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The Trombone ForumTeaching & LearningPractice Room(Moderator: blast) High Register, whisper g closed teeth and other "cheats"
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« Reply #40 on: Dec 23, 2017, 07:26PM »

I never heard of Glenn Ferris, I watched some youtube today.

Wow. 
Thanks for sharing.

I first heard him in high school, when we played Don Ellis's "Final Analysis." His solo on that track pissed me off a little because it sounded like he wasn't even trying to sound good. I recently reheard it, after listening to and respecting his later work, and it still pissed me off a little.

But we don't have enough Eric Dolphys in the trombone world, who aren't afraid to get a little ugly. Glenn Ferris's use of a breathy, unconventional tone in the linked post wouldn't be even slightly controversial on any other instrument. We need to get uglier, in a beautiful way.
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« Reply #41 on: Dec 24, 2017, 02:59AM »

Dick Nash?

...Geezer
Why do you think so?
Dicks sound on the 24th partial F was full and strong. And with the mpc extremely low on the mouth. ?
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« Reply #42 on: Dec 24, 2017, 05:17AM »

Why do you think so?
Dicks sound on the 24th partial F was full and strong. And with the mpc extremely low on the mouth. ?

I was under the impression that the question was speculative as to who rolls their lower lip in to play high, not who uses the Whisper G technique. I remember a vid of Dick Nash showing how he rolled his lip in to play high.

...Geezer
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« Reply #43 on: Dec 24, 2017, 06:10AM »

I never heard of Glenn Ferris, I watched some youtube today.

Wow. 
Thanks for sharing.

Me too! I don't see (hear) what the big deal is. He has a marvelous tone and isn't afraid of exploring the lower register. Those special effects mentioned are simply that - special effects, not a non-stop way of playing. Terrific!

Thanks for the Glen Ferris turn on!

Headphones on! "SAINT JAMES INFIRMARY". Too much reverb. Lol!

...Geezer
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« Reply #44 on: Dec 24, 2017, 06:20AM »

I was under the impression that the question was speculative as to who rolls their lower lip in to play high, not who uses the Whisper G technique. I remember a vid of Dick Nash showing how he rolled his lip in to play high.

...Geezer


Yes Dick Nash does roll....there is also a video on you tube of Dick telling the story of how he explained how he did this to JJ Johnson when JJ decided to return to playing......

Another player with similar low placement and a fantastic high F and above was the late great Don Lusher!
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« Reply #45 on: Dec 24, 2017, 08:01AM »

I neither pout, nor roll, but purse..
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« Reply #46 on: Jan 01, 2018, 11:25AM »

Not sure if this the right platform but I'm I'm going to enquire about is entirely associated with high register practicing. I am a beginner and played for about 8 months now. I'm trying to improve high register range. However have experienced a persistent headache whenever I try pushing a little of high notes. I watched a video of a trombone player advising somewhere that one must not attempt out ones normal range notes more than 3 times. I tried to follow that advise, in fact I haven't been pushing it that a lot when I realize that most pieces played around here rarely reach an A above staff. Nonetheless I tried to reach a D an octave above the D between cleffs. To my surprise I reached the D with seeming ease. I tried again and was able to hold each note as I was coming down the scale (on a flat). Is this normal or am I doing something wrong? I read somewhere some brass players experience similar headaches, but I don't consider this a problem as it does not affect my other activities and goes away in few hours. I must say this helps me to play the G above staff with ease every time though my band colleagues sometimes either skip that note or complains after afterward. I also try to warm up though not always thoroughly. How could one handle this issue? Thanks in advance!
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Doug Elliott
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« Reply #47 on: Jan 01, 2018, 12:53PM »

The issue of learning to expand your range upward as a relative beginner is much too specific or general, or simple or complicated, to provide a short answer.  But don't do things that cause headaches. Especially headaches that last for hours.
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« Reply #48 on: Jan 02, 2018, 04:43AM »

As usual, Doug is spot on. Try play high notes with the less effort possible. Better have fewer higher notes (especially as you are a beginner) but play them with less effort, meaning to look more for efficiency than sheer range, obtained by expotentially increasing the effort, thus risking hurting yourself one wayor another.
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« Reply #49 on: Jan 02, 2018, 09:48AM »

I deliberately did not include the link to Porter because he doesn't mention that the teeth should be aligned. To me this is a very essential feature.

Having the teeth aligned is important for a lot of players. For others, it's not helpful. This is one of those personal things that depends on your anatomy. There are embouchure patterns that you can learn about to help you understand more. Doug Elliott is a good resource here.


Yes Dick Nash does roll....there is also a video on you tube of Dick telling the story of how he explained how he did this to JJ Johnson when JJ decided to return to playing......

If you can, please post a link.

I find it surprising that Dick Nash would feel like he's rolling his lower lip in to ascend. Nash is a perfect example of the "low placement embouchure type." For these players the lower lip doesn't show a lower lip roll in the same way that many downstream embouchure players have. The lower lip sort of flattens out, rather than rolling in. Lloyd Leno's film is a good place to see them in slow motion.

https://youtu.be/UHq7vCihaXg

Unfortunately he doesn't show film of an upstream player above Bb4, so here are a couple of photos of upstream players playing F5.




Compare the lower lips of those players to Bill Watrous, also from Lloyd Leno's film, playing from Bb3 all the way up to Bb5.

https://youtu.be/CoxnhjLMVBo?t=6m22s

Lip position is another one of those things that's hard to generalize. Every player is going to be different, although those patterns to remain. I'd be reluctant to teach an upstream player to "roll the lower lip in," even if a textbook upstream player like Dick Nash suggests to. It really doesn't seem to be what's actually happening.

It's also why I recommend against Maggio's puckered lip routine. It doesn't appear to be what well-functioning embouchures actually do when playing and I prefer to avoid any exercises that encourages practicing in a way that isn't conducive to good playing.

2. Any other ideas enhancing endurance and high register besides long tones and Caruso type of exercises?

Catch a lesson with Doug or someone else with a handle on brass embouchure types and learn how your chops function correctly. It's less important what you play and more important to play correctly (for your own unique anatomy).

Dave
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« Reply #50 on: Jan 02, 2018, 10:42AM »

Paul The Trombonist interviews Dick Nash

The whole 9 minute interview is terrific, but for Dick's little explanation of how he coached JJ into playing a high F, see around mile marker 6:30.

...Geezer
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Doug Elliott
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« Reply #51 on: Jan 02, 2018, 10:55AM »

For a lot of upstream players, the feel is very much like a downstream embouchure including feeling like rolling in for high range even though that's not actually what's happening.
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« Reply #52 on: Jan 02, 2018, 11:21AM »

Paul The Trombonist interviews Dick Nash

The whole 9 minute interview is terrific, but for Dick's little explanation of how he coached JJ into playing a high F, see around mile marker 6:30.

Awesome, thanks! I'll check it out soon.

For a lot of upstream players, the feel is very much like a downstream embouchure including feeling like rolling in for high range even though that's not actually what's happening.

Yeah, it wouldn't surprise me. For me it doesn't feel anything like rolling my lower lip. I just tried it and I can't ascend using anything that feels to me like I'm rolling my lower lip. I wonder if that's because back in the day when I played downstream I was using a true lower lip roll and I'm aware of the feeling of the difference now.

To me, it suggests that when we teach or communicate to others about how we're playing we should make an effort to distinguish between playing sensations and reality. One player's "rolling the lower lip" is another's "retrieve the lower lip."

Dave
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« Reply #53 on: Jan 02, 2018, 02:19PM »

Well the feeling of any type of adjustment depends on where you're starting.  That's why it can be impossible to adequately describe a position of the lip or jaw or tongue to different people... Depends entirely on where it is already.
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« Reply #54 on: Jan 04, 2018, 02:31AM »

Paul The Trombonist interviews Dick Nash

The whole 9 minute interview is terrific, but for Dick's little explanation of how he coached JJ into playing a high F, see around mile marker 6:30.

...Geezer
I donīt understand what Dick is saying, to me it sounds like " I cut the crow with my chop" that to me is just what??? What is he saying and what does it mean? around 6:30 i think.
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« Reply #55 on: Jan 04, 2018, 03:13AM »

I donīt understand what Dick is saying, to me it sounds like " I cut the crow with my chop" that to me is just what??? What is he saying and what does it mean? around 6:30 i think.

At 6:36:
"I tuck and curl my chops."

He rolls in his lip(s).
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« Reply #56 on: Jan 04, 2018, 07:43AM »

At 6:36:
"I tuck and curl my chops."

He rolls in his lip(s).
Thank you  :)
That make sence, not the same as just roll in the lower lip though.
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« Reply #57 on: Jan 04, 2018, 07:48AM »

Thank you  :)
That make sence, not the same as just roll in the lower lip though.

And here is where we get into the problem of describing things.

If you told me to roll in my lower lip or told me to tuck and curl it, I'd do the exact same thing. I just tried it. No difference.
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« Reply #58 on: Jan 04, 2018, 07:58AM »

And here is where we get into the problem of describing things.

If you told me to roll in my lower lip or told me to tuck and curl it, I'd do the exact same thing. I just tried it. No difference.

FWIW; I agree.

AND it's perhaps where students who are un-instructed or who do not diligently heed their instructor get into trouble trying to follow well-intentioned advice on this or any other Forum. These kinds of threads and their comments posted may make good gab, but that's about all.

When I want to earnestly find out about some aspect of playing, I ask my instructor. Period.

OBTW; I kinda like Sven's "cut the crow" interpretation. It stuck in my craw.   ;-)

...Geezer
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« Reply #59 on: Jan 04, 2018, 11:26AM »


When I want to earnestly find out about some aspect of playing, I ask my instructor. Period.

OBTW; I kinda like Sven's "cut the crow" interpretation. It stuck in my craw.   ;-)

...Geezer

FWIW, I don't have a formal instructor. I rely on my experience as a trumpet player to all thing related to embouchure, but sometimes the bigger mp requires slightly different approach. So I do read these threads, and sometimes try things that I have read about. Sometimes it works for me, sometimes not.
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