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The Trombone ForumTeaching & LearningPractice Room(Moderator: blast) High Register, whisper g closed teeth and other "cheats"
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bonenick

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« on: Oct 21, 2017, 02:03AM »

Hi Folks,

I tried to put these questions for a discussion on he FB Tbone chat, but didn't get a whole lot of answers. So here there are:

1. Does anybody use in his practice routine the Cat Anderson whisper G and other calinestenic exercises involving playing with closed teeth (or at least try for).
2. Does anybody use unfurled/forward kiss position for high register playing (not necessarily only for high register?

2. Any other ideas enhancing endurance and high register besides long tones and Caruso type of exercises?
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« Reply #1 on: Oct 21, 2017, 06:56AM »

Maggio
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« Reply #2 on: Oct 21, 2017, 08:38AM »

I try to play with my teeth as closed as possible WHILE STILL MAKING A GOOD SOUND.  I encourage others to do so as well.  I also endeavor to avoid "opening up" for a bigger sound, or for lower notes.
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« Reply #3 on: Oct 21, 2017, 08:40AM »

I haven't done Maggio (although I suppose it is good).  I used Remington, long tones, and Caruso-like exercises (note that I only recently learned the real thing and discovered that I may have been doing parts of it for years).

There's more than one way to skin this cat, although I don't like to use the word "cheats".  Only real cheat I know of is to use a very small mouthpiece.  Lets the high notes out, but destroys the low ones.
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« Reply #4 on: Oct 21, 2017, 10:11AM »

There are no real cheats to intelligent practice. The above mentioned exercises and approaches are no exceptions. There's why I put them between ".But there are some exercises that may give us the right tools to achieve our goals.
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« Reply #5 on: Oct 21, 2017, 12:43PM »

I saw a video of someone demonstrating the whisper G and I thought it was a joke. Since finding out it's not, I have asked a few people how doing that could possibly be beneficial and no one I have asked has know what the point is. Can someone here explain? Or is it something you have to discuss and see demonstrated in person?
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« Reply #6 on: Oct 21, 2017, 02:02PM »

I have not done the whisper G though I've read about it.

I have done the lips rolled out thing.  I found I could get into the high range (high for me) by reducing pressure and rolling the lips out.  I had read the advice here to learn to pull the high register down. 

Well, it didn't work at all.  I had to reset the mouthpiece to get into that rolled out position, it was unstable, and it would not pull down.  But it did give me high notes. 

Later I took a lesson from Doug and what he described, lower lip firm against the teeth, turned out to be the opposite of what I'd come up with.  Also, it worked. 

I think there is a trumpet embouchure that does use the rolled out terminology.  Is it BE, balanced embouchure maybe?  I have not looked into it, no point confusing myself with yet another approach. 
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« Reply #7 on: Oct 21, 2017, 03:22PM »


2. Any other ideas enhancing endurance and high register besides long tones and Caruso type of exercises?


It's the "F" word again. Flexibilities. Try playing in 6th position a bar of medium tempo 8th notes repeating an A to C, moving up a position (5th Bb Db) until you get to 1st.

Next play C to Eb stopping at 2nd to avoid the Ab in 1st.

Then Eb to F, F to G, G to A.

Change to note values to triplets to aid swing and interest. When you feel that the note is going to fail, adjust aperture focus.

The advantage of this is being able to easily move around in the upper register without getting overly slotted.
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« Reply #8 on: Oct 22, 2017, 12:43AM »

Pre59,

I like your idea - I haven't tried it yet, but I often noodle on lip trills, slurs, bends and alike on every possible position and register. Some combination position+partials are more difficult or delicate, but that's no surprise.

Tim,

It is worth noticing that I am still experimenting on what works (for me) and what doesn't. Still, a lot of what I learned from the trumpet works on the trumpet, but some "stuff" is rather questionable.

WHISPER G. - it is a Cat Anderson's invention, kind of follow up/development of Toy Stevens/Costello (and possibly Maggio, not sure though on the latter) teachings and embouchure concepts.

It does few things at once - forces you to use the advised set up and develop embouchure involved muscle strength and control. Combined with the pencil exercise it teaches you to tweak/maintain certain aperture that is supposed to be helpful in high register (at least on trumpet)

The roll out embouchure is probably the most controversial part of it. It works (at least on trumpet) but is not something to expect to happen overnight. As far as I can say, it gives you a brighter and clearly livelier sound and makes embouchure work somewhat like a single Reed embouchure - most movement and tweaking is done by the lower jaw and the upper lip - the lower lip works a bit like a foundation and vibration mass - Hopefully that make sense.
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« Reply #9 on: Oct 22, 2017, 07:59AM »

IDDQD and IDKFA have worked well in the past for me.
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« Reply #10 on: Dec 14, 2017, 01:10AM »

Intrigued by these postings, I tried to learn about whisper G and found a few trumpet videos online. I tried to transfer the idea to the trombone. I put the teeth on top of each other to reduce overbite. The lips move somewhat more out and inside the mouthpiece. Also the back of the tongue comes up. Unsuprisingly there is lots of restistance. The sound is awful even after trying for a week. But I find it is an excellent exercise loosing up the tip of your lips and exercising them. I don't know what are possible side effects though. Usually I mostly focus on beautiful sound. This exercise is somewhat counter to that least on the surface.

I couldn't detect an effect on high range yet. But this was not my primary concern.
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« Reply #11 on: Dec 14, 2017, 01:50AM »

Any system that isn't or can't be integrated into the rest of the range is not going to be that useful in the long term. Good for grandstanding though..
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« Reply #12 on: Dec 14, 2017, 05:30AM »

There's an Anderson exercise I learned years ago, it may have been Clark Terry that told it to us (this was in a masterclass, although I had a lesson with him afterwards and it may have been in that.)

F above the staff (MM=80?) hold for 8 counts, tongue legato 8ths for 8 counts, hold 8 more counts? At least that is what the exercise has morphed into over time. This was over 25 years ago so the details have "shifted" as they're want to do over time. I would do this until right on the verge of being tired and then rest. Usually came after my remington/arp/lipslurs and before my tongue exercises. I wouldn't say it extended my high range per se but it definitely seemed to help stabilize it and it definitely helped with endurance. I always had a hard cut off on my high range that stopped at High Db, this exercise made that note stronger but didn't do much to get me above it.

Until Doug - Doug got me above that note. Thank you Doug. The only "cheat" I know that works - get the right gear for your face.
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« Reply #13 on: Dec 17, 2017, 07:26AM »

It's been a very long time since I read Maggio or Anderson's books, so my recollection of them may be off.

Maggio's system is based on playing a lot of pedal tones. Based on what I can remember about it, he advocated a very puckered lip position, at least for the pedal tones. I think risks giving you a low register embouchure and then a high register setting, or worse, using that puckered position throughout. Personally, I didn't recall finding enough to make it worth picking Maggio's book up or reading it again.

Anderson's exercises were, I think, mostly long tones at a very soft dynamic level. The "Whisper G" exercise is to hold out a middle trumpet G very, very softly for a very long time. I think there's some merit in playing very softly in the middle register. Both very high playing and very soft playing require (or result) in the embouchure aperture being very small. Playing in the middle register isn't as taxing as playing in the upper register so by playing very softly you simulate one aspect of high register playing and do it in a safe, targeted way. I think there's also a lot of benefit you can get from practicing the extreme upper register by playing very softly too ("squeakers").

Why are you asking about these methods? Are you looking to understand them for a teaching purpose, research, or personal practice?
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« Reply #14 on: Dec 17, 2017, 08:33AM »

Every day I do longtones soft tones flexibilities scales arpeggios and Caruso. Most time on scales and broken chord. Upcomming music to play soon.

Yes I tried the whisper G (wisper F actually) I reall think it has some value. For some. If you do it right.

I did look at Maggio in the 80th after hearing trumpeters doing it. I am sure it is good for some. Do it right? Well.
For me Maggio is not an option. It might be for trumpet players and trombone player that never have play in the low range.
For me the pedaltones is to be played like any other tones. Firm corners loose center. I am not saying that Maggio is bad, but I say it is not for everybody. I could tell about why I dont do Maggio. But not now.

What is for everybody? I believe longtones flexibilities scales striving for a good blow and good sound. And of course playing music.
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« Reply #15 on: Dec 17, 2017, 12:59PM »

IDDQD and IDKFA have worked well in the past for me.

I recognize the cheat codes for god mode and guns/ ammo but I forget the game!  Pant
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« Reply #16 on: Dec 17, 2017, 03:06PM »

I recognize the cheat codes for god mode and guns/ ammo but I forget the game!  Pant

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« Reply #17 on: Dec 18, 2017, 01:21AM »

Doing a search for some Maggio examples I found this.

WHAT ABOUT PEDAL TONES? BY FRANK G. CAMPOS

Nearly all of the so-called “high note methods” dating from the middle of the last century include extensive amounts of pedal exercises. The methods of Claude Gordon, Charles S. Peters, Roger W. Spaulding, and Roy Stevens/William Costello all appear to be heavily influenced by (and even copied note for note in some cases) from the work of Louis Maggio.4 Ironically, the exercises in this highly influential method appear to have originated from the practice material of one of the world’s greatest virtuosos, Rafael Méndez. Méndez stated that Maggio “...studied my playing and watched me when I was warming up with those pedal tones, and developed that way of teaching his system. From me, not me from him. It was my father’s It was my father’s style... As a matter of fact, when Mr. Maggio died, he left me all his material. I really didn’t need it because he got that from my way of playing.
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« Reply #18 on: Dec 18, 2017, 02:34AM »

Doing a search for some Maggio examples I found this.

WHAT ABOUT PEDAL TONES? BY FRANK G. CAMPOS

Nearly all of the so-called “high note methods” dating from the middle of the last century include extensive amounts of pedal exercises. The methods of Claude Gordon, Charles S. Peters, Roger W. Spaulding, and Roy Stevens/William Costello all appear to be heavily influenced by (and even copied note for note in some cases) from the work of Louis Maggio.4 Ironically, the exercises in this highly influential method appear to have originated from the practice material of one of the world’s greatest virtuosos, Rafael Méndez. Méndez stated that Maggio “...studied my playing and watched me when I was warming up with those pedal tones, and developed that way of teaching his system. From me, not me from him. It was my father’s It was my father’s style... As a matter of fact, when Mr. Maggio died, he left me all his material. I really didn’t need it because he got that from my way of playing.
I heard trumpet players a cuple of times in my life who could play pedaltones that really sounds like tones. I heard several hundreds of trumpet players "played" pedal tones what really did not sound like musical tones at all. I think it was Claude Gordon who said " if the pedaltones don´t sound good you better not play the at all".
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« Reply #19 on: Dec 18, 2017, 02:52AM »

How long have trombone players practised pedal tones?
I never saw any pedal tones in the repoire from 1600 and up to 1900.
"Fake tones" or falsett stimme was played at least from the beginning of 1600.
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