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The Trombone ForumTeaching & LearningPractice Room(Moderator: blast) High Register, whisper g closed teeth and other "cheats"
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Bcschipper
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« Reply #20 on: Dec 18, 2017, 11:13AM »

How long have trombone players practised pedal tones?
I never saw any pedal tones in the repoire from 1600 and up to 1900.
"Fake tones" or falsett stimme was played at least from the beginning of 1600.

My Mueller edition of David's concertino has a pedal B.

I believe pedal tones should be played on the trombone like any other tones without a noticeable break in the character of the sound.
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Bcschipper
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« Reply #21 on: Dec 18, 2017, 11:20AM »

Here are two videos explaining whisper G on the trumpet. For me, it is not just long soft tones but aligning the teeth on top of each other so as to minimize overbite. This focuses the vibration of the lips at the tip of their lips. And this is exactly the part that I believe is to be exercised with whisper G. I am still practicing it (now for two weeks) because I find it improves more control on the tip of my lips. I don't know the long term effects or ``side effects''.

https://youtu.be/xzs-X_spH2M

https://youtu.be/poAGh5EXD6U
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« Reply #22 on: Dec 19, 2017, 04:03AM »

My Mueller edition of David's concertino has a pedal B.

I believe pedal tones should be played on the trombone like any other tones without a noticeable break in the character of the sound.
Yes you are right. There was some pedal tones in the 1800 reportoire. I am sure some players played pedal tones very early, why should they not?
Yes the pedal tones has to be played just like any other tones to be used in music. Trumpers donīt need the pedal tones in their music. Well here are some examples of good pedal tones on trumpet though, but they are rare.

Interesting links! Especially the last one.
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« Reply #23 on: Dec 19, 2017, 06:16AM »


Interesting links! Especially the last one.

This link
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jztGQW7fml8

demonstrates a little more clearly.  It's Charlie Porter, and we've had some discussions and disagreements about his theories.  But I think his demonstration of whisper tones and trying not to slip into louder is good.  Unlike the other demonstrators he doesn't mention keeping the teeth together so I don't know if he does that part of the whisper tones. 
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Tim Richardson
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« Reply #24 on: Dec 19, 2017, 07:23AM »

I like that one.  That's exactly what I've talked about.  He demonstrates it perfectly.

Keeping the teeth fairly close together is part of it, but touching in front is not essential.  Most people can't get anything out that way and then they dismiss the whole idea.
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« Reply #25 on: Dec 19, 2017, 08:54AM »

I can get a sound out with teeth closed but it's hard, and really sensitive to chops motion.  But then it's not something I've worked on. 
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Tim Richardson
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« Reply #26 on: Dec 19, 2017, 11:12AM »

I like that one.  That's exactly what I've talked about.  He demonstrates it perfectly.

Keeping the teeth fairly close together is part of it, but touching in front is not essential.  Most people can't get anything out that way and then they dismiss the whole idea.

I deliberately did not include the link to Porter because he doesn't mention that the teeth should be aligned. To me this is a very essential feature. Without it, I don't get the hyperfocus of vibrating the very tip of my lips. May be I do something wrong. But I tried to make sense of the fact that whisper G is supposed to be something beyond long extremely soft tones.

What comes out very nicely in the Porter video though is that the whisper tone is at the "edge" between a sound and no sound. May be his teeth are such that he doesn't need to reduce overbite by aligning the teeth. In fact, in his video on the embochure he advocates for an alignment of the teeth in any case; see the exact sequence in his video https://youtu.be/lLE_-ly8hrQ?t=12m44s. So for him aligning upper with lower teeth is kind of automatic and that's why he may not mention it explicitly in his video on whisper G.
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« Reply #27 on: Dec 20, 2017, 05:41AM »

That video is interesting for a couple of reasons.

One is that he almost but not quite duplicates Doug's procedure of set, place, breath, play.  He says some other stuff that is different.

The other is that he is more detailed and repetitious than probably any other tutorial video on youtube.  You can't miss what he's trying to teach, it's kind of a lesson in how to do an indepth video. 
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Tim Richardson
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« Reply #28 on: Dec 20, 2017, 12:24PM »

He explains very good so even I got most of it. I never listen any play that quiet before, at least not a trumpet player. One question, he don't do anything special or unusual that differ from his normal playing, just be very firm around the mouth? I thought I could play soft but I didn't get it that soft.

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« Reply #29 on: Dec 21, 2017, 02:52AM »

Leif, that takes some practice. I believe that it is a matter of balance. Once you can ignite the sound without forcing or tongue and can maintain a steady air flow on such soft volumes, it becomes almost natural, but it remains a good chop and airflow exercise. On low brass is a bit more difficult, but not impossible.
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« Reply #30 on: Dec 23, 2017, 11:49AM »

I got around to watching the videos, and trying this. It is rather hard to play above a whisper with my upper and lower teeth touching, but I can feel my face muscles working.

Without buying the poster's book and seeing what else he has to say, I would say this is the second (or higher) step into the study of compression for trumpet players. Trumpet players also use tongue arch support for extreme high range. I've heard of some trombone players using it, but I'm less convinced that we need it.

I started working on lip compression about 10 years ago, and I've added at least a 4th to my range. My teacher, Al Kay, has said to me that I can expect to add a note per year. I have watched him perform the Bolero solo an octave above where it is written.

I also had to learn how compression appies to bass trombone playing. A simple answer is less so, but I'm now able to switch between tenor and bass easily on the same gig.
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« Reply #31 on: Dec 23, 2017, 01:23PM »

Though I was off the bone for more than a month after a surgery in november (and finding my tone obnoxious for the first session after the come-back) I can tell that the closed teeth setup is nothing more than a embouchure stregth exercise (not to be used in a performance). I am not sure if Charlie Porter is playing with teeth closed on the video. However, working this may makes easier to switch from full/classical sound to more airy, Till Bronner/Chet Baker kind of sound (didn't really worked on this on the tbone) To be honest, I never heard any tbone player doing it on will (as a signature sound, not just an ocassional effect)
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growlerbox
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« Reply #32 on: Dec 23, 2017, 01:56PM »

To be honest, I never heard any tbone player doing it on will (as a signature sound, not just an ocassional effect)

I'll keep saying this until someone acknowledges that they've listened to it ( Evil) -- Glenn Ferris, especially on the album Face Lift, in his trio with double bass and cello.
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« Reply #33 on: Dec 23, 2017, 02:08PM »

Yes you are right. There was some pedal tones in the 1800 reportoire. I am sure some players played pedal tones very early, why should they not?
Yes the pedal tones has to be played just like any other tones to be used in music. Trumpers donīt need the pedal tones in their music. Well here are some examples of good pedal tones on trumpet though, but they are rare.

Interesting links! Especially the last one.

The pedal tones on trumpet don't seem to center as well an octave below the next fundamental, like they do on trombone. They don't sound as good, either. Somebody on the forum told me that they don't maximize trumpet design for pedal tones because they're not used much.
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« Reply #34 on: Dec 23, 2017, 02:22PM »

I'll keep saying this until someone acknowledges that they've listened to it ( Evil) -- Glenn Ferris, especially on the album Face Lift, in his trio with double bass and cello.

 Good!
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« Reply #35 on: Dec 23, 2017, 02:30PM »

I don't know if this counts, but it definitely seems like a 'cheat':

I have a sort of 'falsetto' range on trombone, achieved by the bottom lip going behind the bottom teeth, and the upper lip going in front of it, sort of curling and stretching the lips, as nearly as I can describe it. It's a thinner tone, like a vocal falsetto.

I top out at D and maybe F using the 'press and pray' method, but those notes are easier by the aforementioned method, and I top out at the Bb above that in 'falsetto', with little pressure, although the tone becomes less and less viable. I wonder if anyone else uses that when playing.

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« Reply #36 on: Dec 23, 2017, 02:32PM »

Good!

Finally!  :D
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« Reply #37 on: Dec 23, 2017, 02:38PM »

Finally!  :D

I find it interesting that trombone has an extremely wide tonal range compared to other instruments, but that people tend to play it with a fairly legit tone. Guys like Roswell and Glenn push that boundary more than others. Look at the variety of sax tonality in fairly accessible and commercial music. You have that clean, light tone, like Lee Konitz and Paul Desmond, then the big hearty guys, and the growls and honks and squawks and the breathy players that go 'fa fa fa' on the notes, and none of that is viewed as a defect.

In particular, I think that breathy tone works nicely on trombone.
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« Reply #38 on: Dec 23, 2017, 02:42PM »

I don't know if this counts, but it definitely seems like a 'cheat':

I have a sort of 'falsetto' range on trombone, achieved by the bottom lip going behind the bottom teeth, and the upper lip going in front of it, sort of curling and stretching the lips, as nearly as I can describe it. It's a thinner tone, like a vocal falsetto.

I top out at D and maybe F using the 'press and pray' method, but those notes are easier by the aforementioned method, and I top out at the Bb above that in 'falsetto', with little pressure, although the tone becomes less and less viable. I wonder if anyone else uses that when playing.


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« Reply #39 on: Dec 23, 2017, 06:45PM »

I never heard of Glenn Ferris, I watched some youtube today.

Wow. 
Thanks for sharing.
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Tim Richardson
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