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Author Topic: Las Vegas shooting  (Read 4427 times)
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Graham Martin
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« on: Oct 02, 2017, 03:26PM »

Our thoughts are with all Americans, but particularly those directly affected by the mass shooting in Las Vegas carried out by 64-year-old Stephen Paddock from a 32nd-floor window of the Mandalay Bay hotel.

The figures we are hearing is 59 killed and over 500 injured.

The motives of the killer are unclear at this stage but discovery of many firearms and explosives at one of his homes suggests that it may be more than the actions of a psychopath.
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« Reply #1 on: Oct 02, 2017, 03:37PM »

He even had his family fooled.  They were as shocked as the rest of us.

Good thing he wasn't Middle Eastern or we'd have to move this to Purely Politics (based on some other rants in the past).

From the sounds I've heard this must have been some hum-dinger of a volley of bullets!  How did he even do that with only two arms to hold two guns?  And how many did he have since firing that many rounds would really heat up a gun barrel.

I'm sure our crack FBI team will get as much to the bottom of this as possible given the shooter is dead and we can't interrogate him.
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Graham Martin
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« Reply #2 on: Oct 02, 2017, 03:43PM »

His partner is Australian and looks to be of Asian ancestry. Last I heard was that she had been released by the authorities and so there was probably no motivation for the killings from her.

However, I did wonder if I should put the topic in Politics.
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« Reply #3 on: Oct 02, 2017, 03:51PM »

I was up all night working on a project and watched the scope of the reports keep getting bigger and bigger.

A shooting.
Several dead.
20 dead. 100 wounded
40 dead.
50+ dead.

One commentary noted that most battles in the American Revolution did not have so many dead.

And yet the momentum is to make this sort of thing easier to pull off. They will vote to legalize silencers before the end of the year.

I realize silencers are not like in the movies but imagine how many people he could have killed in a large crowd like that before people noticed what was happening if the sound were not so obvious, if it were something that might not get noticed during a loud outdoor concert.



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« Reply #4 on: Oct 02, 2017, 04:13PM »

From the audio, it sounded like it was an AR-15 or other 5.56 NATO fully automatic weapon, or that he simulated full-auto with some kind of Bumpsky stock or a rolled up pair of socks. Might have been an FN Minimi (M249) but I'd be really surprised, not that he had one, but that it took so long to reload.

It also sounded like he was using some kind of 100 round (or more) drum. The reload time, or just the pause he took, after shooting what sounded like 50-100 bullets in one burst was probably so long because he didn't want to melt his barrel.

Truly sick and horrifying act of hate/insanity/evil. I was shaking on my way in to work listening to it.

I suspect that the NFA rules regarding machine guns, bumpsky stocks, and AR-15 pistol "arm stabilizers" (not that he used any or all of these things) will either become completely prohibitive, or even more strict. I'd also not be surprised if it turned out that he milled the weapons himself and that rules regarding producing private weapons and buying 3rd party upper kits also become more strict. As it stands, anyone can buy or 3D print a lower receiver paperweight and then mill it out with a drill press or dremel to create a firearm legally without any kind of serial number. The rest of an AR15 (though mags are restricted in many states) can be bought without any kind of check online and shipped anywhere in the US, including AR-15 uppers with barrels of 10 inches or less.

Complete speculation on my part, but that's what I was wondering about when I was taking in the news.
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« Reply #5 on: Oct 02, 2017, 05:10PM »

http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-las-vegas-shooting-live-updates-cbs-fires-executive-for-deeply-1506969657-htmlstory.html

Facebook:

Hayley Geftman-Gold, who was a vice president and senior legal counsel at CBS in New York, wrote on Facebook that she was “actually not even sympathetic” to the victims of the shooting because “country music fans often are Republican gun toters,” according to Los Angeles Times. She added that she had no hope that Republicans — whom she called “Repugs” — would ever take action and “do the right thing” if they didn’t do anything when children were murdered.
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« Reply #6 on: Oct 02, 2017, 05:10PM »

The Sheriff of the county that Las Vegas is in stated that the calibers of the weapons the shooter had ranged from .308 down to .223. The M16 shoots the .223 load I believe. And he had a handgun also. And Ammonium Nitrate in his car.

And then they found 16 (or 18?) more rifles in his home, in addition to explosives. It is incomprehensible that he was able to fly under the radar long enough to amass such an arsenal, as well as do the advanced planning that he had to do (choosing a large suite on the corner, high enough to provide that deadly vantage point), plus apparently choosing this particular festival as the one mass gathering he would target.

He fired from two vantage points and had tripods set up, essentially creating a killing zone.

Scary and depressing.
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« Reply #7 on: Oct 02, 2017, 05:39PM »

I don't think this took commando-level planning. Live concerts in Las Vegas are common things and hotel rooms are there to be rented. It probably didn't take much for him to find two that coincided and fit his whims.


There will be no real tightening of gun access after this. Even if it is passed in Congress it will be challenged to the the Supreme court, which is now safely in the conservative camp. 2018 is almost here, no conservative will dare stake out even a token gun control agenda.

This shooting doesn't fit the scary immigrant/terrorist narrative so it will fall from the radar just like Sandy Hook.
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Robert Holmén

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« Reply #8 on: Oct 02, 2017, 05:58PM »

A news commentator observed that if the guy's last name was Mohammed, this conversation would be entirely different.

sigh
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« Reply #9 on: Oct 02, 2017, 06:12PM »

The M16 fires both .223 Remington as well as 5.56 NATO, which for all intents and purposes are the nearly the same cartridge shape, although each can be filled with pretty different loads. Most civilian AR-15s can fire both.

According to one article, it appears that he was indeed using a Bumpsky type stock, which works by keeping the rifle in flux along a rail in the stock. You push forward on it with your finger in place over the trigger, and the recoil pushes it back just enough to reset the hammer before your forward pressure on the foregrip causes the trigger to be pulled again. Whereas a fully auto weapon has a reasonably complicated sear that keeps the rate of fire constant, the semi auto can technically fire even faster than this with a bump stock...

Anything further about what any of us thinks about that should probably be in a separate thread in PP. It's a topic unto itself. For what it's worth I think NFA weapons and any device trying to circumvent the NFA should be completely illegal -- nobody needs machine guns, grenades, or bombs unless they want to commit mass murder or are fighting a war. So ideally, not needed in our world.

Aside from metal detectors and mandatory searches (and gun control, which definitely should be discussed in PP, because that's worth talking about), I don't know what could have been done to prevent this tragedy. Law enforcement responded pretty darn quickly, and I am sure the only thing on their minds was saving lives and ending it as soon as possible. They probably stacked up on that room not knowing what was going to happen on the other side. I hope that the 500 people wounded from shrapnel and gunshot wounds are treated and come through OK. That is a crazy statistic. I don't know what the heck is going on in our country.
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« Reply #10 on: Oct 02, 2017, 06:25PM »

Aside from metal detectors and mandatory searches (and gun control, which definitely should be discussed in PP, because that's worth talking about), I don't know what could have been done to prevent this tragedy.

Agreed. There is no predicting someone losing their minds like this guy did.

Law enforcement responded pretty darn quickly...
Indeed! I heard that it took 4 minutes. God only knows how many more people would have been slaughtered if they hadn't been so fast to respond.

I hope that the 500 people wounded from shrapnel and gunshot wounds are treated and come through OK.

Amen
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« Reply #11 on: Oct 02, 2017, 06:36PM »

The M16 fires both .223 Remington as well as 5.56 NATO, which for all intents and purposes are the nearly the same cartridge shape, although each can be filled with pretty different loads. Most civilian AR-15s can fire both.

According to one article, it appears that he was indeed using a Bumpsky type stock, which works by keeping the rifle in flux along a rail in the stock. You push forward on it with your finger in place over the trigger, and the recoil pushes it back just enough to reset the hammer before your forward pressure on the foregrip causes the trigger to be pulled again. Whereas a fully auto weapon has a reasonably complicated sear that keeps the rate of fire constant, the semi auto can technically fire even faster than this with a bump stock...

Anything further about what any of us thinks about that should probably be in a separate thread in PP. It's a topic unto itself. For what it's worth I think NFA weapons and any device trying to circumvent the NFA should be completely illegal -- nobody needs machine guns, grenades, or bombs unless they want to commit mass murder or are fighting a war. So ideally, not needed in our world.

Aside from metal detectors and mandatory searches (and gun control, which definitely should be discussed in PP, because that's worth talking about), I don't know what could have been done to prevent this tragedy. Law enforcement responded pretty darn quickly, and I am sure the only thing on their minds was saving lives and ending it as soon as possible. They probably stacked up on that room not knowing what was going to happen on the other side. I hope that the 500 people wounded from shrapnel and gunshot wounds are treated and come through OK. That is a crazy statistic. I don't know what the heck is going on in our country.

I listened to an audio early this morning and the sound was irregular on shots. My first thought was as you have posted. There are components that can be exchanged to modify to 'Slide Fire' which is probably of which you speak. The consistency of reports  I heard was not as of a full auto ( echo involved here has to be considered too ).
As reported he had more than one weapon, although.
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« Reply #12 on: Oct 02, 2017, 06:51PM »

To me this sound like pretty regular stuff. How is this not automatic?

https://youtu.be/D_KaSefBuX4
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« Reply #13 on: Oct 02, 2017, 07:00PM »

Sounded even less consistent than this, but this guy literally gets paid to review guns every day:

http://youtu.be/29evY77S13M

I dunno if it was the echo in the audio, Rob (I don't want to listen to it any more) but it sounded like two rifles with two rates of fire. Unbelievably scary.
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« Reply #14 on: Oct 02, 2017, 07:05PM »

Sounded even less consistent than this, but this guy literally gets paid to review guns every day:

http://youtu.be/29evY77S13M


So even that does not qualify as "automatic"?  What is automatic then?
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« Reply #15 on: Oct 02, 2017, 07:11PM »

From what I could hear he seemed to be firing two (maybe more) weapons at once.  A "pull trigger" automatic doesn't even fire perfectly uniformly.  I never heard of these things like "Bumpsky stocks" or using rolled up socks to create a simulation of automatic fire.  I guess I have a lot to learn (like many of us).

Note that I have revived an old thread on 2nd Amendment so we can discuss gun control.  It's in Purely Politics.

Who knows?  Maybe the guy was a Classical Music nut and hated Country Music? Evil
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« Reply #16 on: Oct 02, 2017, 07:27PM »

I'll be curious to hear the girlfriend's story.
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« Reply #17 on: Oct 02, 2017, 07:49PM »


So even that does not qualify as "automatic"?  What is automatic then?

fully automatic weapons work two basic ways. They either fire from an open bolt, like an Uzi or anything that you'd recogonize as a belt-fed machine gun, or closed bolt, like an AR15 or AK47.

Open bolt: The bolt is held back by the trigger mechanism, and the spring is compressed, and pulling the trigger releases the bolt forward under the tension of the spring. There is nothing that catches the bolt after the bullet goes off and sends the bolt back other than the trigger, so the recoil will keep pushing the bolt back just enough to grab another bullet, and the firing pin is fixed, so it will set off the round -- no hammer. Open bolt weapons are almost always full auto and also almost always NFA weapons. Rate of fire can be controlled with a valve on the gas tube.

Closed bolt: The bolt is forward and the spring is not compressed. The bullet is already in the chamber. Pulling the trigger releases the hammer onto the firing pin, and the round goes off. The recoil sends the bolt back, resetting the hammer and grabbing another round, before stopping back in the forward positition. Now, what happens next depends on the sear plate. For semi automatics, the hammer is locked and you have to let go of the trigger to reset it. Pulling it again will repeat the process above. A full auto sear will keep allowing the hammer to fall forward when the bolt returns to the chamber. It's actually a pretty complicated piece of metal, and it helps set the rate of fire. When you let go of the trigger, it resets, and the hammer is stopped. There's also a sear for a three round burst, and the military sear usually has the ability to select fire from semi to full auto, as well as safe.

Civilian sears only have semi and safe.

Bumpski stocks just let you pull the semi trigger really fast, artificially. So does a pair of socks in your armpit or a ton of rubber bands around the back of the trigger. Legally it's semi-auto, but in practice, it's even faster than full auto...
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« Reply #18 on: Oct 02, 2017, 07:50PM »

Who knows?  Maybe the guy was a Classical Music nut and hated Country Music? Evil

Yikes
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« Reply #19 on: Oct 02, 2017, 07:59PM »

I figure the layman's definition of automatic would be that if you hold down the trigger it will keep firing bullets until it runs out.

Is that too broad or too narrow?
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« Reply #20 on: Oct 02, 2017, 07:59PM »

I figure the layman's definition of automatic would be that if you hold down the trigger it will keep firing bullets until it runs out.

Is that too broad or too narrow?

That's it.
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« Reply #21 on: Oct 02, 2017, 08:42PM »

From the audio, it sounded like it was an AR-15 or other 5.56 NATO fully automatic weapon, or that he simulated full-auto with some kind of Bumpsky stock or a rolled up pair of socks. Might have been an FN Minimi (M249) but I'd be really surprised, not that he had one, but that it took so long to reload.
I'd guess a Stoner (or something else with a similar clacky sound to it), but it didn't sound like an M16 to me at all. Of course it's been 30 years since I used one regularly, and probably 15 since I did much at all with an M15/AR15, and a lot of what I got from the few clip I've seen on the news sounded like rounds striking somewhere fairly near the video camera rather than just rounds leaving the barrel.
 
The guy was apparently a multimillionaire (or just fairly rich), so even the cash required to get a full auto rifle plus the FFL/ea wouldn't have been a problem.
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« Reply #22 on: Oct 02, 2017, 09:31PM »

Whilst you Americans discuss what constitutes an automatic weapon, here is a simple short, succinct article/graph which explains why the rest of the world stares at the USA in disbelief.

http://www.theage.com.au/world/heres-why-australia-will-never-understand-the-us-obsession-with-guns-20171003-gyt7ys.html
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« Reply #23 on: Oct 02, 2017, 10:48PM »

Whilst you Americans discuss what constitutes an automatic weapon, here is a simple short, succinct article/graph which explains why the rest of the world stares at the USA in disbelief.

http://www.theage.com.au/world/heres-why-australia-will-never-understand-the-us-obsession-with-guns-20171003-gyt7ys.html


No fair, making it short and succinct!
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« Reply #24 on: Oct 02, 2017, 11:28PM »

Whilst you Americans discuss what constitutes an automatic weapon, here is a simple short, succinct article/graph which explains why the rest of the world stares at the USA in disbelief.

http://www.theage.com.au/world/heres-why-australia-will-never-understand-the-us-obsession-with-guns-20171003-gyt7ys.html

But I can explain the obsession.

It's the Small Penis Problem. The men who need these guns live in constant, gob-smacking fear that they appear unmanly, that someone thinks them unmanly and that they are unmanly.

They worry that they do not measure up to real men in every parameter... penis, income, career, biceps... acquiring the guns is a way to feed the reassuring fantasy of manly identity, the fantasy that they are some sort of rugged, self-sufficient pioneer.

The fear of inadequate manliness is why they voted Trump over Hillary, why they buy pickup trucks over real cars, and why they play fantasy football instead of an instrument.
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« Reply #25 on: Oct 03, 2017, 01:39AM »

But I can explain the obsession.

It's the Small Penis Problem. The men who need these guns live in constant, gob-smacking fear that they appear unmanly, that someone thinks them unmanly and that they are unmanly.

They worry that they do not measure up to real men in every parameter... penis, income, career, biceps... acquiring the guns is a way to feed the reassuring fantasy of manly identity, the fantasy that they are some sort of rugged, self-sufficient pioneer.

The fear of inadequate manliness is why they voted Trump over Hillary, why they buy pickup trucks over real cars, and why they play fantasy football instead of an instrument.
That’s a broad over-generalization.
You do know Hillary voters have guns too.
And so do women. (XX) women.
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« Reply #26 on: Oct 03, 2017, 05:46AM »

Whilst you Americans discuss what constitutes an automatic weapon, here is a simple short, succinct article/graph which explains why the rest of the world stares at the USA in disbelief.

The "rest of the world" and most liberals stare in disbelief because it satisfies them emotionally to pretend weapons and violence are unfathomable to a top tier predator. That's actually a good thing overall for sure, but it's also the other side of The Deplorables' coin regarding self-awareness and denial.
 
What would be nice, and actually productive, would be if we learned to get out of our own way (first we have to learn it's a thing--a ubiquitous thing in fact) and if people would be honest and learn at least a little about what they're more comfortable fearing and pretending as if it's an incomprehensible boogeyman under the bed. It is a good thing to reassure each other that serious violence is off the menu for the large majority of us (and that this kind of violence is for damn near all of us), but this particular method, while perhaps more emotionally appealing when it's pulled off well, is counterproductive. The combination of denial and willful, even guarded ignorance is never the best way to ensure we're better off. Works no better re: violence for rabid anti-gunners than it does re: sexuality for fundamentalists (see regional domestic abuse and teen pregnancy stats for one indication each of how effective these "strategies" are).
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« Reply #27 on: Oct 03, 2017, 05:47AM »

The fear of inadequate manliness is why they voted Trump over Hillary, why they buy pickup trucks over real cars, and why they play fantasy football instead of an instrument.

Heh ... it would certainly be nice if it were that simple!
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« Reply #28 on: Oct 03, 2017, 07:23AM »

That’s a broad over-generalization.

Broad and general but I'm not convinced it is overly so.
 
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You do know Hillary voters have guns too.
And so do women. (XX) women.

If I told you that some trombones are not Bb trombones would that mean that Bb trombones are rare or imaginary?

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« Reply #29 on: Oct 03, 2017, 07:33AM »


Heh ... it would certainly be nice if it were that simple!

For many it is that simple. That is why you can sell them a pickup truck just by showing one spinning up a cloud of wild west dust while Wilford Brimley tells them it's "Ram Tough."
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« Reply #30 on: Oct 03, 2017, 08:30AM »

A brief description of Paddock:

"a wealthy retiree without strong political or religious convictions or a particular zeal for guns who lived in a quiet Nevada suburb with his girlfriend and made frequent trips to the Las Vegas Strip to play video poker and slots"

For a guy with no particular zeal for guns, he seems to have had quite a few, but otherwise a pretty ordinary man. An accountant, a couple of ex-wives. No word on penis size Rob.

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« Reply #31 on: Oct 03, 2017, 08:40AM »

Motivation? A real head scratcher. The authorities were saying that they hope that he left a note explaining why.

Does he hate crowds? Does he hate C&W music?
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« Reply #32 on: Oct 03, 2017, 09:18AM »

There may not have been any real political, religious, or other reason for this nutjobs shooting up a crowd of innocent people.  Who can guess the motivation of someone sick enough to do something like this?  I'm a former hunter (I just haven't had the time or inclination to go anymore), and I enjoy plinking cans and doing a little target shooting.  I also keep a shotgun handy to defend my home.  All of these activities can be done with weapons with a smaller sized clip, or magazine.  We have to start somewhere with making this kind of mass shooting less lethal. I don't want to take guns away from people (unless they have a known mental defect, or a record as a violent offender), but maybe we could as a nation start will limiting the number of shots that a shooter can get off without reloading, or switching weapons.  At least it would slow down the shooter a little, and give someone an opportunity to act.  I've heard all of the slippery slope arguments that the gun lobbyists keep bringing up, and I'm really not worried that if they limit magazine and clip sizes that the next step is they are going to knock on my door and ask me to give them my shot gun, or my 22 semi-auto, etc.  I realize there are already a lot of these out there, but we have to start somewhere, lets stop producing and selling more.  The only real reason for having a 20 round clip on a gun is to kill a lot of people without reloading, so lets start there.       
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« Reply #33 on: Oct 03, 2017, 09:23AM »

It's hard to rationalize what seems to be a senseless act of madness with what seems to be a degree of planning and premeditation.

 
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« Reply #34 on: Oct 03, 2017, 09:38AM »

For many it is that simple. That is why you can sell them a pickup truck just by showing one spinning up a cloud of wild west dust while Wilford Brimley tells them it's "Ram Tough."

The thing is ... it's when we start thinking we're not so simple as all those other people we disagree with that we set ourselves up for that sort of thing. It's more a matter of what we're trained/socialized to find shiny than a degree of self-possession that makes us immune or even just more resistant to being easily distracted with shiny things.
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« Reply #35 on: Oct 03, 2017, 09:46AM »

A brief description of Paddock:
 
"a wealthy retiree without strong political or religious convictions or a particular zeal for guns who lived in a quiet Nevada suburb with his girlfriend and made frequent trips to the Las Vegas Strip to play video poker and slots"
 
For a guy with no particular zeal for guns, he seems to have had quite a few, but otherwise a pretty ordinary man. An accountant, a couple of ex-wives. No word on penis size Rob.

If it's true that he wasn't all that into them, I guess he saw them just as the tactical tools they are and got no jollies from just having them and all that. It could also be he was really into them, just kept it to himself, but that would be pretty unusual as well.
 
His father was apparently on the FBI's most wanted list for a while when he and his bro were very young--called a psycho bank robber or some such. I gather that meant he produced some human casualties. In any case a number of mental issues are hereditary. That might go a good way toward explaining W.T.F. happened with him.
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« Reply #36 on: Oct 03, 2017, 10:41AM »


If it's true that he wasn't all that into them, I guess he saw them just as the tactical tools they are and got no jollies from just having them and all that. It could also be he was really into them, just kept it to himself, but that would be pretty unusual as well.
 
His father was apparently on the FBI's most wanted list for a while when he and his bro were very young--called a psycho bank robber or some such. I gather that meant he produced some human casualties. In any case a number of mental issues are hereditary. That might go a good way toward explaining W.T.F. happened with him.

50 years ago, though. And, from all accounts, a pretty ordinary guy (the shooter that is) since then. Double life?
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« Reply #37 on: Oct 03, 2017, 10:43AM »

Any chance he played football?  Any history of concussions?

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« Reply #38 on: Oct 03, 2017, 10:53AM »

Have to wonder how much the motivation really matters... I mean, it might help explain "why?!" to people, but prior to an attack there are all types of motivations to do one. The real kicker, practically, is once someone decides to commit such an attack.... how much damage can a single person really pull off? Guns have played a major role. Just compare to some of the attacks in Europe, such as the French train stabbing that killed two people, or the people driving their vehicles into people and then getting out and stabbing in the UK. In contrast, getting a semi-automatic that takes a large number of rounds and going off is much easier and much greater potential of damage.

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« Reply #39 on: Oct 03, 2017, 11:12AM »

For a guy with no particular zeal for guns, he seems to have had quite a few, but otherwise a pretty ordinary man. An accountant, a couple of ex-wives. No word on penis size Rob.
That's a Canadian perspective if I ever heard one.  Since you are Canadian there is a nearly 80% chance you do not own a gun.

I know a fella from Texas, one of the nicest guy's I know, that had a 600 sq. ft. room in his basement that was entirely finished in guns.  Nearly every square inch of the walls had guns on them.  A total of over 1000 rifles and hand guns.  That's what is called a particular zeal for guns in the US.  Not 20 or 30.  That's not even a hobby, just a passing interest.
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« Reply #40 on: Oct 03, 2017, 11:21AM »

That's what is called a particular zeal for guns in the US.  Not 20 or 30.  That's not even a hobby, just a passing interest.

Speaking as an American, one who grew up in a gun-happy state, most people I know would consider having 20 to 30 guns particularly zealous.
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« Reply #41 on: Oct 03, 2017, 11:24AM »

Have any of the firearm owners here ever used or personally witnessed a "silencer" being used?
 
Would a silencer on the sort of rifles used in this attack make it quiet enough that people in a loud concert venue would never hear the shooting?
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« Reply #42 on: Oct 03, 2017, 11:27AM »

Speaking as an American, one who grew up in a gun-happy state, most people I know would consider having 20 to 30 guns particularly zealous.
I was being 'tongue in cheek' - mostly.

Kind of a response to: "a wealthy retiree without strong political or religious convictions or a particular zeal for guns..."
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« Reply #43 on: Oct 03, 2017, 11:32AM »

On the subject of automatic weapons:

Nevada places relatively light restrictions on fully automatic weapon purchase. The federal restriction is that the gun has to be manufactured before 1986, so they're very expensive, but you can buy them.

I saw a device on the news yesterday that mounts on the trigger of a semi-automatic. It has a small crank attached to some sort of cam in front of the trigger, and can simulate automatic firing when the crank is turned.
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« Reply #44 on: Oct 03, 2017, 11:34AM »

I just did a little googling.

There are estimated to be up to 310 million guns in the us.  There are also about 303 Million people over the age of 5.  So there are more guns than there are people capable of holding and aiming one. Amazed
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« Reply #45 on: Oct 03, 2017, 12:12PM »

Speaking as an American, one who grew up in a gun-happy state, most people I know would consider having 20 to 30 guns particularly zealous.

I'm not sure it's safe to assume normal psychology in a case such as this though ... eh?
 
His zealotry may have been about his plan to kill a bunch of people, and his guns just the chosen means.
 
But it does seem more likely he had at least a fairly high degree of zeal about his guns and just kept it under wraps, though that's also not particularly normal--at least not to that extent. I've known entirely normal hunters and competitive amateur shooters who have a collection in the multi-dozen range. But then I'd also say all of those cases are dudes who are pretty religious about guns and gun rights too (that's pretty normal in these here parts).
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« Reply #46 on: Oct 03, 2017, 12:17PM »

I just did a little googling.

There are estimated to be up to 310 million guns in the us...

I wonder what the cost of confiscating one gun would be. The cost of public awareness, personnel, record keeping, facilities...?
 
Maybe around $1000 per unit just for the ones that were given up voluntarily?

Just removing a third of those guns from the landscape might be economically unfeasible.
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« Reply #47 on: Oct 03, 2017, 01:31PM »


 
Would a silencer on the sort of rifles used in this attack make it quiet enough that people in a loud concert venue would never hear the shooting?

I understand it makes it a little harder to localize the direction it's coming from.

So far all the calibers mentioned are supersonic through the 500 yard range so it's impossible to silence the bullet. 

If you look at the dB ratings on suppressors you'll see the rifle itself is still pretty loud.  On the other hand in many countries it is mandatory to use them (because your guide is at work and entitled to the DIN equivalent of OSHA protection). 
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« Reply #48 on: Oct 03, 2017, 02:11PM »

Have any of the firearm owners here ever used or personally witnessed a "silencer" being used?
 
Would a silencer on the sort of rifles used in this attack make it quiet enough that people in a loud concert venue would never hear the shooting?
suppressors are great, very nice on the .223 caliber used in this instance, brings the noise down so you can shoot it in your house without using hearing protection.  So yes it would be quiet enough so that folk's in the park a couple of football fields away would have a problem hearing your weapon, even if the concert wasn't going on.  The amount of sound reduction would vary with the particular gun but figure 32-36DB drop on an AR15.  In addition you'll also suppress muzzle flash so it will be harder to see you.  Actually an AR15 with a decent sight, suppressor, and shorter (i.e. 16") barrel makes for a nice home defense weapon - easier to use than a handgun or shotgun.
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« Reply #49 on: Oct 03, 2017, 02:48PM »

Suddenly this is in religion. I can post again.

You definitely need hearing protection if you are shooting an AR15 with a suppressor. It makes the report of the round going off hard to locate and softer, but not the crack of the bullets.

The only time it works like in the movies is when you have a subsonic round in the .22 caliber or smaller.

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« Reply #50 on: Oct 03, 2017, 03:03PM »

And if you are shooting full auto, you probably have about 2 seconds until it stops working.  Suppressors are only effective about 20 rounds worth. 
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« Reply #51 on: Oct 03, 2017, 03:48PM »

Listening to the recent police statements from Las Vegas, it appears that the Australian partner/girlfriend Marilou Danley is 'a person of interest' in the investigations about the gunman Stephen Paddock. Apparently just before he carried out the massacre, Paddock transferred a large sum of money to the Philippines where she is known to have recently been. But US officials said she was now in Tokyo.

Since Marilou Danley lived with Paddock, it seems unlikely she would not have known about the extraordinary number of guns, explosives etc he had collected. It is also strange that she left the country before he carried out what obviously was a planned outrage.
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« Reply #52 on: Oct 03, 2017, 04:34PM »

Since Marilou Danley lived with Paddock, it seems unlikely she would not have known about the extraordinary number of guns, explosives etc he had collected. It is also strange that she left the country before he carried out what obviously was a planned outrage.
I'm not so sure of this.  Not to make light of the situation, but my wife does not even know how many trombones I have  or how many microprocessors are hanging around, and those questions could be answered with a simple question, as I have no real desire to keep any of that a secret.  She's just not that into my hobbies.  If I was intent on keeping it from her, I'm sure she would still not know.
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« Reply #53 on: Oct 03, 2017, 04:51PM »

And if you are shooting full auto, you probably have about 2 seconds until it stops working.  Suppressors are only effective about 20 rounds worth. 

not true. Maybe a homemade one but not a commercial one. More like 500 on constant belt fed auto and 10,000 on aggressive firing with breaks.
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« Reply #54 on: Oct 03, 2017, 04:59PM »

Yup.
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« Reply #55 on: Oct 03, 2017, 05:02PM »

It makes the report of the round going off hard to locate and softer, but not the crack of the bullets.
Simple physics.  The muzzle velocity of the AR15 is nearly 4 times the speed of sound in Las Vegas.  With a silencer, about 2.5 times the SoS.  Still enough for a very loud shock wave.
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« Reply #56 on: Oct 03, 2017, 05:05PM »

suppressors are great, very nice on the .223 caliber used in this instance, brings the noise down so you can shoot it in your house without using hearing protection. 

Now that is an exciting household environment!

Wait...Is that the wife talking...Hello Honey...WHAT!

  Way cool



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« Reply #57 on: Oct 03, 2017, 06:12PM »

Oh!...Why is this in Religion?

 Don't know
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« Reply #58 on: Oct 03, 2017, 06:17PM »

It's the only reason why I can post in it. I'd be posting in the gun control thread if I could but I blocked PP because 99% of it is nonsense.

If I could post in gun control, I'd say that NFA weapons, such as machine guns (legal definition), bayonets, super short barreled PDWs, grenade launchers and other explosives, as well as some non NFA items such as the bump stock and other devices that circumvent the NFA rules should just be completely banned. No one outside of the military needs to have access to these things, even if they were made before 1986. There is no beneficial reason to possess them, just as there is no benefit to crystal meth. A normal person can  understand why they can't own a hydrogen bomb. They should be able to see why there is no need for an NFA item as well. So, no tax stamps, no registration, no nothing. No avenue to buy such an item.

I would then like to see access to handguns become similar to current NFA item rules. Far and away, despite high profile cases like these mass shootings, most gun murders are committed by people with hand guns. They are small, easily concealed, and basically only effective against humans. Sure, when I was in Alaska, I considered purchasing a full frame Glock 20 for hiking in the wilderness. I decided that, despite being great peace of mind in my bag in case of a bear or moose attack, it still would have been way too much of a legal hassle to own once it came time to move. If I moved back permanently and some sort of NFA rule for handguns was in place, I probably would do it anyways. Being on a list, registered, and having to go through interviews with law enforcement to get a handgun for hiking in the woods in Alaska would be an OK trade off, because I understand that handguns are used against humans in crimes far more often than to defend against bears.

When it comes to full sized rifles, I still err on the side of the Constitution. I believe that rifles are what the constitution would recognise as arms. They are handy to have in the wilderness and on large properties. They are part of the reason why a ground attack against the US would be foolish.

Now, should the background check be much more thorough, or include a mental health eval, even to purchase a rifle? Probably. Should rifles be like current NFA items and super restricted? I don't think so. Possibly a bigger issue is magazine capacity for rifles that accept them. 30 rd mags are military gear. You can get mags that hold 60 or even 250 rounds with no kind of check. I think that more than 30 rounds in a magazine doesn't even need debate. There's no utilitarian reason to have that much ammo in your rifle. 30 rounds? That's some serious firepower. Enough to lay down fire for 2 minutes of regular, well aimed shooting. Start the debate there. It seems like the most restrictive states set the upper limit at 10. OK for hunting or bear or home defense even if you have no clue how to operate a weapon. Definitely not enough to rampage or use on full auto without having to stop frequently.

I realize that my opinion is not one any person of a liberal persuasion would even bother to discuss, but I am a conservative and I know most Republicans would say I was way liberal if I said my ideas to them, too. It would be a step in the right direction, towards what I believe the Constitution had in mind as far as private weapons go, and I think it would massively reduce gun violence.
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« Reply #59 on: Oct 03, 2017, 06:22PM »

Not really clear how this guy made a living. No one has found any of the properties he ostensibly owns.

His brother says he was a high-rolling gambler but no one makes money doing that.

Maybe he was running out of money and decided to go out big.
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« Reply #60 on: Oct 03, 2017, 07:59PM »

The latest news about Las Vegas gunman Stephen Paddock's girlfriend, Marilou Danley, is that she has left the Philippines and is heading to the United States, where she is "a person of interest" in the investigation into the shootings. She is believed to have boarded a flight to the US late yesterday.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-10-04/las-vegas-gunman-who-is-paddocks-partner-marilou-danley/9009072

I cannot for the life of me work out why this topic was transferred to Religion. Politics maybe but I never intended it to have a political trend.
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« Reply #61 on: Oct 03, 2017, 08:12PM »

I don't understand either.  Maybe Greg (Slide Advantage) just doesn't want it in Chit-Chat.
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« Reply #62 on: Oct 03, 2017, 08:23PM »

I'm very doubtful that civilians having rifles, even advanced ones, is the reason Russia or Red China hasn't attacked the US or the reason that if they did they would fail.

That worked in "Red Dawn" but that's just a movie.

They would be more than able to neutralize the threat posed by random civilians or even somewhat organized civilians pulling out their automatic hunting rifles.

Russia has show it's willing and able to absolutely flatten any insurgent force they encounter and I suspect China would too.
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« Reply #63 on: Oct 04, 2017, 04:20AM »

I'm very doubtful that civilians having rifles, even advanced ones, is the reason Russia or Red China hasn't attacked the US or the reason that if they did they would fail.
 
That worked in "Red Dawn" but that's just a movie.
 
They would be more than able to neutralize the threat posed by random civilians or even somewhat organized civilians pulling out their automatic hunting rifles.
 
Russia has show it's willing and able to absolutely flatten any insurgent force they encounter and I suspect China would too.

Frankly I find a comment like that pretty amazing.
 
You seem to be assuming an invading force is only dealing with armed civilians--as if the military's going to just leave it to us.
 
You recognize that these militant civilians would be all over the place and none to shy about engaging invaders (that's the real question), but you don't seem to notice that this would all be happening at the same time. It would be a pretty huge factor. The history of civilian resistance doesn't suggest armed civilians are an insignificant force to deal with for invading armies.
 
That's not why the idea that such a resistance is why no one's invaded is goofy.
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« Reply #64 on: Oct 04, 2017, 04:55AM »

no one has invaded because we have two very large oceans on either side.

If you think armed civilians would be a threat to a massed invading force the size china or russia can field, you're high. you're absolutely %$#$#^% high. the friendly fire casualties alone would send most of the undisciplined lot scurrying for what's left of the hills.

not to mention armed civilians are pretty useless against air power.

armed civilians are significant against an occupying force. not an invading one. there's a difference. I'd expect you to know that BvB.

when the detente between us and them breaks down, it'll be nuclear. 2nd amendment will help absolutely zero people. but by all means keep giving money to the NRA and gun manufacturers.

can the adults please get back to discussing adult things?


and keep the jokes to a minimum. some of us have friends and family we're still waiting to hear from.
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« Reply #65 on: Oct 04, 2017, 05:40AM »

It'll be interesting to see what they find on the guy's computers.  There must be some record of sites visited or maybe e-mail correspondence.

This is one for the psychoanalysts.  No history.  No predisposition to speak of.  Just a love for fancy firearms (and a lot of people like that don't  shoot lots of other people in public places.
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« Reply #66 on: Oct 04, 2017, 07:11AM »

This is the comment I was reacting to.  The claim that civilian-held rifles are a serious deterrent to invasion.



When it comes to full sized rifles, I still err on the side of the Constitution. I believe that rifles are what the constitution would recognise as arms. They are handy to have in the wilderness and on large properties. They are part of the reason why a ground attack against the US would be foolish.

The ideas that wilderness hunters with rifles, whose primary previous experience is shooting unarmed deer, are reckoned as a serious opposition to a modern organized military is not realistic.

 




Frankly I find a comment like that pretty amazing.
 
You seem to be assuming an invading force is...

It is not-amazing that you've manufactured a bunch of things I didn't say.
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« Reply #67 on: Oct 04, 2017, 07:31AM »

no one has invaded because we have two very large oceans on either side.
For starters ...
 
If you think armed civilians would be a threat to a massed invading force the size china or russia can field, you're high. you're absolutely %$#$#^% high. the friendly fire casualties alone would send most of the undisciplined lot scurrying for what's left of the hills.
 
not to mention armed civilians are pretty useless against air power.

armed civilians are significant against an occupying force. not an invading one. there's a difference. I'd expect you to know that BvB.
Granted ... didn't say it but I was assuming (under my own radar) the invading force wouldn't just invade and then immediately bug out. In fact I'm not sure that would constitute an invasion or at what specific point an invasion becomes an occupation, though for the invasion to conclude as a transition to occupation a defensible presence would have to be established, and that's mainly where knuckleheads (and others) with guns would start becoming an issue.
 
when the detente between us and them breaks down, it'll be nuclear. 2nd amendment will help absolutely zero people. but by all means keep giving money to the NRA and gun manufacturers.
More than likely, at least any time soon.
 
My point was that it's silly to think that the armed populace here is The Reason we haven't ever been invaded--also, as a secondary point, that it's ignorant to think an armed populace is a non-factor in an invasion that becomes an attempted occupation--i.e. one that isn't just a hit and run operation ... which I don't think would actually be an invasion.
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« Reply #68 on: Oct 04, 2017, 07:37AM »

It is not-amazing that you've manufactured a bunch of things I didn't say.

Nope, it's not surprising in the slightest--pretty predictable in fact. It has to do with psychological priming and the reference to Red Dawn.
 
Priming is a solid if kinda devious debate tactic--not at all to suggest you were using it intentionally that way though. It's just an effect of using a bit of flavor in our language that we're largely unaware of.
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« Reply #69 on: Oct 04, 2017, 07:38AM »

People who think that Americans armed to the teeth with semi-automatic rifles and handguns would be effective in fighting off an invading country have watched the movie Red Dawn too many times.
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« Reply #70 on: Oct 04, 2017, 07:40AM »

People who think that Americans armed to the teeth with semi-automatic rifles and handguns would be effective in fighting off an invading country have watched the movie Red Dawn too many times.

That's probably got a lot to do with why no one's made such an argument.
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« Reply #71 on: Oct 04, 2017, 07:48AM »

Quote from: bhcordova

I thought it was the right place, personally.
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« Reply #72 on: Oct 04, 2017, 08:55AM »

I think that paddock is a scapegoat because it is impossible for him as an untrained retired overweight flabby 64 yr old that he is to have pulled off an attack as agreesive as this was. He practically has no digital footprint, found dead, speculated to be a suicide, with no ballistic proof, and the FBI insistence that it wasn’t any kind of terrotistic attack.

My theory is that he was kidnapped, and planted at this crime scene as the scapegoat. The killers killed him and made their escape leaving no trace behind.

So, the ISIS is looking more credible to me at this point.

The FBI is still the Obama FBI, which always denied there was any kind of Islamic terror, as they always tried to paint a different picture. So, it’s not surprising that less than 12 hours in, with no intel, said with confidence, this was not an ISIS attack, even though, after more than a year, still can’t find evidence that there was Russian collusion with Trump.

The story being floated just doesn’t pass the smell test. This guy looks more like a hostage than a trained sniper. I understand it takes a lot of strength and training to withstand the intense blow back when you fire these rifles in automatic mode for 10 minutes or longer.
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« Reply #73 on: Oct 04, 2017, 09:03AM »

Just a couple of definitions:


1.  A RAID is an attack and withdrawal.  They may take some objects, but do not remain.

2.  An INVASION is the front line of a force.  They take control of territory.

3.  An OCCUPATION is what happens after the invasion where the invading force tries to maintain control of territory.

Dickerson, the exit door was observed within a few minutes of the shooting; and there's camera surveillance of the hall.  If ISIS terrorists did the dirty work, they would be seen exiting the room.
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« Reply #74 on: Oct 04, 2017, 09:17AM »

That’s the story being put out there. This could be like the Kennedy shooting in Dallas where a lot of people don’t accept the gov version of events.

Video surveillance tapes can be hacked or changed.
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« Reply #75 on: Oct 04, 2017, 09:29AM »

That’s the story being put out there. This could be like the Kennedy shooting in Dallas where a lot of people don’t accept the gov version of events.

Video surveillance tapes can be hacked or changed.

Now you are sounding like Evan51 and his feeling that the World Trade Center collapse was not caused by the airliner hits.

I guess if you want to believe that I can't dissuade you.  But be wary of Russian disinformation hacks.
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« Reply #76 on: Oct 04, 2017, 09:55AM »

Military Invasion
 
But let's let the pedantics go for the sake of the topic. Suffice it to say an invasion in which a significant segment of a large population is involved wouldn't be a quick in and out type operation. It's a sidebar kinda point anyway, which was about the fact that our armed population isn't why we've never been invaded (that context alone eliminates a singular in/out type of incursion like Pearl Harbor from the kind of operation at issue).
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« Reply #77 on: Oct 04, 2017, 09:58AM »

That’s the story being put out there. This could be like the Kennedy shooting in Dallas where a lot of people don’t accept the gov version of events.

Video surveillance tapes can be hacked or changed.

Little objective reality, simply subjective experience and interpretation. The philosophical underpinnings of Trumpism.

Or a summation of the principles of Russian bots/disinformation campaign. I continue to believe you're a Russian bot Dusty. Intentionally spreading disinformation. Worst mass shooting in US history, hard on the heels of three major natural disasters. Couldn't be coincidence.
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« Reply #78 on: Oct 04, 2017, 10:13AM »

So, the ISIS is looking more credible to me at this point.
Not credible at all Dusty.  There is no stake in killing anyone as a terrorist if you keep it a secret that you did it.  If it was an ISIS act of terrorism, they would have taken credit for it.  That's what terrorist do.  They probably would have painted their slogans on the walls of the hotel room.  They quite often take credit for things they had nothing to do with, but wished they had.

Again your repeating a comment that holds no water.

"The purpose of terrorism is to exploit the media in order to achieve maximum attainable publicity as an amplifying force multiplier in order to influence the targeted audience(s) in order to reach short and midterm political goals and/or desired long-term end states."
  George C. Marshall European Center for Security Studies
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« Reply #79 on: Oct 04, 2017, 10:15AM »

That’s the story being put out there.
LOL!  No doubt!
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« Reply #80 on: Oct 04, 2017, 10:22AM »

Doesn't ISIS typically have a pre-recorded video from its suicide attackers, professing dedication to the movement, when they are really behind the planning?
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« Reply #81 on: Oct 04, 2017, 10:26AM »

Yes! Finally the truth! ISIS did it to show us exactly how absurd our gun laws were and how vulnerable the public is to those absurd laws... They want to terrorize us with ourselves!
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« Reply #82 on: Oct 04, 2017, 10:52AM »

There is no stake in killing anyone as a terrorist if you keep it a secret that you did it.  If it was an ISIS act of terrorism, they would have taken credit for it.  That's what terrorist do.  They probably would have painted their slogans on the walls of the hotel room.  They quite often take credit for things they had nothing to do with, but wished they had.

Well sure.
 
There's that.
 
The fact that covering up their acts of terror is completely contradictory to what terrorists are all about, but ...
 
LOL.
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« Reply #83 on: Oct 04, 2017, 12:35PM »

I think that paddock is a scapegoat because it is impossible for him as an untrained retired overweight flabby 64 yr old that he is to have pulled off an attack as agreesive as this was. He practically has no digital footprint, found dead, speculated to be a suicide, with no ballistic proof, and the FBI insistence that it wasn’t any kind of terrotistic attack.

My theory is that he was kidnapped, and planted at this crime scene as the scapegoat. The killers killed him and made their escape leaving no trace behind.

So, the ISIS is looking more credible to me at this point.

The FBI is still the Obama FBI, which always denied there was any kind of Islamic terror, as they always tried to paint a different picture. So, it’s not surprising that less than 12 hours in, with no intel, said with confidence, this was not an ISIS attack, even though, after more than a year, still can’t find evidence that there was Russian collusion with Trump.

The story being floated just doesn’t pass the smell test. This guy looks more like a hostage than a trained sniper. I understand it takes a lot of strength and training to withstand the intense blow back when you fire these rifles in automatic mode for 10 minutes or longer.

What?

So, if you haven't noticed, you don't have much credibility here.  Now I think that your credibility is somewhat less than a stick of gum.

Congratulations, your media choices have made you completely gullible. 

Cheers,
Andy

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« Reply #84 on: Oct 04, 2017, 01:56PM »

What?

So, if you haven't noticed, you don't have much credibility here.  Now I think that your credibility is somewhat less than a stick of gum.

Congratulations, your media choices have made you completely gullible. 

Cheers,
Andy

*and if Don Jr. actually admitting that he was excited to collude with the Russians isn't evidence... Here's your sign...

And you don’t speak to any of my points, and that gives you credibility. How much is it worth, this trombone forum cred you speak so highly of? LOL!

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« Reply #85 on: Oct 04, 2017, 02:05PM »

I don't think dd should be participating in these threads.

He has an established and admitted history of inserting intentionally false, intentionally misleading statements to derail a conversation.

I think we have an expectation that material presented on the this forum is sincere even if mistaken. That is not the case with dd. We know he has purposely lied in these discussion before. No apology is ever made. He just waits a bit until he can step back in and poison another topic.

There are many other places on the web he can go where other people are eager to hear the dumbness.  

But why is the trombone forum accommodating it?
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« Reply #86 on: Oct 04, 2017, 02:57PM »

But why is the trombone forum accommodating it?
Comic relief?
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« Reply #87 on: Oct 04, 2017, 03:12PM »

I don't think dd should be participating in these threads.
 
He has an established and admitted history of inserting intentionally false, intentionally misleading statements to derail a conversation.
 
I think we have an expectation that material presented on the this forum is sincere even if mistaken. That is not the case with dd. We know he has purposely lied in these discussion before. No apology is ever made. He just waits a bit until he can step back in and poison another topic.
 
There are many other places on the web he can go where other people are eager to hear the dumbness.
 
But why is the trombone forum accommodating it?

The rhetoric of the Alt-Right™, which would be very easy to argue is what DD's posts represent, definitely is a problem. In terms of the TOU intellectual negligence and such a casual relationship with honesty are highly disrespectful. And worse, as we've seen in recent decades in the Public Square, the bigger problem is that they tap into some key hooks in human psychology which allows that sort of rhetoric to set the social climate. It's plainly and highly toxic in that regard. It's very effective at preventing and destroying discussion, which is obviously completely and fundamentally contrary to the idea of a forum.
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« Reply #88 on: Oct 04, 2017, 03:42PM »

I don't think dd should be participating in these threads.

Who are you?
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« Reply #89 on: Oct 04, 2017, 05:09PM »

Reverting again to the subject of Stephen Paddock's girlfriend Marilou Danley; she has now returned to the US and through her lawyer has provided the following information about her relationship and why she was away when he carried out the atrocity.

"A few weeks ago, Stephen told me he found me a cheap ticket for me to the Philippines and he wanted me to take a trip home to see my family.

Like all Filipinos abroad, I was excited to go home and see family and friends.

While there, he wired me money, which he said was for me to buy a house for me and my family. I was grateful, but honestly I was worried that first the unexpected trip home and then the money was a way of breaking up with me. It never occurred to me in any way whatsoever that he was planning violence against anyone."

So far, there has been no mention of the stock of guns and explosives they found at their joint house and in the motel room he used. It is difficult to imagine that she could have not been aware of such a large amount of weaponry or not wondered why it was there.

Ms Danley is an Australian citizen who lived on the Gold Coast before moving to the US. I have no doubt more detail will emerge from the authorities in Las Vegas.
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« Reply #90 on: Oct 04, 2017, 05:21PM »

Who are you?
That'd be Robert - expressing his freedom of speech.
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« Reply #91 on: Oct 04, 2017, 06:32PM »

Did Paddock have an unusual number of weapons? Enough to raise suspicions?
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« Reply #92 on: Oct 04, 2017, 07:13PM »

That'd be Robert - expressing his freedom of speech.

Tell him I too have freedom of speech, lol!
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« Reply #93 on: Oct 04, 2017, 07:46PM »

Tell him I too have freedom of speech, lol!

You have freedom of speech, but are subject to being called out for untruths.  Just as we all do.
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« Reply #94 on: Oct 04, 2017, 07:48PM »

That'd be Robert - expressing his freedom of speech.

Members of that subculture aren't going to get that, no matter how much effort it requires of them. His understanding is 100% self-serving with no other functioning standard in place.
 
Any concept that includes any aspect that doesn't affirm them will be misunderstood at least to the degree that it "fails" to do so.
 
It's a subculture that cherishes intellectual cowardice as the highest of virtues and teaches, nurtures and raises it to the level of a superpower.
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« Reply #95 on: Oct 04, 2017, 08:53PM »

You have freedom of speech, but are subject to being called out for untruths.  Just as we all do.

Right now we’re theorizing what’s going on. I wouldn’t categorize that as a lie.

Untruths get posted in PP everyday. Now the girlfriend is saying she wasn’t aware of anything he was doing. This is not passing the smell test.
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« Reply #96 on: Oct 05, 2017, 12:09AM »

This is not passing the smell test.

I guess that would be the nothingburger smell test, right?  Yeah, RIGHT.

Seen any other cliches you can parrot for us?
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« Reply #97 on: Oct 05, 2017, 05:28AM »

I guess that would be the nothingburger smell test, right?  Yeah, RIGHT.

Seen any other cliches you can parrot for us?

You think all the circumstances are adding up?
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« Reply #98 on: Oct 05, 2017, 05:40AM »

So far, there has been no mention of the stock of guns and explosives they found at their joint house and in the motel room he used. It is difficult to imagine that she could have not been aware of such a large amount of weaponry or not wondered why it was there.

Saw something saying he bought a massive load of semi-automatics, something like 33, in just the past month. which yes, is unfortunately legal here.

In which case, if he got this itch in his head, sent her off, and planned for two weeks... it's unfortunately yet entirely possible.
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« Reply #99 on: Oct 05, 2017, 05:41AM »

And you don’t speak to any of my points, and that gives you credibility. How much is it worth, this trombone forum cred you speak so highly of? LOL!


You made points?  You are so clearly lost to reality.

Come on home, we miss a rational DD.
Andy
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« Reply #100 on: Oct 05, 2017, 06:02AM »

Come on home, we miss a rational DD.
Has that ever existed?
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« Reply #101 on: Oct 05, 2017, 06:04AM »

From DD: "I think that paddock is a scapegoat because it is impossible for him as an untrained retired overweight flabby 64 yr old that he is to have pulled off an attack as agreesive as this was."

That's the thing about guns, DD, an aggressive attack can be pulled off by anybody with absolutely zero military training. What in the hell would prevent "an untrained retired overweight flabby 64 yr old" from using a firearm? Was he missing his arms? No eyes? So far as we can tell he was in possession of two arms and two eyes... and lots of guns. I think you actually enjoy being called an idiot so I won't do that today, I just want to point out the absolute lunacy being displayed here so the least mentally fortunate among us don't believe this ******** as well. You are either beyond hope or just plain evil. I used to give you the benefit of the doubt. I don't know if you deserve that anymore.

" He practically has no digital footprint" - he was 64, DD, something you seem aware of. I wouldn't have one either if I didn't need one for my line of work. Most friends and colleagues of mine that age don't have a digital footprint to speak of. Should we worry about them too?

"found dead, speculated to be a suicide," - he just fired on a crowd of 22,000 people, DD. Is suicide really that surprising? Murder-suicides are quite common in the country because easy access to guns makes them really easy to carry out.

"with no ballistic proof," what the holy jumping **** does this mean anyway? You mean other than the big hole in his ******* head? I understand that standards of proof are suspect with the "Hillary's emails!" crowd but Jesus, wait for the investigation to finish before you start spouting off nonsense about "no ballistic proof" - do you get your news straight from idiot weekly or are you just making this up?

"...and the FBI insistence that it wasn’t any kind of terrotistic [sic] attack." - Finally, something we can agree on. We don't like to call white guys terrorists. If we start calling all of these angry white guys who go around shooting up concerts and schools and churches "terrorists", we'll have to finally go after the gun lobby which is actively aiding and abetting terrorism. At least Nevada got it right... what this guy did definitely qualifies as terrorism under Nevada state law.

"My theory is that he was kidnapped, and planted at this crime scene as the scapegoat. The killers killed him and made their escape leaving no trace behind." didn't you say something about evidence earlier? This is just flat out insulting to the intelligence of pretty much anyone who ever drew breath. Why do you think this, DD? Because he's an old flabby white guy who was somehow incapable of buying 40 some-odd firearms (23 of which were found in his suite); because being 64 somehow limits his ability to purchase a bump stock or heft up a relatively lightweight assault rifle and a high capacity magazine? Does being 64 limit his ability to fire a weapon down into a crowd of 22,000 people? Does being 64 somehow means the physics of the whole horrible ordeal no longer apply? With the number of law enforcement converging on Mandalay at the time, there wouldn't have been anyone escaping without a trace. New reports that Paddock meant to survive and escape show how delusional he was. Once the officer's triangulated the source, there was no way in hell anyone was getting out of that hotel without a trace. This ain't a movie, DD.

"So, the ISIS is looking more credible to me at this point." Maybe to the tinfoil hat crowd. Where's the "death to the infidel" videos uploaded on FB from Paddock? Why no NH4 NO3 in the room to take down the hotel? It was in his car, right? Why no credit other than some rando black pj wearing momma's boy saying "I did that!"  Sorry, this was just an angry entitled white guy who though the world should pay for his disillusionment. Just another psychopath who shouldn't have had access to guns.

"The FBI is still the Obama FBI, which always denied there was any kind of Islamic terror, as they always tried to paint a different picture. So, it’s not surprising that less than 12 hours in, with no intel, said with confidence, this was not an ISIS attack, even though, after more than a year, still can’t find evidence that there was Russian collusion with Trump."  Stop huffing glue. Seriously, DD, stop huffing glue. That $hit will eat your brain. Repeat after me: Stop. Huffing. Glue.

"The story being floated just doesn’t pass the smell test. This guy looks more like a hostage than a trained sniper."  DD, the guy was firing on a massed crowd of 22,000 people, from 32 stories up, 400 yards away, with perfect defilade, with automatic weapons and only killed 50 people. Why do you think taking the "high ground" is such an important military objective? From that height, there is very little cover or concealment to speak of at an outdoor venue. There were 22,000 people massed in that area with nowhere to go. From that angle, every bullet fired is going to hit someone. Particularly when you figure in the natural reaction of many to duck instead of running. Ducking does nothing to mitigate loss when the shooter has that kind of advantage. He didn't need to be trained. You don't need training to figure that out, just a brain capable of homicidal thought. Smell test? What the hell does that even mean? This is a white male terrorist using legally bought weapons to kill innocent people, not week old chicken.

" I understand it takes a lot of strength and training to withstand the intense blow back when you fire these rifles in automatic mode for 10 minutes or longer."  DD, he's holding up an automatic rifle and squeezing a trigger. He's not swinging a broadsword. Intense blowback? These aren't 12 gauge shotguns on fill auto. They're .223 -.308 caliber. He wasn't a small guy and was very likely jacked up on adrenaline.

Oh and I can't let this one go: "Tell him I too have freedom of speech, lol!"  Just like how every psychopath who shoots up a gathering gives up in perpetuity his right to bear arms, an intellectually dishonest coward who chooses to use his words to spread lies and hate will ultimately give up his right to free speech. What good is free speech when your words aren't worth the air it took to mutter them?

The entirety of your statements is just grasping at straws trying to create a tinfoil hat wearing counter argument out of thin air. You are adding to the overall level of dumb in american political discourse when you post **** like this. What happened? You are helping those who seek to divide us. You are not dumb enough to believe any of this, yet still you continue to spread this brain rotting drivel. Enjoy those rubles.
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« Reply #102 on: Oct 05, 2017, 06:25AM »

Saw something saying he bought a massive load of semi-automatics, something like 33, in just the past month. which yes, is unfortunately legal here.

In which case, if he got this itch in his head, sent her off, and planned for two weeks... it's unfortunately yet entirely possible.

Yeah, the morning news talked about him buying the guns in the past year.

That makes more sense.  Nobody claims to have thought he was obsessed with guns previously.  Accumulating a number of guns over a lifetime isn't necessarily any kind of red flag.  But a sudden change in behavior in the past year, combined with buying lots of weapons, apparently in four different states, does. 
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« Reply #103 on: Oct 05, 2017, 07:32AM »

From DD: "I think that paddock is a scapegoat because it is impossible for him as an untrained retired overweight flabby 64 yr old that he is to have pulled off an attack as agreesive as this was."

That's the thing about guns, DD, an aggressive attack can be pulled off by anybody with absolutely zero military training. What in the hell would prevent "an untrained retired overweight flabby 64 yr old" from using a firearm? Was he missing his arms? No eyes? So far as we can tell he was in possession of two arms and two eyes... and lots of guns. I think you actually enjoy being called an idiot so I won't do that today, I just want to point out the absolute lunacy being displayed here so the least mentally fortunate among us don't believe this ******** as well. You are either beyond hope or just plain evil. I used to give you the benefit of the doubt. I don't know if you deserve that anymore.

" He practically has no digital footprint" - he was 64, DD, something you seem aware of. I wouldn't have one either if I didn't need one for my line of work. Most friends and colleagues of mine that age don't have a digital footprint to speak of. Should we worry about them too?

"found dead, speculated to be a suicide," - he just fired on a crowd of 22,000 people, DD. Is suicide really that surprising? Murder-suicides are quite common in the country because easy access to guns makes them really easy to carry out.

"with no ballistic proof," what the holy jumping **** does this mean anyway? You mean other than the big hole in his ******* head? I understand that standards of proof are suspect with the "Hillary's emails!" crowd but Jesus, wait for the investigation to finish before you start spouting off nonsense about "no ballistic proof" - do you get your news straight from idiot weekly or are you just making this up?

"...and the FBI insistence that it wasn’t any kind of terrotistic [sic] attack." - Finally, something we can agree on. We don't like to call white guys terrorists. If we start calling all of these angry white guys who go around shooting up concerts and schools and churches "terrorists", we'll have to finally go after the gun lobby which is actively aiding and abetting terrorism. At least Nevada got it right... what this guy did definitely qualifies as terrorism under Nevada state law.

"My theory is that he was kidnapped, and planted at this crime scene as the scapegoat. The killers killed him and made their escape leaving no trace behind." didn't you say something about evidence earlier? This is just flat out insulting to the intelligence of pretty much anyone who ever drew breath. Why do you think this, DD? Because he's an old flabby white guy who was somehow incapable of buying 40 some-odd firearms (23 of which were found in his suite); because being 64 somehow limits his ability to purchase a bump stock or heft up a relatively lightweight assault rifle and a high capacity magazine? Does being 64 limit his ability to fire a weapon down into a crowd of 22,000 people? Does being 64 somehow means the physics of the whole horrible ordeal no longer apply? With the number of law enforcement converging on Mandalay at the time, there wouldn't have been anyone escaping without a trace. New reports that Paddock meant to survive and escape show how delusional he was. Once the officer's triangulated the source, there was no way in hell anyone was getting out of that hotel without a trace. This ain't a movie, DD.

"So, the ISIS is looking more credible to me at this point." Maybe to the tinfoil hat crowd. Where's the "death to the infidel" videos uploaded on FB from Paddock? Why no NH4 NO3 in the room to take down the hotel? It was in his car, right? Why no credit other than some rando black pj wearing momma's boy saying "I did that!"  Sorry, this was just an angry entitled white guy who though the world should pay for his disillusionment. Just another psychopath who shouldn't have had access to guns.

"The FBI is still the Obama FBI, which always denied there was any kind of Islamic terror, as they always tried to paint a different picture. So, it’s not surprising that less than 12 hours in, with no intel, said with confidence, this was not an ISIS attack, even though, after more than a year, still can’t find evidence that there was Russian collusion with Trump."  Stop huffing glue. Seriously, DD, stop huffing glue. That $hit will eat your brain. Repeat after me: Stop. Huffing. Glue.

"The story being floated just doesn’t pass the smell test. This guy looks more like a hostage than a trained sniper."  DD, the guy was firing on a massed crowd of 22,000 people, from 32 stories up, 400 yards away, with perfect defilade, with automatic weapons and only killed 50 people. Why do you think taking the "high ground" is such an important military objective? From that height, there is very little cover or concealment to speak of at an outdoor venue. There were 22,000 people massed in that area with nowhere to go. From that angle, every bullet fired is going to hit someone. Particularly when you figure in the natural reaction of many to duck instead of running. Ducking does nothing to mitigate loss when the shooter has that kind of advantage. He didn't need to be trained. You don't need training to figure that out, just a brain capable of homicidal thought. Smell test? What the hell does that even mean? This is a white male terrorist using legally bought weapons to kill innocent people, not week old chicken.

" I understand it takes a lot of strength and training to withstand the intense blow back when you fire these rifles in automatic mode for 10 minutes or longer."  DD, he's holding up an automatic rifle and squeezing a trigger. He's not swinging a broadsword. Intense blowback? These aren't 12 gauge shotguns on fill auto. They're .223 -.308 caliber. He wasn't a small guy and was very likely jacked up on adrenaline.

Oh and I can't let this one go: "Tell him I too have freedom of speech, lol!"  Just like how every psychopath who shoots up a gathering gives up in perpetuity his right to bear arms, an intellectually dishonest coward who chooses to use his words to spread lies and hate will ultimately give up his right to free speech. What good is free speech when your words aren't worth the air it took to mutter them?

The entirety of your statements is just grasping at straws trying to create a tinfoil hat wearing counter argument out of thin air. You are adding to the overall level of dumb in american political discourse when you post **** like this. What happened? You are helping those who seek to divide us. You are not dumb enough to believe any of this, yet still you continue to spread this brain rotting drivel. Enjoy those rubles.

I'm just posting what I think are possibilities. I'm still not totally convinced that an untrained overweight person can sustain this aggressive an attack with these types of rifles. That's my opinion. Does that make me evil? I don't have to try to divide us because the left does a very good job of that.

If you think my post questioning how an old retired 64 could pull this off, what about the articles written about this shooting by known lefties that say the victims deserved what they got because they probably voted for Trump. You think that's not divisive, but my questioning this man's ability is?

Look, I have no experience with guns, but I do remember an incident in the short past, where at a firing range, an instructor let a child shoot one of these types of rifles, and when she/he pulled the trigger, the blow back spun her/him around, and the gun still firing shot and killed the instructor. When they are firing intensely for 10 solid minutes, a lot of heat is created also.

This guy is probably doing this for the first time, and like me, probably wouldn't have been able or have the know how, to do this. You stated it, like it was shooting a pistol, who anyone can do. If this wasn't his first experience shooting these kinds of rounds, we should have witnesses from the local firing ranges acknowledging that he was at one. He obviously spent a lot of time meticulously planning all this out, with the location, hotel room, high dollar weapons, getting the weapons and ammo up to the 32 floor without being noticed as unusual activity for a hotel guest. So, with this high level of planning, he thought that he didn't need to do any training on the weapons themselves? he thought that he could just do it on the fly for the first time?

This still does not pass muster with me, and if that makes you think less of me, then so be it. You won't be the first. Now I have a friend that has experience with these types of weapons, and he claims that the blow back and heat wouldn't have stopped this type of untrained, not in shape, person. So, that is why I'm saying it is my opinion, not stating it as fact.

It's also my opinion, that the girlfriend knows more than she's saying. I'm assuming that they were at least living together? I haven't read one way or the other on that. But since he sent her a hundred grand, I would think that they were more than just casual dating partners.

Oh yeah, I forgot. This issue about digital footprint:
Most information we know about him comes from standard sources that we had long before the digital revolution, and yes, now it can be found on line. But, when I was speaking about digital footprint, I was thinking, nothing to be found on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, etc. Usually, but not always, when someone is this highly charged up with emotion, or whatever it was that drove him to do this, usually talks it up on social media. Usually, after the fact, we find the killer's thinking process all over the Internet in the different forms of social media. But not this guy. Yet. There's nothing there to learn about what motivated this guy, which lends me to believe he was probably a victim of a kidnapping plot or something, to where he would be the stooge and the experts get away clean with nothing left behind. Yet, the hotel security guard was wounded by being shot through the door, and nobody else found in the room but this guy.

However, this is a chat room, where people can come together and post their different ideas of what happens, and it's sad that one can be attacked and called 'evil' just because it makes some people feel uncomfortable. That's how the 'snowflake' term was invented, wasn't it?

When people post stuff I disagree with, my view is that they are wrong, but here, the view is that person is evil. Sad really.

Time will tell what the true story is for this shooter and why he did it.

 
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« Reply #104 on: Oct 05, 2017, 07:45AM »

I'm just posting what I think are possibilities. I'm still not totally convinced that an untrained overweight person can sustain this aggressive an attack with these types of rifles. That's my opinion. Does that make me evil? I don't have to try to divide us because the left does a very good job of that.


It was only ten minutes of shooting, probably from a chair and with the rifles on bipods or otherwise braced.  That pretty well answers the fitness problem.  No aiming was required or possible, that answers the training problem.  So there isn't any obvious impossible scenario here. 

Has anyone identified the weapons used?  Were they military models in a civilian non-auto configuration?  The average deer rifle is fine for 5 rounds but won't hold up to sustained rapid fire.  You'll spend more time clearing jams than shooting, it may even break. 
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« Reply #105 on: Oct 05, 2017, 08:02AM »

It was only ten minutes of shooting, probably from a chair and with the rifles on bipods or otherwise braced.  That pretty well answers the fitness problem.  No aiming was required or possible, that answers the training problem.  So there isn't any obvious impossible scenario here. 

Has anyone identified the weapons used?  Were they military models in a civilian non-auto configuration?  The average deer rifle is fine for 5 rounds but won't hold up to sustained rapid fire.  You'll spend more time clearing jams than shooting, it may even break. 

How does this 'bump stock' work? I thought that you had to lean in on it hard to make it work. ??
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« Reply #106 on: Oct 05, 2017, 08:13AM »

"Time will tell what the true story is for this shooter and why he did it."

I wonder. Maybe just an angry and deranged old white guy, but thoughtful enough to send the girlfriend $100K so she had something to live on after he was killed. 

 
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« Reply #107 on: Oct 05, 2017, 08:19AM »

Time will tell what the true story is for this shooter and why he did it.
We can hope that the facts come out, but they may not be as detailed as we like.  This will, of course, lead soem to try to 'fill in the gaps'.  That's where the real fun(ny stuff) starts.
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« Reply #108 on: Oct 05, 2017, 08:20AM »

How does this 'bump stock' work? I thought that you had to lean in on it hard to make it work. ??

No, it's the opposite.

When the rifle fires it recoils back towards your shoulder.  

then it bounces off a spring forward into your trigger finger.  

(going by what I've been told, I've never shot one.  I am way too frugal to want to do full auto at $1/round, even if I could afford to.)
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« Reply #109 on: Oct 05, 2017, 11:25AM »

I think that paddock is a scapegoat because it is impossible for him as an untrained retired overweight flabby 64 yr old that he is to have pulled off an attack as agreesive as this was. He practically has no digital footprint, found dead, speculated to be a suicide, with no ballistic proof, and the FBI insistence that it wasn’t any kind of terrotistic attack.

My theory is that he was kidnapped, and planted at this crime scene as the scapegoat. The killers killed him and made their escape leaving no trace behind.

So, the ISIS is looking more credible to me at this point.

The FBI is still the Obama FBI, which always denied there was any kind of Islamic terror, as they always tried to paint a different picture. So, it’s not surprising that less than 12 hours in, with no intel, said with confidence, this was not an ISIS attack, even though, after more than a year, still can’t find evidence that there was Russian collusion with Trump.

The story being floated just doesn’t pass the smell test. This guy looks more like a hostage than a trained sniper. I understand it takes a lot of strength and training to withstand the intense blow back when you fire these rifles in automatic mode for 10 minutes or longer.


ROTFL!
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« Reply #110 on: Oct 05, 2017, 11:28AM »

On the radio yesterday they played a tape of somebody shooting with a Bump Stock.  It sure sounded like an automatic.

I think more than 10 of the rifles found in the room were equipped with Bump Stocks.

We still have the heat issue, but if he had enough of them all he had to do when one jammed was grab another.
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« Reply #111 on: Oct 05, 2017, 11:31AM »

If we're going to place restrictions on automatic weapons, we should place the same restrictions on these after-market devices that simulate them, or ban those devices altogether.
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« Reply #112 on: Oct 05, 2017, 11:36AM »

The only use I can see for these "automizers" would be if you were being chased by a bear, puma, or crazed Network Engineer from Houston.  I can see making them illegal everywhere there are people living.  But the NRA claims that these things are good, and they have a strong lobby.
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« Reply #113 on: Oct 05, 2017, 11:38AM »

The only use I can see for these "automizers" would be if you were being chased by a bear, puma, or crazed Network Engineer from Houston.  I can see making them illegal everywhere there are people living.  But the NRA claims that these things are good, and they have a strong lobby.

I saw a gun shop owner interviewed on TV, and he said no serious marksman would use them, and he said 'obviously' hunters would not.
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« Reply #114 on: Oct 05, 2017, 11:48AM »

Marksmen spend thousands of dollars on VERY accurate rifles.  When I was in college (50 years ago) a good target rifle could cost $2000 (that's something like $40,000 today).  I still don't see the value of pumping large numbers of rounds in a short time unless you are up to no good.
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« Reply #115 on: Oct 05, 2017, 11:50AM »

The FBI is still the Obama FBI, which always denied there was any kind of Islamic terror

That's hilarious. Does anyone here believe that even DDickerson believes this? It's easily controverted.

https://www.fbi.gov/file-repository/stats-services-publications-terrorism-2002-2005-terror02_05.pdf/view

Deliberately saying things you know to be untrue for the purpose of getting a rise out of other forum members is trollery, and it's a TOU violation.
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« Reply #116 on: Oct 05, 2017, 11:59AM »

I watched the news briefing with the Sheriff and the FBI spokesman last night and there clearly is a still a lot to come out yet.  Certainly many of us can speculate, but before we laugh at all of the speculations, let's remember what was hinted at last night that will be important.

1.  The sheriff clearly said that it was very meticulously planned and that the shooter appears to have anticipated escaping.

2.  The sheriff clearly hinted that it looks like the shooter had accomplices, but refused to say anything more pending further investigation.

3. The sheriff said that the evidence was there that the man had a double life, but wouldn't give any more info pending further investigation.

4. It appears that he had been casing the venue previously and that he had been stockpiling weapons, ammo and other explosives for quite a while-- there were explosives and thousands of rounds of ammo in his car as well as in the hotel room.

All of this means that what we're doing is mostly speculation. What will come to light is still mostly mystery.  We may all be surprised to find out what the best-case-scenario of his motives and methods were.
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« Reply #117 on: Oct 05, 2017, 12:03PM »

That's hilarious. Does anyone here believe that even DDickerson believes this? It's easily controverted.

https://www.fbi.gov/file-repository/stats-services-publications-terrorism-2002-2005-terror02_05.pdf/view

Deliberately saying things you know to be untrue for the purpose of getting a rise out of other forum members is trollery, and it's a TOU violation.

What’s changed in the FBI?
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« Reply #118 on: Oct 05, 2017, 12:04PM »

What’s changed in the FBI?

Nothing has changed. As you well know, they've never denied the existence of Islamic terrorism, and they still don't.

If you don't care if what you say is true, why post? What good do you think you're doing?

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« Reply #119 on: Oct 05, 2017, 12:12PM »

I wouldn't be surprised if there was logistical support from outsiders.

It certainly seems possible the girlfriend had something to do with it. Her claim was that he sent her away to visit her family, and gave her $100,000 to buy them a house. She says she was worried it was a way to break up with her. She says she didn't suspect at all that he was about to do something terrible. That's a reasonably plausible explanation.

She's from a country with a fairly large Muslim population (about 11%). It's not impossible that he converted to Islam without any of his friends or family knowing after meeting her.

As JtT points out, this is all rank speculation until the truth comes out. Unless you're a tinfoil hat-wearer who thinks the FBI is trying to conceal the existence of Islamic terror.
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« Reply #120 on: Oct 05, 2017, 12:28PM »

This guy is probably doing this for the first time, and like me, probably wouldn't have been able or have the know how, to do this. You stated it, like it was shooting a pistol, who anyone can do. If this wasn't his first experience shooting these kinds of rounds, we should have witnesses from the local firing ranges acknowledging that he was at one. He obviously spent a lot of time meticulously planning all this out, with the location, hotel room, high dollar weapons, getting the weapons and ammo up to the 32 floor without being noticed as unusual activity for a hotel guest. So, with this high level of planning, he thought that he didn't need to do any training on the weapons themselves? he thought that he could just do it on the fly for the first time?
Dude... you don't need a firing range to shoot a gun. Just a wide open space. And that's pretty much Nevada in a nutshell. There's a small population in las vegas, a small population in reno/carson city... and a heck of a wide open space in between and all around.

So, that is why I'm saying it is my opinion, not stating it as fact.
And what is the opinion of someone with no knowledge of the situation with no knowledge of the items in play... what is that opinion worth?


You keep holding up your opinion as if it means something or has merit.

If you really want to know or learn... listening is more important than speaking, and asking is more important than saying.
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« Reply #121 on: Oct 05, 2017, 12:49PM »

I saw a picture of the outside of the hotel.  There are two windows broken out and quite a distance between them.  Lends some credence to the possibility of an accomplice of some kind.

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« Reply #122 on: Oct 05, 2017, 12:57PM »

I saw a picture of the outside of the hotel.  There are two windows broken out and quite a distance between them.  Lends some credence to the possibility of an accomplice of some kind.



I think that these were a part of a suite of some sort that were connected.  Doesn't rule out an accomplice in there with him, but could just as well mean that he was running back and forth between the guns that he had set up on some sort of stands.  We probably will find out more about this.
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« Reply #123 on: Oct 05, 2017, 01:22PM »

I've been to that hotel... I've gambled there on a few occasions. The suites on the upper floors take up quite a bit of space, but it's not as big as you think. That's at the end of a corridor.  It's what, 30-40 feet maybe between those windows... it's a $500 a night suite, not a $50 motel 8. The Hard Rock in Tulsa has suites about that size and it's nowhere near the size of Mandalay Bay.

Two broken windows roughly 30 feet apart - one of those is closer to the door - it makes perfect sense for a psychopath. Multiple shooting positions make localization more difficult. One is necessary for defending/securing his position in the room, the other offers the best vantage point for him to exercise his 2nd amendment rights. Both offer a clear view of the venue and cover.


And to DD's comparing of a 64 year old man with a small child handling a firearm: a .223 or 5.62, even on full auto by means of a bump stock, is not such a physical task that a 64 year old man can't handle it. Sorry, DD, your friend is a dumba$$. Ask anyone else here who has been to basic training. My 5'8" 175lb grandfather at 64 was by no means frail or incapable of handling a firearm. This Paddock guy was over 6' and apparently a psychopath. For what he did, he wouldn't have needed any training. Just a few minutes in the desert to figure out how **** worked. He was a smart man and guns are not complicated pieces of machinery. If they were so difficult to operate you wouldn't hear people like me shouting that we need more sensible gun legislation.

If he had "support", it was probably some crazy meth head he met at a bar in Mesquite who gave him the idea to fire on a concert. Mind you he didn't need an accomplice to carry this out. That's the main thing y'all need to understand. He had more than enough weapons to mitigate the overheating factor. His age would not have been that big a factor in whether he could sustain an attack with an automatic weapon for 10 minutes. Anyone suggesting otherwise is either sorely underestimating the strength of your taller-than-average 64 year old or overestimating the stamina needed to fire a gun.

Chasing conspiracies is a dodge to avoid talking about the real issues. It's a distraction.
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« Reply #124 on: Oct 05, 2017, 02:02PM »

Does anyone know what song was playing when he started to shoot?
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« Reply #125 on: Oct 05, 2017, 02:15PM »

When people post stuff I disagree with, my view is that they are wrong, but here, the view is that person is evil. Sad really.

No one is objecting to the fact that you disagree with them. They're objecting to the fact that you constantly lie.

You know that the FBI doesn't deny the existence of any Islamic terrorism. Why do you say things like that?

Your support of Trump is easily explained by his similar relationship to truthfulness.
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« Reply #126 on: Oct 05, 2017, 02:16PM »

"Chasing conspiracies is a dodge to avoid talking about the real issues. It's a distraction."

Well put.

Psychopath: a person suffering from chronic mental disorder with abnormal or violent social behavior

Maybe not a psychopath in the sense that the evidence is conflicting as to whether he had a chronic mental disorder. Some reports suggest he was a pretty ordinary guy. Did he just snap?  
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« Reply #127 on: Oct 05, 2017, 02:17PM »

If we're going to place restrictions on automatic weapons, we should place the same restrictions on these after-market devices that simulate them, or ban those devices altogether.

That doesn't seem unreasonable.  If you grant the premise that automatic weapons should be controlled, then it's hard to argue that workarounds that do the same thing should not.  I'm one who often argues against controls, for various reasons, but this isn't one I would defend.  
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« Reply #128 on: Oct 05, 2017, 03:00PM »

How does this 'bump stock' work? I thought that you had to lean in on it hard to make it work. ??
Here is a pretty good explanation of how they work along with a video of a young women using one farther down the page.  Looks like any adult of average strength should be able to operate one.  https://lifehacker.com/what-is-a-bump-stock-and-why-is-it-so-dangerous-1819180018
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« Reply #129 on: Oct 05, 2017, 03:06PM »

Nothing has changed. As you well know, they've never denied the existence of Islamic terrorism, and they still don't.

If you don't care if what you say is true, why post? What good do you think you're doing?



That's not true. They have always played down the Islamic aspect, since they consider Muslims to be a peaceful religion.
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« Reply #130 on: Oct 05, 2017, 03:26PM »

That doesn't seem unreasonable.  If you grant the premise that automatic weapons should be controlled, then it's hard to argue that workarounds that do the same thing should not.  I'm one who often argues against controls, for various reasons, but this isn't one I would defend.  

Apparently even the NRA is going along with this.
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« Reply #131 on: Oct 05, 2017, 03:27PM »

Here is a pretty good explanation of how they work along with a video of a young women using one farther down the page.  Looks like any adult of average strength should be able to operate one.  https://lifehacker.com/what-is-a-bump-stock-and-why-is-it-so-dangerous-1819180018

Watching the life fire demonstrations, it's obvious that the bump stock affects accuracy; the rifle is constantly bouncing around.

This would create a random fire pattern in a large crowd 400 feet away.

I still can't see any real use for these; except maybe to feel like Rambo and spend a lot on ammo.
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« Reply #132 on: Oct 05, 2017, 03:44PM »

That's not true. They have always played down the Islamic aspect, since they consider Muslims to be a peaceful religion.


Now you're crawfishing again. Here's what you said:

Quote
The FBI is still the Obama FBI, which always denied there was any kind of Islamic terror

That's a simple lie. The FBI has long acknowledged the existence of Islamic terrorism.

In your usual manner, you're now trying to paper over the first lie by telling a slightly more subtle lie. Now it's: "They have always played down the Islamic aspect, since they consider Muslims to be a peaceful religion."

That doesn't even start to make sense. There are 35,000 employees at the FBI. Are you claiming that every one of them. or nearly all of them, regard Islam as a peaceful religion? If so, what's your evidence for believing that?

It's true that the FBI doesn't rush out and label any attack by an Arabic or Persian person as 'Islamic terrorism', because they're law enforcement officers and deal with evidence. That's the same reason police don't tell the press after a shooting, "I bet the husband did it."

They also take the commonsense view that it makes sense to blame the murderer and his co-conspirators for a heinous crime, and not blame his co-religionists who are not terrorists.

Moreover, can you give examples where the FBI investigated an Islamic terror attack and concluded that it wasn't Islam-related?

Didn't think so.
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« Reply #133 on: Oct 05, 2017, 03:45PM »

That's not true. They have always played down the Islamic aspect, since they consider Muslims to be a peaceful religion.


Okay, so against my better judgement I'm going to reply to this. Throughout the Bush and Obama administrations there existed a strategic policy, supported by everyone in a position to understand the political realities of the world, not to publicly use the phrase "radical islamic terrorism" or the like in public pronouncements. This was for the seemingly simple-to-understand reason that in the Islamic world where 90-whatever percent of people ARE peaceful, conflating all of Islam with terrorism plays directly into the narrative of the terrorists (that the west wants to destroy Islam) and makes it much more difficult for politicians and religious leaders who oppose the terrorists to work with the west when the west is seen to be attacking their religion.

The current cynical republican strategy of pretending not to understand this policy -  for the cheap and counter-productive political gain they garner with people like yourself - does not make it true that the Bush/Obama administrations and the FBI are pro-terrorist. That amounts to one of the stupidest concepts in public discourse today. And that is saying something. I suppose idiocy is the new normal.

If every time some as***** like Timmy McVeigh or Dylann Roof committed acts of terrorism, people in the muslim world went off on the evils of Christianity, you would probably not like it much either. The situations are not identical but the analogy explains the policy. Not that I expect you'll even try to understand it. Sad. (What is the opposite of LOL? COL?)
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« Reply #134 on: Oct 05, 2017, 03:59PM »

Watching the life fire demonstrations, it's obvious that the bump stock affects accuracy; the rifle is constantly bouncing around.
 
This would create a random fire pattern in a large crowd 400 feet away.

With a true fully automatic that's going on in the bolt-carrier system instead. IOW it's very similar to conventional full auto. Recoil is more of an issue, but it's still more or less the same thing.
 
It's not generally a tactically effective mode of fire for anything but some kind of crowd, to use a kind of shotgun pseudo-aiming technique ("aim" over there and hope you hit something--often called "panic fire"), or as suppressive fire. That's why the M16 has used a three round burst fire mode instead of full auto since the '80s.
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« Reply #135 on: Oct 05, 2017, 04:12PM »

Okay, so against my better judgement I'm going to reply to this. Throughout the Bush and Obama administrations there existed a strategic policy, supported by everyone in a position to understand the political realities of the world, not to publicly use the phrase "radical islamic terrorism" or the like in public pronouncements. This was for the seemingly simple-to-understand reason that in the Islamic world where 90-whatever percent of people ARE peaceful, conflating all of Islam with terrorism plays directly into the narrative of the terrorists (that the west wants to destroy Islam) and makes it much more difficult for politicians and religious leaders who oppose the terrorists to work with the west when the west is seen to be attacking their religion.

The current cynical republican strategy of pretending not to understand this policy -  for the cheap and counter-productive political gain they garner with people like yourself - does not make it true that the Bush/Obama administrations and the FBI are pro-terrorist. That amounts to one of the stupidest concepts in public discourse today. And that is saying something. I suppose idiocy is the new normal.

If every time some as***** like Timmy McVeigh or Dylann Roof committed acts of terrorism, people in the muslim world went off on the evils of Christianity, you would probably not like it much either. The situations are not identical but the analogy explains the policy. Not that I expect you'll even try to understand it. Sad. (What is the opposite of LOL? COL?)

I don't think that what I said was supposed to mean that they are "pro terrorists", but shy of simply putting the blame where blame lies.

You can't deny however, that those that are reluctant to use the term "Islamic terrorists" have no problem claiming other groups are terrorists, like the extreme-right or alt-right. You mentioned Tim McVeigh, and president Clinton tried to paint Rush Limbaugh for being partially responsible. Were you upset when that happened? The media tried to paint Sarah Palin with the Gabby shooting. So, there's a lot of blame to go around here, as far as using terminology is concerned. Look at one of the latest Terrorist lists compiled by the last administration, you'll get my drift.

So, the point I was trying to make earlier, way earlier, was that in the investigation, if there were questions of this guy being recruited by ISIS, the FBI has a reputation of soft pedaling that rhetoric down, just as you suggested was the policy of the Obama administration.

That was nothing more than pure speculation yesterday when there were a whole of less facts than we know today.

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« Reply #136 on: Oct 05, 2017, 04:27PM »

Now you're crawfishing again. Here's what you said:

That's a simple lie. The FBI has long acknowledged the existence of Islamic terrorism.

In your usual manner, you're now trying to paper over the first lie by telling a slightly more subtle lie. Now it's: "They have always played down the Islamic aspect, since they consider Muslims to be a peaceful religion."

That doesn't even start to make sense. There are 35,000 employees at the FBI. Are you claiming that every one of them. or nearly all of them, regard Islam as a peaceful religion? If so, what's your evidence for believing that?

It's true that the FBI doesn't rush out and label any attack by an Arabic or Persian person as 'Islamic terrorism', because they're law enforcement officers and deal with evidence. That's the same reason police don't tell the press after a shooting, "I bet the husband did it."

They also take the commonsense view that it makes sense to blame the murderer and his co-conspirators for a heinous crime, and not blame his co-religionists who are not terrorists.

Moreover, can you give examples where the FBI investigated an Islamic terror attack and concluded that it wasn't Islam-related?

Didn't think so.


No, they are always slow, and still shy away from using that term.

1 - NSA director McMaster:

"NatSec Advisor H.R. McMaster is purging anyone who mentions Obama holdovers or criticizes Islam. McMaster refuses to use the term ‘Islamic terrorism’ and believes jihadists are perverting Islam." - Holdover from the Obama administration

2 - Yet, those who object to using the term "islamic terrorism":
  "Will Donald Trump Ever Say the Words ‘White Supremacist Terrorism’?"
   "There’s a growing deadly threat in America but Donald Trump refuses to call it by its name: white supremacist terrorism."


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« Reply #137 on: Oct 05, 2017, 04:42PM »

We've had White Supremacist Terrorism almost since the founding of this nation.  Latest vestiges are the Ku Klux Klan and American Nazi Party.  Lynchings are a form of terrorism and cross burning is a form of terrorism.

We don't paint all Whites as Supremacists.  We should not paint all Muslims as terrorists.  For that matter, we should not paint all demonstrators for any point of view as terrorists.

But there are extemists on all sides.  We should not condone that activity from anybody.
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« Reply #138 on: Oct 05, 2017, 05:31PM »


With a true fully automatic that's going on in the bolt-carrier system instead. IOW it's very similar to conventional full auto. Recoil is more of an issue, but it's still more or less the same thing.
 
It's not generally a tactically effective mode of fire for anything but some kind of crowd, to use a kind of shotgun pseudo-aiming technique ("aim" over there and hope you hit something--often called "panic fire"), or as suppressive fire. That's why the M16 has used a three round burst fire mode instead of full auto since the '80s.

I think the high casualty count ( primarily speaking of wounded ) can be somewhat due to pass through, ricochet and fragmentation. Considering the venue there should be an appreciable numbers associated with such.
 
I trust forensics will clarify.
 
Has there been an actual round count ( acoustics, probably a little early on that ) from expended brass?
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« Reply #139 on: Oct 05, 2017, 05:37PM »

...
 
Has there been an actual round count ( acoustics, probably a little early on that ) from expended brass?


I don't think so.  But I'm sure they are working on it, as well as checking all the weapons found for which had been fired.  Maybe also for fingerprints.

It's really too early in the investigation to draw any conclusions.  As they often say, "all options are on the table".
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« Reply #140 on: Oct 05, 2017, 06:25PM »

I don't think that what I said was supposed to mean that they are "pro terrorists", but shy of simply putting the blame where blame lies

Holy crap!

You originally said that they  "always denied there was any kind of Islamic terror." [emphasis added]

That's a pretty damned plain statement, and you used that lie to support the idea that the FBI might try to hide a terrorist plot.

Now you're backpedaling all the way to your newest statement. Hint: If you don't lie, you don't have to be a phony and backpedal out of confident statements you made earlier.

If they're 'shy of putting the blame where it lies', show me the cases of Islamic terror that were ultimately shown to be Muslim-related but that the FBI finally attributed to something else.

You can't do it, because it's not true.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Boy_Who_Cried_Wolf
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« Reply #141 on: Oct 05, 2017, 06:38PM »

The FBI is still the Obama FBI, which always denied there was any kind of Islamic terror, as they always tried to paint a different picture. So, it’s not surprising that less than 12 hours in, with no intel, said with confidence, this was not an ISIS attack, even though, after more than a year, still can’t find evidence that there was Russian collusion with Trump.

This is hilarious. No evidence of Russian collusion?

DJT, Jr. has essentially admitted collusion. The emails show plainly that the campaign was looking for dirt on Hillary from the Russians (the fact that they didn't get what they were looking for doesn't disprove the intent to collude). The emails also show that the Russian arranging the meeting represented them as reflecting Russia's interest in electing Trump.

Those emails didn't come from some nefarious leak or the dreaded MSM, but from DJT, Jr. himself. He has admitted to at least attempting to get Russian help with the campaign, which is collusion.

Maybe you could define 'collusion' as excluding letting the Russians help Trump get elected by giving them dirt on Hillary.

Collusion isn't even questioned at this point. It's admitted and conceded.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Boy_Who_Cried_Wolf
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« Reply #142 on: Oct 05, 2017, 06:50PM »

I don't think that what I said was supposed to mean that they are "pro terrorists", but shy of simply putting the blame where blame lies.

You can't deny however, that those that are reluctant to use the term "Islamic terrorists" have no problem claiming other groups are terrorists, like the extreme-right or alt-right. You mentioned Tim McVeigh, and president Clinton tried to paint Rush Limbaugh for being partially responsible. Were you upset when that happened? The media tried to paint Sarah Palin with the Gabby shooting. So, there's a lot of blame to go around here, as far as using terminology is concerned. Look at one of the latest Terrorist lists compiled by the last administration, you'll get my drift.

So, the point I was trying to make earlier, way earlier, was that in the investigation, if there were questions of this guy being recruited by ISIS, the FBI has a reputation of soft pedaling that rhetoric down, just as you suggested was the policy of the Obama administration.

That was nothing more than pure speculation yesterday when there were a whole of less facts than we know today.



Nothing you've said here indicates that you understand the policy that has existed since Bush the younger. Does calling out the "extreme right" in public somehow reduce the FBI's ability to thwart them as it does in the muslim world? The situations are not equivalent. Rush Limburger, Sarah Palin or any others of OUR countrymen who use violent rhetoric should be castigated for it. If we want the "peaceful" muslims in THEIR countries to help thwart the extremists, it behooves us to avoid disparaging their religion. It's just not that complicated.  Don't know In international diplomacy as in many other areas; words matter.

The policy was not "soft pedaling" the connections between ISIS and terrorist acts. It was simply not using words that sound like Islam=terrorism. So that the terrorists could not use those words for their own benefit. You seem to see political-correctness run amok everywhere you look. This was/is a policy based on very practical foreign policy and anti-terrorist goals, not some weird, lefty Islamophilia.


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« Reply #143 on: Oct 05, 2017, 07:11PM »

This is how you learn untruths from being untruthful:

DDickerson:
Quote
So, it’s not surprising that less than 12 hours in, with no intel, said with confidence, this was not an ISIS attack,

Did they say that, "with confidence"? No, they said they found 'no links' with ISIS. See the difference? They're describing the evidence they've turned up so far. So what you said was untrue, not that you care.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Boy_Who_Cried_Wolf
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« Reply #144 on: Oct 06, 2017, 05:29AM »



I still can't see any real use for these; except maybe to feel like Rambo and spend a lot on ammo.

Okay, I know I'm a broken record on this issue, but there's a good bit of rhetoric out there on not needing various things, and that's the wrong direction.

In a totalitarian society an individual is only allowed to have property or rights that he can prove he needs.

In a free society, the government is only allowed to take away property or rights that they prove is sufficiently harmful overall.

I think both approaches end up banning the bump stock, full auto weapons, grenade launchers, etc.  But the logic is totally different, and that difference is important.

I see a lot of facebook comments saying nobody needs a bump stock, so we should ban them.  That is so misguided it's scary.  They should be saying the risk of these outweighs the usefulness to such a degree that it justifies banning them. 
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« Reply #145 on: Oct 06, 2017, 05:38AM »

This is how you learn untruths from being untruthful:

DDickerson:
Did they say that, "with confidence"? No, they said they found 'no links' with ISIS. See the difference? They're describing the evidence they've turned up so far. So what you said was untrue, not that you care.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Boy_Who_Cried_Wolf

No, they said this wasn't associated with ISIS, then later they 'toned' it down a bit. Now, the sheriff is still thinking accomplices.

They said they have not found any links, which was their basis for their conclusions, but, this shooter has no digital footprint anywhere in social media to be found (yet), so they are still clueless as to his motivations.

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« Reply #146 on: Oct 06, 2017, 05:43AM »

That's not true. They have always played down the Islamic aspect, since they consider Muslims to be a peaceful religion.
Dusty, why do you so desperately want this horrible event to be an Islamic attack?
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« Reply #147 on: Oct 06, 2017, 05:50AM »

I see a lot of facebook comments saying nobody needs a bump stock, so we should ban them.  That is so misguided it's scary.  They should be saying the risk of these outweighs the usefulness to such a degree that it justifies banning them. 
It won't really make a difference what they do or why they do it.  I understand your concern for their motives, there are good motives and bad motives that can achieve the same immediate goal, but the good motives are the ones to practice.

I remember a couple of people I worked with back in the early 80s that bought AR15s and figured out how to 'automate' them.  They merely held them off their shoulders by an inch or two and stuck some foam rubber between their finger and the front of the trigger guard.  They didn't get full M16 speed, but they got rapid fire and sore arms.
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« Reply #148 on: Oct 06, 2017, 07:18AM »

Dusty, why do you so desperately want this horrible event to be an Islamic attack?

I only hope that the truth comes out. Nothing more. Hopefully, that's what we all want. Right?
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« Reply #149 on: Oct 06, 2017, 07:44AM »

I only hope that the truth comes out. Nothing more. Hopefully, that's what we all want. Right?

Not very damn likely.
 
Affirmation is far more important to many, and not only Deplorables.
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« Reply #150 on: Oct 06, 2017, 10:43AM »

Okay, I know I'm a broken record on this issue, but there's a good bit of rhetoric out there on not needing various things, and that's the wrong direction.

In a totalitarian society an individual is only allowed to have property or rights that he can prove he needs.

In a free society, the government is only allowed to take away property or rights that they prove is sufficiently harmful overall.

I think both approaches end up banning the bump stock, full auto weapons, grenade launchers
Both approaches are valid and needed. In this case, something has obvious harm. Does it have any benefit? If not, why is it still legal?

You need to question BOTH in a pro vs con understanding.

Like the question of military styled rifles. Why? Oh so that men with small penises have something to play with in their "me" time. So they're legal now...
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« Reply #151 on: Oct 06, 2017, 11:26AM »

Both approaches are valid and needed.

I don't see how the two can be reconciled.  They appear to be orthogonal.


Either we only have rights and property we can prove we need, all else are denied by the states; or we are allowed all rights and privileges that the state has not proven harmful. 

Our country is based on the latter, is it not? 
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« Reply #152 on: Oct 06, 2017, 11:27AM »

The reality of the second amendment debate is that it attempts to make something over nothing.

The second amendment was one of the least debated amendments and remains one of the least judicially interpreted ones. The reason is simple: at writing, the founded distrusted standing armies with good reason. A militia just beat the strongest army on the globe so they wanted that approach to continue. The second amendment secured that.

Fast forward 150 years and we find that militias don't work over the long run, and have had de facto standing armies ever since.

At that time, the second amendment lost any real relevance.


The issue today is that the NRA has gone from an organization made of and for sport gun users to a mouthpiece for the gun industry.  They have set on an approach to sell as many guns and possible and to do that, they need to normalize them as much as possible. To that end, they deploy fear and distrust of everyone-government, fellow people- and sell a message that only you can protect you. So get a gun and stay alive. And the legally justify this they ally tighty with the Republican Party and regularly spout abuses of the second amendment even their own people called utterly ridiculous a few decades ago.

Constitutional rights don't protect bs like target shooting any more than they protect practicing knife throwing or sword juggling.
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« Reply #153 on: Oct 06, 2017, 11:29AM »

So, Tim, you are saying the two sides are - "That which is not explicitly stated as legal is illegal", and "That which is not explicitly states as illegal is legal"
Am I reading you correctly?
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« Reply #154 on: Oct 06, 2017, 11:33AM »

I don't see how the two can be reconciled.  They appear to be orthogonal.
Only if you consider it all or nothing, and such reasoning does not survive reality anyhow.


Quote
Our country is based on the latter, is it not? 
Our country was based on the notion that government was concerned with and participated in by a minority of rich white men. Hence why the only federal election that even landowning men could vote is was the house.

A board policy of freedom isn't exactly a strong underpinning by those who owned other people and allowed their women no voice.

Reality is that they contradicted or compromised their principles in numerous ways from the very beginning. There one way or the other, but a murky middle grounded often decided on money and popular opinion.
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« Reply #155 on: Oct 06, 2017, 11:39AM »

No, they said this wasn't associated with ISIS, then later they 'toned' it down a bit. Now, the sheriff is still thinking accomplices.


Can you show where the FBI said 'confidently' (as you put it) that there was no ISIS connection. Every statement I've read used the term 'we have found no evidence' or 'we have found no links', etc. Here's an actual quote:

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/10/02/554976369/section-of-las-vegas-strip-is-closed-after-music-festival-shooting

Quote
Responding to reports by the ISIS-associated news agency Amaq that the terrorist group had claimed responsibility for the attack — and that Paddock had converted to Islam — FBI Las Vegas Special Agent in Charge Aaron Rouse said on Monday that the agency has "determined, to this point, no connection with an international terrorist group."

Note the disclaimer: "to this point."

DDickerson:
Quote
They said they have not found any links, which was their basis for their conclusions, but, this shooter has no digital footprint anywhere in social media to be found (yet), so they are still clueless as to his motivations.

First of all, they don't even claim to have drawn any 'conclusions', so you're wrong. I'm not particularly troubled by his lack of 'social media footprint'. I know a lot of people that age, many of them as customers, and I'd say maybe half of them don't do Facebook, and few of them use Twitter. When the FBI says they haven't found any links "to this point" it means precisely that. His lack of a 'footprint' does not contradict that. Did you think the FBI didn't look for mob links, terrorist links, etc. before the advent of social media? Widespread use of social media is relatively new, but law enforcement agencies have used that same language for many years.

This is a baffling case. If there turn out to be accomplices, or an ISIS connection, or involvement of the girlfriend, I wouldn't be at all surprised.

But it's absurd to pretend the FBI covers up Islamic involvement in terror attacks, or deny that they exist. You've failed to give even one good example where the final conclusions of the FBI denied apparent Islamic involvement with any attack.
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« Reply #156 on: Oct 06, 2017, 11:41AM »

I only hope that the truth comes out. Nothing more. Hopefully, that's what we all want. Right?

It isn't even what you want.
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« Reply #157 on: Oct 06, 2017, 11:45AM »

Both approaches are valid and needed. In this case, something has obvious harm. Does it have any benefit? If not, why is it still legal?
 
You need to question BOTH in a pro vs con understanding.
 
Like the question of military styled rifles. Why? Oh so that men with small penises have something to play with in their "me" time. So they're legal now...
I don't see how the two can be reconciled.  They appear to be orthogonal.
 
Either we only have rights and property we can prove we need, all else are denied by the states; or we are allowed all rights and privileges that the state has not proven harmful. 
 
Our country is based on the latter, is it not?

I have to agree mostly with Bob on this (although I also have to wonder about the obsession with phalli and obviously mis-calibrated rulers). When something is harmful it changes the free society private property standards. This is very much the same kind of limitation to personal freedoms as applies to the commons in general. It's not so simple as if it can cause harm need and/or benefit is required, but the basic principle is on target as long as the bigger picture isn't ignored--as long as the cost-benefit analysis is honest and informed, and balanced by appropriate oversight ... not that this is an easy formula to nail down, particularly for such a highly politicized and ... intemperately debated issue.
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« Reply #158 on: Oct 06, 2017, 11:59AM »

I don't see how the two can be reconciled.  They appear to be orthogonal.
 
Either we only have rights and property we can prove we need, all else are denied by the states; or we are allowed all rights and privileges that the state has not proven harmful. 
 
Our country is based on the latter, is it not?
I have to agree mostly with Bob on this (although I also have to wonder about the obsession with phalli and obviously mis-calibrated rulers). When something is harmful it changes the free society private property standards. This is very much the same kind of limitation to personal freedoms as applies to the commons in general.

Well, maybe I stated it badly.

The way I see it, cost benefit analysis if it shows harm must limit personal freedom.  I'm fine with that, at least in principle - none of us live alone on a desert island.  Absent that analysis, everything is legal.

I am seeing a contrast with the "but you don't need XXX"  approach. That seems to imply nothing is legal unless you can prove it should be. 

The burden of proof should be on the state to show harm, rather than on the individual to show need. 
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« Reply #159 on: Oct 06, 2017, 12:05PM »



At that time, the second amendment lost any real relevance.



I'm not a second amendment scholar and don't pretend to know all the reasons.  Or much care.

But it seems to me another concept has been inserted that confuses the issue.

US courts have consistently upheld the right to exercise self defense, have they not? Even in some rather dubious circumstances.   That would seem to generate gun ownership as an implied secondary right, because clearly disabled or small or female people who would have no other option can't be denied the right to self defense.

We take that "right" for granted in the US but it is by no means universal across the world. 
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« Reply #160 on: Oct 06, 2017, 12:08PM »

Courts established that fully automatic weapons were not legal for private ownership in the 1930s.

The "Bump Stock" and other modifications that make a non-automatic weapon act like an automatic weapon are basically trying to skirt the law.

If it walks like a duck ...

These things make AR-15s into machine guns.  Illegal.
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« Reply #161 on: Oct 06, 2017, 12:25PM »

Tim, I do get what you're saying:

There's a difference between, "You can't have this because you don't need it", which is totalitarian, and "You can't have this because there's a public interest that is more compelling than the particular freedom being allowed."

I might suggest, though, that "What do people need this for?" is half the equation, even in the second case. If you're trying to do a cost benefit analysis, you have to calculate the personal benefit as well as the public cost.

Additionally, in the particular case of gun law this has been the prevailing counter-argument--that seemingly excessive weapons have legitimate benefits to hunters, target shooters, and DGU. It's easier to arrive at a consensus if some of these weapons can be shown to have no primary use other than allowing a poor marksman to kill a lot of people at once.
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« Reply #162 on: Oct 06, 2017, 12:33PM »

I don't think that 'need' is valid condition for ownership.

How many 'need' all the trombones you own?

How would you go about proving?
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« Reply #163 on: Oct 06, 2017, 01:54PM »

Well, maybe I stated it badly.
 
The way I see it, cost benefit analysis if it shows harm must limit personal freedom.  I'm fine with that, at least in principle - none of us live alone on a desert island.  Absent that analysis, everything is legal.
 
I am seeing a contrast with the "but you don't need XXX"  approach. That seems to imply nothing is legal unless you can prove it should be. 
 
The burden of proof should be on the state to show harm, rather than on the individual to show need.

Ah ... yeah, no argument with that.
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« Reply #164 on: Oct 06, 2017, 02:01PM »

Courts established that fully automatic weapons were not legal for private ownership in the 1930s.
 
The "Bump Stock" and other modifications that make a non-automatic weapon act like an automatic weapon are basically trying to skirt the law.
 
If it walks like a duck ...
 
These things make AR-15s into machine guns.  Illegal.

That certainly does seem a hard position to argue against anyway.
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« Reply #165 on: Oct 06, 2017, 02:04PM »

I don't think that 'need' is valid condition for ownership.

That's because you choose to only see or hear the parts of the argument that don't pose real problems for your personal view, so it's never challenged with troublesome issues like facts or actual reasoning and such (which is a pretty good litmus for the level of one's intellectual integrity and honesty).
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« Reply #166 on: Oct 06, 2017, 02:20PM »

Courts established that fully automatic weapons were not legal for private ownership in the 1930s.

The "Bump Stock" and other modifications that make a non-automatic weapon act like an automatic weapon are basically trying to skirt the law.

If it walks like a duck ...

These things make AR-15s into machine guns.  Illegal.

I believe the particular legalistic hair here being split has to do with a “single press of the trigger” causing multiple shots to be fired. A bump stock, or its field-expedient imitators, merely enables rapidity of multiple trigger pulls.

(If one were to flutter-tongue a single pitch, is that one note, or many? Tremolo written for strings can look like one note with bars across the stem.)
 
This is why the ATF cannot regulate bump stocks away. The legislature has this ball in their court, and needs to fine-tune the letter of the law to match its spirit.
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« Reply #167 on: Oct 06, 2017, 04:01PM »

I don't think that 'need' is valid condition for ownership.

How many 'need' all the trombones you own?

How would you go about proving?

I think that's Tim's point, and no reasonable person would disagree with it. It's not our job to prove to the state that we need something.

When something has a general social impact, your 'need' becomes an issue because it's weighed against the public interest. If you're trying to divert groundwater, and there are people downstream from you, it's reasonable to ask what your need is, in order to create a fair balance.
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« Reply #168 on: Oct 06, 2017, 05:27PM »


When something has a general social impact, your 'need' becomes an issue because it's weighed against the public interest. If you're trying to divert groundwater, and there are people downstream from you, it's reasonable to ask what your need is, in order to create a fair balance.

Good analogy.

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« Reply #169 on: Oct 06, 2017, 06:10PM »

I'm not a second amendment scholar and don't pretend to know all the reasons.  Or much care.

But it seems to me another concept has been inserted that confuses the issue.

US courts have consistently upheld the right to exercise self defense, have they not? Even in some rather dubious circumstances.   That would seem to generate gun ownership as an implied secondary right, because clearly disabled or small or female people who would have no other option can't be denied the right to self defense.

We take that "right" for granted in the US but it is by no means universal across the world. 
Actually the biggest confusion there is recent and written directly by NRA lobbyists. Self defense has been around yes, but with strong caveats. Prior to the NRA's initial legislation in FL that they then pushed to other states, there was a duty to retreat first. If you weren't trying to get away you couldn't claim defense.

Comes back to the NRA and normalizing owning and using guns where we get the stand you ground type, no retreat self defense bs.

Or bs laws like in Texas where a bystander can stop a commission of a crime with a gun legally. Even minor ones. Thus allowing the gun owner bystander more individual power than the entire judiciary.
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« Reply #170 on: Oct 06, 2017, 06:19PM »

Self defence usually conveys the right to use as much force as is reasonable in the circumstances.

Who was the guy on the NY subway who shot and killed a fellow threatening him with a screwdriver?

Edited to add: Bernard Goetz shot and killed 4 would be muggers. 1984.

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« Reply #171 on: Oct 06, 2017, 06:20PM »

If the NRA has its way, the entire USA society will evolve into episodes of Gunsmoke. I am sure they'd have no problem with guns being allowed ANYWHERE, included bars.

This country is going crazy.
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« Reply #172 on: Oct 06, 2017, 06:22PM »

If the NRA has its way, the entire USA society will evolve into episodes of Gunsmoke. I am sure they'd have no problem with guns being allowed ANYWHERE, included bars.

This country is going crazy.
Bars, churches, preschools, school campuses... some of the NRA stronghold states recently passed laws to allow these.
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