, 10:34AM »


Wow ... damn.
What he said!!!  If I had been there to see this, I would have been upset that this was allowed to happen.  This is an extreme example of ignorance, or just total disregard for decorum regarding the flag.  I've been involved on active duty in the Navy, and as an Army Reserve Bandsman, as well as belonging to both the VFW and American Legion in many ceremonies involving the flag, and I've seen and ignored many minor violations of Flag etiquette, but this one would be impossible for me to observe, and not bring it to the attention of someone that it was not acceptable to place a flag on the ground on the sidelines at an event such as this.  I've in my life never seen a flag deliberately placed on the ground (accidents do happen), other than as part of a protest.  With the appropriate number of people it is possible to fold a flag of this size without it hitting the ground.  It does require coordination to pull off and some forethought, there is no reason for this to have taken place.     
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