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Author Topic: Tuning in Slide vs. Tuning in Bell  (Read 2242 times)
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The Bone Ranger

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« Reply #20 on: Oct 14, 2017, 05:37PM »

Harrison,

If you truly believe that the only times one would need to move their tuning slide is when one is outdoors or playing in a different tuning system, then further discussion between you and I is probably pointless. It is also awfully hard to have a discussion when you decide, after the fact, that something was actually a "joke"...

My question is what is the point of in slide tuning? I found a few posts in random threads talking about how these types of horns have a conical bell, making the tubing leading up the bell having a smoother expansion. Can anybody shed some more light on the differences between these trombones? And has anybody played both as a side-by side comparison and can give first-hand experience about the advantages and disadvantages of each kind?

Moving the tuning mechanism to the handslide allows an instrument designer a few different options. As you mentioned, it allows a smoother expansion of tubing in the bell section, without adding two cylindrical sections. It also gives a manufacturer different options for placement (or non-placement) of braces in the bell section. On a horn like a Conn 70H or a Greenhoe with TIS, the large opera-wheel mechanism adds quite a bit of bracing and mass to the slide, too. This often necessitates a lighter bell in order to balance the playing characteristics of the horn. All of these things have an effect on the resonance, tone and playability of an instrument.

Not a better way of making an instrument, just a different way. As with any instrument, play a few first and decide whether that style is for you.

Andrew

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Hammer

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« Reply #21 on: Oct 14, 2017, 06:21PM »

I'm glad this thread had some traffic. Thanks for all of your comments.

Moving the tuning mechanism to the handslide allows an instrument designer a few different options. As you mentioned, it allows a smoother expansion of tubing in the bell section, without adding two cylindrical sections. It also gives a manufacturer different options for placement (or non-placement) of braces in the bell section. On a horn like a Conn 70H or a Greenhoe with TIS, the large opera-wheel mechanism adds quite a bit of bracing and mass to the slide, too. This often necessitates a lighter bell in order to balance the playing characteristics of the horn. All of these things have an effect on the resonance, tone and playability of an instrument.

Not a better way of making an instrument, just a different way. As with any instrument, play a few first and decide whether that style is for you.

I went to Dillon's today and had some fun with the bass trombones over there. I finally tried out a Kanstul 1662i they had with TIS. It played great, and it did feel like the mechanisms were heavy, with a fairly light bell. The slide was not as heavy as I thought it would be. The sound was very hard to place, and like a lot of people said on this thread, it's a completely different animal. Great sound, but not what I was looking for. I had my eyes on an independent Bach 50A3 with Hagmann valves, but it was not a good fit for me. I ended up finally making a choice of dependent Rath R9 with Hagmann valves. I was so used to independent F/Gb/D, but this sounded so great. Just the right amount of warmth, great projection, it can bite great...there were so many great things about it. Probably the big winner, aside from what I liked about the sound, was the ease of playing in the basement with the valves; they were so open feeling, even more than the inline independent version of this horn.

Cliff Notes version: I finally was able to try out TIS firsthand on some different horns. The sound is great, but not what I was looking for. And, I'm happy I finally got a great horn, even though I wasn't expecting to fall in love with first blow from the Rath R9 I picked.
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The Bone Ranger

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« Reply #22 on: Oct 14, 2017, 07:16PM »

I'm glad this thread had some traffic. Thanks for all of your comments.

I went to Dillon's today and had some fun with the bass trombones over there. I finally tried out a Kanstul 1662i they had with TIS. It played great, and it did feel like the mechanisms were heavy, with a fairly light bell. The slide was not as heavy as I thought it would be. The sound was very hard to place, and like a lot of people said on this thread, it's a completely different animal. Great sound, but not what I was looking for. I had my eyes on an independent Bach 50A3 with Hagmann valves, but it was not a good fit for me. I ended up finally making a choice of dependent Rath R9 with Hagmann valves. I was so used to independent F/Gb/D, but this sounded so great. Just the right amount of warmth, great projection, it can bite great...there were so many great things about it. Probably the big winner, aside from what I liked about the sound, was the ease of playing in the basement with the valves; they were so open feeling, even more than the inline independent version of this horn.

Cliff Notes version: I finally was able to try out TIS firsthand on some different horns. The sound is great, but not what I was looking for. And, I'm happy I finally got a great horn, even though I wasn't expecting to fall in love with first blow from the Rath R9 I picked.

Congrats on the new purchase!

The Kanstul is a slightly different take on the TIS, as they've tried to keep the slide as lightweight as possible. I think some of the magic of a good TIS horn is the heavy slide/light bell combination, but Kanstul went a different direction.

Andrew
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Doug Elliott
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« Reply #23 on: Oct 14, 2017, 07:33PM »

I think at this point most of the boutique trombone manufacturers put tapers in the tuning slide legs to approximate the continuous taper of a TIS bell section.
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« Reply #24 on: Oct 15, 2017, 06:52AM »

You're correct Doug, however not all tapered inner tubes are equal! (Just like mouthpieces, or any other aspect of the horn for that matter! Every manufacturer has their view as to what is "right") There are also other design/construction aspects that need to be considered as well that have an influence on this area of the horn.

Even with a "correctly" designed tapered inner slide tube, there will be a section of cylindrical bore profile when the slide is extended. The tuning slide in the bell is a real compromise in design, IMO.

FWIW...
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« Reply #25 on: Oct 15, 2017, 10:40AM »

Harrison,

If you truly believe that the only times one would need to move their tuning slide is when one is outdoors or playing in a different tuning system, then further discussion between you and I is probably pointless. It is also awfully hard to have a discussion when you decide, after the fact, that something was actually a "joke"...


It was a semi joke during the fact, too. If you can't see my saying "my trombone has TIB and TIS at the same time" as sort of tongue in cheek, then you're a robot, or there's some kind of language barrier between native speakers of American and Australian English. So serious! So dismissive!  Guarantee I'm not the only person on here who tries not to mess with their tuning slide, so if that's some kind of bar to communication for you, I don't know what to say.

Glad to hear that boutique makers are sort of having a TIS taper in their bells even if it is TIB. How does that work? Does it actually make my button pushing on Ranger actually less of a joke since my Edwards might have tapered slide stockings?
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« Reply #26 on: Oct 15, 2017, 10:54AM »

Careful, Harrison, one of the mods here has freely discussed their inability to discern sarcasm and certain non-obvious unwritten cues due to a difficulty with reading between the lines.

There are a few language barriers here on TTF.
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« Reply #27 on: Oct 15, 2017, 11:40AM »

harrison, I believe that there has to be some sort of tuning slide on a trombone, whether or not it is the bell or tuning slide is besides the point. You can't make a trombone that is just one size fits all without making some sort of compromise like a tuning slide somewhere in the horn.

Much like burgerbob it is physically impossible for me to play trombone with the tuning slide (in the bell or handslide) all the way in... my arms are just too short. That said I push it out very minimally, but I still have to pull out my tuning slide on almost every trombone otherwise I can't even get all 7 positions.
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« Reply #28 on: Oct 15, 2017, 11:54AM »

Now we are getting to what I was interested in talking about. Better solutions to the current systems of (fine) tuning a trombone. TIS is interesting, but there's some doubt as to whether or not a conical bell section takes away from what makes a trombone sound like a trombone. It's not everyone's cup of proverbial tea. A bigger issue is how heavy the handslide becomes.

Being a very tall person, I want a longer hand slide and a shorter bell tuning section. Not a longer outer slide (TIS), but a longer slide altogether. I want a low B with my F attachment.

Maybe a combo of shorter bell section with no bell tuning, longer slide, AND TIS located at the slide crook would work?
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« Reply #29 on: Oct 15, 2017, 12:03PM »

Ahh I see what you're saying.

My current bass trombone has a long 72H style slide and for the first time I actually have a in tune B natural in the staff and and a low C with the F valve. There is something about the long slide and short bell section that works in my opinion.

I'm not sure if putting the tuning in the crook is a good idea though... seems like it would be pretty easy to damage the crook or the alignment of the slide if you rest it on the ground.

For what it's worth... I think the Williams style J TIB tuning is brilliant. You get the more conical bell section and you the get structural stability of having the tuning in the bell and not having to worry about having any sort of mechanism on your slide. Granted... it is even more expensive to produce then a TIS system but I think it is a avenue that should be explored more since no one has really touched it since Williams and Minick.
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« Reply #30 on: Oct 15, 2017, 12:23PM »

Now we are getting to what I was interested in talking about. Better solutions to the current systems of (fine) tuning a trombone. TIS is interesting, but there's some doubt as to whether or not a conical bell section takes away from what makes a trombone sound like a trombone. It's not everyone's cup of proverbial tea. A bigger issue is how heavy the handslide becomes.

Being a very tall person, I want a longer hand slide and a shorter bell tuning section. Not a longer outer slide (TIS), but a longer slide altogether. I want a low B with my F attachment.

Maybe a combo of shorter bell section with no bell tuning, longer slide, AND TIS located at the slide crook would work?

I think it certainly would be interesting to try this.  ALthough as a vertically challenged person, low B is out of the question anyway.  With some of these valve systems being as uncompromising as they've came to be and actually not even all that expensive, it would be interesting to see a 'right arm tuning only' horn in a dependent configuration. Would give you access to the B more easily. Referencing the Kanstul pictured earlier, it may even be possible to make a tenor that doesn't weigh all that much more than a single rotor instrument.  My dependent tenor has a long, Conn 88H (closed wrap) tuning slide as its D attachment which functions as a pseudo-counterweight. So even though it is heavier than a normal attachment, it doesn't feel particularly difficult to hold up when in the playing position. 

The advantage of attempting it this way would be that TIS mechanisms are in and of themselves not as cheap as a regular slide and do require a little more effort to get aligned.  Over the life of an instrument, I wonder if it would even be less expensive to get a rotary valve to give you the lower notes and keep the other proportions relatively similar.
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« Reply #31 on: Oct 15, 2017, 01:14PM »

Well, wouldn't hitting low C be EVEN HARDER if my single-valve bass didn't have a tuning slide, once the horn warmed up?

All horns are different, of course. My Bach 42 and 50 play quite flat and I can play with the tuning slides pulled out very little (if at all).  But other horns need to be pulled a good inch.  I would be hard pressed to extend my 7th position another inch.  Slide action stinks way out there, and my arm is only so long...

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« Reply #32 on: Oct 15, 2017, 01:22PM »

All horns are different, of course. My Bach 42 and 50 play quite flat and I can play with the tuning slides pulled out very little (if at all). 
This phenomenon isn't even intentional with their design, they were designed with smaller mouthpieces in mind then the toilet bowls we use now. When I use a 1 1/2g on a 50B I pull out an inch, with my Doug Elliott Schilke 60ish piece I can only bump it out a couple of centimeters before Bb in first is unusable.
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« Reply #33 on: Oct 15, 2017, 01:29PM »

So that's the other thought I had. Many trombonists cut their slides as it is, so just make a trombone with a bell tuning slide already cut .5 - .75", or whatever would put what we think of as "long tuning" directly in the middle of the range of the bell tuning slide. Then make the handslide longer by half this length.
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« Reply #34 on: Oct 15, 2017, 02:14PM »

This phenomenon isn't even intentional with their design, they were designed with smaller mouthpieces in mind then the toilet bowls we use now. When I use a 1 1/2g on a 50B I pull out an inch, with my Doug Elliott Schilke 60ish piece I can only bump it out a couple of centimeters before Bb in first is unusable.

Gee, I use a Bach 1.5G or a Hammond 19BL and pull out only 1/4" or less on my 50B in a comfortably warm room.  I guess the player is part of the equation, too.
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« Reply #35 on: Oct 16, 2017, 07:01AM »

Re making a "one size fits all" instrument. I have had customers all over the spectrum. 2 very high level players in the same orchestra being polar opposites in that regard, with one pulling the tuning slide out @ 2 inches, with the other player having to have the tuning slide cut so that there was barely an inch of telescoping tubing.

If we were to look at the history of trombone construction, they did not have a "tuning slide" as we know today. Instead using the handslide bell tenon as a tuning mechanism. So extrapolating, a trombone ideally would have a constant taper from the handslide receiver to the bell flare, with no cylindrical sections at all. This is what TIS does, with the added benefit of having a tuning slide in the handslide. However, this has fallen out of favor, with bell mounted tuning slides being considered the "norm" for some time now. TIB and TIS sound different. Some say TIS sounds "Old School" and doesn't blend with "modern" instruments. Everyone has their own opinions in that regard...

FWIW.
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