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Author Topic: Conn 60H  (Read 3405 times)
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Burgerbob

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« Reply #40 on: Oct 05, 2017, 07:46PM »

Got the horn back from John today...

Now with a press fit 50 leadpipe!

It plays a lot better :)
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Bach 50B, ditto
Bach 50B2, ditto
Conn 60H, ditto
Bach 42B, Denis Wick 3AL
Bach 42BG, ditto
Conn 6H, NY Bach 7
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savio

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« Reply #41 on: Oct 05, 2017, 11:21PM »

How did it go with the old leadpipe? Is it broken? Does it play more like a bach?

Leif
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Bass Trombone - Conn, Holton
Burgerbob

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« Reply #42 on: Oct 05, 2017, 11:38PM »

Old leadpipe lost a good inch off the top trying to get it out. The rest is in good shape! The slide was rebuilt and John took off the J bend to take out the dings. Apparently the guys at Elkhart left some space in the build!

As for playing like a Bach? I don't think so, but then again I only own a couple. The stock Bach leadpipe that I have in it now is much the same thickness, and maybe a little longer than the previous Conn leadpipe. It definitely only works up to a certain amount of air and then doesn't respond in the same way, which is to be expected.

The horn before was ok. Not a bad instrument. But now it might actually be playable to a higher level. I'll get plenty of time on it in the next few weeks.
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Brasslab 50T3, Greg Glack 1G .312 #2
Bach 50B, ditto
Bach 50B2, ditto
Conn 60H, ditto
Bach 42B, Denis Wick 3AL
Bach 42BG, ditto
Conn 6H, NY Bach 7
Yamaha YEP-842S, Schilke 53/59
Yamaha YBH-301MS, Greg Black NY 1.25
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« Reply #43 on: Oct 06, 2017, 01:06AM »

Old leadpipe lost a good inch off the top trying to get it out. The rest is in good shape! The slide was rebuilt and John took off the J bend to take out the dings. Apparently the guys at Elkhart left some space in the build!

As for playing like a Bach? I don't think so, but then again I only own a couple. The stock Bach leadpipe that I have in it now is much the same thickness, and maybe a little longer than the previous Conn leadpipe. It definitely only works up to a certain amount of air and then doesn't respond in the same way, which is to be expected.

The horn before was ok. Not a bad instrument. But now it might actually be playable to a higher level. I'll get plenty of time on it in the next few weeks.

What do you think is wrong with space in joints ?

Chris Stearn
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Burgerbob

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« Reply #44 on: Oct 06, 2017, 01:19AM »

What do you think is wrong with space in joints ?

Chris Stearn

Only something John said.  Don't know
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Brasslab 50T3, Greg Glack 1G .312 #2
Bach 50B, ditto
Bach 50B2, ditto
Conn 60H, ditto
Bach 42B, Denis Wick 3AL
Bach 42BG, ditto
Conn 6H, NY Bach 7
Yamaha YEP-842S, Schilke 53/59
Yamaha YBH-301MS, Greg Black NY 1.25
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« Reply #45 on: Oct 06, 2017, 12:03PM »

Mick Rath would probably disagree..... I remember asking him when I started visiting the factory in the early 2000's if he mated all tubes so there was no gap and he just smiled and said he had tried that.... as an apprentice years before, and life was not that simple. I have since found gaps in lots of Elkhart Conns, and New York Bachs.... and Holtons....
In building up frankenbones a gap between a couple of tubes has been the answer to all sorts of problems. John may well have improved your trombone. Just saying that building trombones is a whole other thing.

Chris Stearn
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jimkinkella
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« Reply #46 on: Oct 06, 2017, 02:41PM »

Chris, curious what issues what may be helped by introducing certain gaps?
I can see fixing intonation, or leaving a gap where necessary to allow pieces to sit together without tension, but I'm curious if there are any acoustic  differences / improvements that may have been observed by "introducing" one.
Fwiw I've watched John heat up plenty of parts that just end up "pinging" apart because they were just squeezed together at the factory.
I trust John's distrust of the factories, but also understand there are a few that actually do well.
Appreciate your insight
Thanks
Jim
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« Reply #47 on: Oct 07, 2017, 12:35AM »

Chris, curious what issues what may be helped by introducing certain gaps?
I can see fixing intonation, or leaving a gap where necessary to allow pieces to sit together without tension, but I'm curious if there are any acoustic  differences / improvements that may have been observed by "introducing" one.
Fwiw I've watched John heat up plenty of parts that just end up "pinging" apart because they were just squeezed together at the factory.
I trust John's distrust of the factories, but also understand there are a few that actually do well.
Appreciate your insight
Thanks
Jim

When I am building up a trombone there are some places where I avoid gaps. . Some places where I build in gaps. Things you learn over time. A bit like playing.

Chris Stearn
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bonesmarsh
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« Reply #48 on: Oct 07, 2017, 05:15AM »

In defense of Chris, who needs no defense--

Every single trombone I have ever seen has been hollow in the center, with a small gap at one end, and a large gap at the end of the bell that goes on to infinity and is infinitely large.

If you want a better horn I was always taught to apply my embouchre, and mouthpiece, to the smaller gap, and practice hard, repeatedly, until the sound coming out of the infinitely large gap was improved.
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Burgerbob

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« Reply #49 on: Oct 07, 2017, 11:27AM »

In defense of Chris, who needs no defense--

Every single trombone I have ever seen has been hollow in the center, with a small gap at one end, and a large gap at the end of the bell that goes on to infinity and is infinitely large.

If you want a better horn I was always taught to apply my embouchre, and mouthpiece, to the smaller gap, and practice hard, repeatedly, until the sound coming out of the infinitely large gap was improved.

Such wisdom.
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Brasslab 50T3, Greg Glack 1G .312 #2
Bach 50B, ditto
Bach 50B2, ditto
Conn 60H, ditto
Bach 42B, Denis Wick 3AL
Bach 42BG, ditto
Conn 6H, NY Bach 7
Yamaha YEP-842S, Schilke 53/59
Yamaha YBH-301MS, Greg Black NY 1.25
bigbassbone1

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« Reply #50 on: Oct 15, 2017, 04:28PM »

So burgerbob was kind enough to let me have a quick go of his 60h while I was over to borrow some stuff today.

I had never played a 60h before so was pretty keen. Whilst I only had a short go on it, I immediately liked it a lot more than my 70h back home. The sound was much broader and it was easier to move around on the 60h than my 70h. I really enjoyed the sound I got on between piano and mezzo forte.

I found that slurs were much harder to make clean than on my usual bach 50. It was easy to catch harmonics that were in between slurs, which I didn't like. I also found it much harder to find the "center" of the pitch on the 60h than on my bach.

I also did not like the valve on the 60h. The valve register felt similar as when I play on my 70h. Hard work and difficult to keep the sound even.

The 60h was a lot of fun to play. I think if I owned one I could get used to some of the quirks and really enjoy playing it in certain settings. Whilst I only played on it briefly, I did get the sense that it was a better instrument than my 70h in many ways. I wish I had had the opportunity to try it with the original 60h leadpipe. As burgerbob has mentioned here, he has a bach pipe in it now, so I don't know how much influence that has over the instrument than when it had the original pipe. Still didn't play or sound like a bach though!

Thanks burgerbob! You sounded awesome on it!
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Burgerbob

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« Reply #51 on: Oct 15, 2017, 06:30PM »

^He sounded great on it too.

Here's an update! I've been playing the horn alongside my Bach/Edwards every day in practice, to really figure out how it works.

Compared to before:

The horn now plays with easier slots (as in, any slots). There is so much more core to the sound, all the way through the range. It feels so resonant behind the bell, and really fills up the spaces I've played it in. The slide is easier to use, with better action.

Compared to my Bach:

It's harder to play, for sure. In some ways, it's easier- the horn takes less air to play, technically, but that's a trade off. The flexibility especially is more difficult. The slots on the 60H are very unforgiving. If you play a note in the wrong position and buzz the right one, no dice! Better luck next time! This isn't really a bad thing, just a different approach. It's more difficult, in many categories, but not by a large amount- the 60H is still a viable instrument and is not hard to play. The sound remains very similar throughout dynamics, compared to the Bach, which gets an edge progressively as you put on the gas. The 60H flares suddenly, though this point is much more difficult to get to than the Bach. The Conn likes to play in the middle of the dynamic range. The valve range is definitely harder, but more different than hard- I can still pop out the low Cs quite easily, and that range sounds great. The upper range is different... I wouldn't call it more difficult, but a different sound than I get on the Bach.

Please note that I'm playing this with my big 'ol GB 1G, not anything smaller. It plays and sounds differently with my George Roberts mouthpiece (yes, I own one) but the trade off is a little too extreme for me.

I'm pretty happy with this horn, and can't wait until I get a situation to try it in.
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Brasslab 50T3, Greg Glack 1G .312 #2
Bach 50B, ditto
Bach 50B2, ditto
Conn 60H, ditto
Bach 42B, Denis Wick 3AL
Bach 42BG, ditto
Conn 6H, NY Bach 7
Yamaha YEP-842S, Schilke 53/59
Yamaha YBH-301MS, Greg Black NY 1.25
dj kennedy

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« Reply #52 on: Oct 16, 2017, 06:19AM »

 Pant Pant Pant Pant Pant Pant

You say that there is some wear on the valve, if this is lateral wear i.e. with the valve moving along the axis of the spindle, a simple solution is to drill a small hole in the centre of the removable cap and then thread it to accept a needle point screw. This can then be adjusted to prevent any valve slap and tightened if any more wear occurs, probably in about another 50 years. This technique solved a problem on the worn Holton valves on my TR 181-based bass.

Cheers

Stewbones
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LUCKY  LUCKY LUCKY  !!!!!!!!!!
dj kennedy

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« Reply #53 on: Oct 16, 2017, 06:47AM »

used   maybe school  horn  mpc w  bent out of round  shank  --high school kid 00  gee this doesnt fit  ????
 maybe if i  jam it in tighter  !!!!!!!! Amazed Amazed Amazed Amazed Amazed Amazed
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usually its worry  about the  wear on the inners  ----okokok i did get a  monstrously  way heavier than usual   72h ????????
---------old  thinny  elkhart 88h    VS   modern 88ho    or 42b  or  trendy  dark edwards  --flexi  elkhart 8h---  minick flare /build
there is some variation  ..........
   when i get  a  BACH i really   like  --i dont call it a BACH   anymore  --i call it  a  TROMBONE  !!!!!!!!!!
------------
  chuck and i  got  a  couple of 62h --stories and  all   --both  from denver
  ----one of them ---ONE  NOTE ---- Hi Hi Hi Hi Hi Sing it! Sing it! Sing it! Pant Pant-----GLORIOUS  !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!OH  MY  OH MY  OH  MY  --
---------
  for  me  the  conns    i like all  feel immediately familiar  user friendly  and  much alike  ---recently   MIKE EGAN --[kenton/harry james //many more] seeks  a  trombone defense in band with  5 maynards
    maybe  the  last 6h  i sent to him  will  BE IT --  filthy  slide  --dents in flare-gooseneck  --BUT  IMMEDIATELY  --YES--VERY BRIGHT--SPARKLE--SMASH --IN YOUR FACE !!!!!!!!!
 ======THE SHERIFF  [SCOTT BENTALL] CAME DOWN ONE TIME --  partly to  pick out  a  6H  for low  brass instructor at  vandercook   --okokok i had  a pile  of 6hs   ONE  IN PARTICULAR   --HOLY SCHMOLLY  :-0 :-0 :-0 Amazed Amazed Don't know Don't know :-P :-P :-P Pant :cry: :cry://////////////  oh yeah  !!!!!!!!  MAN   WHAT A  NASTY  BELL  !!!!!!!!--A STRIPPER --BURLESQUE  BAND  -BAWDY - ///we loved this  bell  !!!
  but of course  --TOTALLY  UNSUITABLE  FOR  VANDERCOOK  !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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  those  leadpipes can  be  a  problem  !!!!!!!!!i know  unhip   guys who  rejected a williams ---the blow -sucked !!!!!!  ha ha  not all of earls  pipes  were happening --
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 THE SHERIFF   brought  the best RAW  MILK  IN THE  WORLD    AND PAW PAWS  !!!!!!!!!  showing  off  his lawler  built  burbank bob  slide --the  williams seem sorta  conn//martinish 
--------
  anyway    BURGER BOB    is sorting  it out w  his  60 --after  blowing THE TANK 72  --A YAMAHA 422   WAS CAKE  !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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