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Author Topic: Las Vegas shooting  (Read 4448 times)
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Graham Martin
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« on: Oct 02, 2017, 03:26PM »

Our thoughts are with all Americans, but particularly those directly affected by the mass shooting in Las Vegas carried out by 64-year-old Stephen Paddock from a 32nd-floor window of the Mandalay Bay hotel.

The figures we are hearing is 59 killed and over 500 injured.

The motives of the killer are unclear at this stage but discovery of many firearms and explosives at one of his homes suggests that it may be more than the actions of a psychopath.
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Grah

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« Reply #1 on: Oct 02, 2017, 03:37PM »

He even had his family fooled.  They were as shocked as the rest of us.

Good thing he wasn't Middle Eastern or we'd have to move this to Purely Politics (based on some other rants in the past).

From the sounds I've heard this must have been some hum-dinger of a volley of bullets!  How did he even do that with only two arms to hold two guns?  And how many did he have since firing that many rounds would really heat up a gun barrel.

I'm sure our crack FBI team will get as much to the bottom of this as possible given the shooter is dead and we can't interrogate him.
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Bruce Guttman
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Graham Martin
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« Reply #2 on: Oct 02, 2017, 03:43PM »

His partner is Australian and looks to be of Asian ancestry. Last I heard was that she had been released by the authorities and so there was probably no motivation for the killings from her.

However, I did wonder if I should put the topic in Politics.
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Grah

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« Reply #3 on: Oct 02, 2017, 03:51PM »

I was up all night working on a project and watched the scope of the reports keep getting bigger and bigger.

A shooting.
Several dead.
20 dead. 100 wounded
40 dead.
50+ dead.

One commentary noted that most battles in the American Revolution did not have so many dead.

And yet the momentum is to make this sort of thing easier to pull off. They will vote to legalize silencers before the end of the year.

I realize silencers are not like in the movies but imagine how many people he could have killed in a large crowd like that before people noticed what was happening if the sound were not so obvious, if it were something that might not get noticed during a loud outdoor concert.



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Robert Holmén

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« Reply #4 on: Oct 02, 2017, 04:13PM »

From the audio, it sounded like it was an AR-15 or other 5.56 NATO fully automatic weapon, or that he simulated full-auto with some kind of Bumpsky stock or a rolled up pair of socks. Might have been an FN Minimi (M249) but I'd be really surprised, not that he had one, but that it took so long to reload.

It also sounded like he was using some kind of 100 round (or more) drum. The reload time, or just the pause he took, after shooting what sounded like 50-100 bullets in one burst was probably so long because he didn't want to melt his barrel.

Truly sick and horrifying act of hate/insanity/evil. I was shaking on my way in to work listening to it.

I suspect that the NFA rules regarding machine guns, bumpsky stocks, and AR-15 pistol "arm stabilizers" (not that he used any or all of these things) will either become completely prohibitive, or even more strict. I'd also not be surprised if it turned out that he milled the weapons himself and that rules regarding producing private weapons and buying 3rd party upper kits also become more strict. As it stands, anyone can buy or 3D print a lower receiver paperweight and then mill it out with a drill press or dremel to create a firearm legally without any kind of serial number. The rest of an AR15 (though mags are restricted in many states) can be bought without any kind of check online and shipped anywhere in the US, including AR-15 uppers with barrels of 10 inches or less.

Complete speculation on my part, but that's what I was wondering about when I was taking in the news.
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« Reply #5 on: Oct 02, 2017, 05:10PM »

http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-las-vegas-shooting-live-updates-cbs-fires-executive-for-deeply-1506969657-htmlstory.html

Facebook:

Hayley Geftman-Gold, who was a vice president and senior legal counsel at CBS in New York, wrote on Facebook that she was “actually not even sympathetic” to the victims of the shooting because “country music fans often are Republican gun toters,” according to Los Angeles Times. She added that she had no hope that Republicans — whom she called “Repugs” — would ever take action and “do the right thing” if they didn’t do anything when children were murdered.
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« Reply #6 on: Oct 02, 2017, 05:10PM »

The Sheriff of the county that Las Vegas is in stated that the calibers of the weapons the shooter had ranged from .308 down to .223. The M16 shoots the .223 load I believe. And he had a handgun also. And Ammonium Nitrate in his car.

And then they found 16 (or 18?) more rifles in his home, in addition to explosives. It is incomprehensible that he was able to fly under the radar long enough to amass such an arsenal, as well as do the advanced planning that he had to do (choosing a large suite on the corner, high enough to provide that deadly vantage point), plus apparently choosing this particular festival as the one mass gathering he would target.

He fired from two vantage points and had tripods set up, essentially creating a killing zone.

Scary and depressing.
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« Reply #7 on: Oct 02, 2017, 05:39PM »

I don't think this took commando-level planning. Live concerts in Las Vegas are common things and hotel rooms are there to be rented. It probably didn't take much for him to find two that coincided and fit his whims.


There will be no real tightening of gun access after this. Even if it is passed in Congress it will be challenged to the the Supreme court, which is now safely in the conservative camp. 2018 is almost here, no conservative will dare stake out even a token gun control agenda.

This shooting doesn't fit the scary immigrant/terrorist narrative so it will fall from the radar just like Sandy Hook.
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Robert Holmén

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« Reply #8 on: Oct 02, 2017, 05:58PM »

A news commentator observed that if the guy's last name was Mohammed, this conversation would be entirely different.

sigh
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« Reply #9 on: Oct 02, 2017, 06:12PM »

The M16 fires both .223 Remington as well as 5.56 NATO, which for all intents and purposes are the nearly the same cartridge shape, although each can be filled with pretty different loads. Most civilian AR-15s can fire both.

According to one article, it appears that he was indeed using a Bumpsky type stock, which works by keeping the rifle in flux along a rail in the stock. You push forward on it with your finger in place over the trigger, and the recoil pushes it back just enough to reset the hammer before your forward pressure on the foregrip causes the trigger to be pulled again. Whereas a fully auto weapon has a reasonably complicated sear that keeps the rate of fire constant, the semi auto can technically fire even faster than this with a bump stock...

Anything further about what any of us thinks about that should probably be in a separate thread in PP. It's a topic unto itself. For what it's worth I think NFA weapons and any device trying to circumvent the NFA should be completely illegal -- nobody needs machine guns, grenades, or bombs unless they want to commit mass murder or are fighting a war. So ideally, not needed in our world.

Aside from metal detectors and mandatory searches (and gun control, which definitely should be discussed in PP, because that's worth talking about), I don't know what could have been done to prevent this tragedy. Law enforcement responded pretty darn quickly, and I am sure the only thing on their minds was saving lives and ending it as soon as possible. They probably stacked up on that room not knowing what was going to happen on the other side. I hope that the 500 people wounded from shrapnel and gunshot wounds are treated and come through OK. That is a crazy statistic. I don't know what the heck is going on in our country.
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« Reply #10 on: Oct 02, 2017, 06:25PM »

Aside from metal detectors and mandatory searches (and gun control, which definitely should be discussed in PP, because that's worth talking about), I don't know what could have been done to prevent this tragedy.

Agreed. There is no predicting someone losing their minds like this guy did.

Law enforcement responded pretty darn quickly...
Indeed! I heard that it took 4 minutes. God only knows how many more people would have been slaughtered if they hadn't been so fast to respond.

I hope that the 500 people wounded from shrapnel and gunshot wounds are treated and come through OK.

Amen
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« Reply #11 on: Oct 02, 2017, 06:36PM »

The M16 fires both .223 Remington as well as 5.56 NATO, which for all intents and purposes are the nearly the same cartridge shape, although each can be filled with pretty different loads. Most civilian AR-15s can fire both.

According to one article, it appears that he was indeed using a Bumpsky type stock, which works by keeping the rifle in flux along a rail in the stock. You push forward on it with your finger in place over the trigger, and the recoil pushes it back just enough to reset the hammer before your forward pressure on the foregrip causes the trigger to be pulled again. Whereas a fully auto weapon has a reasonably complicated sear that keeps the rate of fire constant, the semi auto can technically fire even faster than this with a bump stock...

Anything further about what any of us thinks about that should probably be in a separate thread in PP. It's a topic unto itself. For what it's worth I think NFA weapons and any device trying to circumvent the NFA should be completely illegal -- nobody needs machine guns, grenades, or bombs unless they want to commit mass murder or are fighting a war. So ideally, not needed in our world.

Aside from metal detectors and mandatory searches (and gun control, which definitely should be discussed in PP, because that's worth talking about), I don't know what could have been done to prevent this tragedy. Law enforcement responded pretty darn quickly, and I am sure the only thing on their minds was saving lives and ending it as soon as possible. They probably stacked up on that room not knowing what was going to happen on the other side. I hope that the 500 people wounded from shrapnel and gunshot wounds are treated and come through OK. That is a crazy statistic. I don't know what the heck is going on in our country.

I listened to an audio early this morning and the sound was irregular on shots. My first thought was as you have posted. There are components that can be exchanged to modify to 'Slide Fire' which is probably of which you speak. The consistency of reports  I heard was not as of a full auto ( echo involved here has to be considered too ).
As reported he had more than one weapon, although.
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« Reply #12 on: Oct 02, 2017, 06:51PM »

To me this sound like pretty regular stuff. How is this not automatic?

https://youtu.be/D_KaSefBuX4
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Robert Holmén

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« Reply #13 on: Oct 02, 2017, 07:00PM »

Sounded even less consistent than this, but this guy literally gets paid to review guns every day:

http://youtu.be/29evY77S13M

I dunno if it was the echo in the audio, Rob (I don't want to listen to it any more) but it sounded like two rifles with two rates of fire. Unbelievably scary.
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« Reply #14 on: Oct 02, 2017, 07:05PM »

Sounded even less consistent than this, but this guy literally gets paid to review guns every day:

http://youtu.be/29evY77S13M


So even that does not qualify as "automatic"?  What is automatic then?
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Robert Holmén

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« Reply #15 on: Oct 02, 2017, 07:11PM »

From what I could hear he seemed to be firing two (maybe more) weapons at once.  A "pull trigger" automatic doesn't even fire perfectly uniformly.  I never heard of these things like "Bumpsky stocks" or using rolled up socks to create a simulation of automatic fire.  I guess I have a lot to learn (like many of us).

Note that I have revived an old thread on 2nd Amendment so we can discuss gun control.  It's in Purely Politics.

Who knows?  Maybe the guy was a Classical Music nut and hated Country Music? Evil
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« Reply #16 on: Oct 02, 2017, 07:27PM »

I'll be curious to hear the girlfriend's story.
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Robert Holmén

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« Reply #17 on: Oct 02, 2017, 07:49PM »


So even that does not qualify as "automatic"?  What is automatic then?

fully automatic weapons work two basic ways. They either fire from an open bolt, like an Uzi or anything that you'd recogonize as a belt-fed machine gun, or closed bolt, like an AR15 or AK47.

Open bolt: The bolt is held back by the trigger mechanism, and the spring is compressed, and pulling the trigger releases the bolt forward under the tension of the spring. There is nothing that catches the bolt after the bullet goes off and sends the bolt back other than the trigger, so the recoil will keep pushing the bolt back just enough to grab another bullet, and the firing pin is fixed, so it will set off the round -- no hammer. Open bolt weapons are almost always full auto and also almost always NFA weapons. Rate of fire can be controlled with a valve on the gas tube.

Closed bolt: The bolt is forward and the spring is not compressed. The bullet is already in the chamber. Pulling the trigger releases the hammer onto the firing pin, and the round goes off. The recoil sends the bolt back, resetting the hammer and grabbing another round, before stopping back in the forward positition. Now, what happens next depends on the sear plate. For semi automatics, the hammer is locked and you have to let go of the trigger to reset it. Pulling it again will repeat the process above. A full auto sear will keep allowing the hammer to fall forward when the bolt returns to the chamber. It's actually a pretty complicated piece of metal, and it helps set the rate of fire. When you let go of the trigger, it resets, and the hammer is stopped. There's also a sear for a three round burst, and the military sear usually has the ability to select fire from semi to full auto, as well as safe.

Civilian sears only have semi and safe.

Bumpski stocks just let you pull the semi trigger really fast, artificially. So does a pair of socks in your armpit or a ton of rubber bands around the back of the trigger. Legally it's semi-auto, but in practice, it's even faster than full auto...
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« Reply #18 on: Oct 02, 2017, 07:50PM »

Who knows?  Maybe the guy was a Classical Music nut and hated Country Music? Evil

Yikes
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« Reply #19 on: Oct 02, 2017, 07:59PM »

I figure the layman's definition of automatic would be that if you hold down the trigger it will keep firing bullets until it runs out.

Is that too broad or too narrow?
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Robert Holmén

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