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The Trombone ForumPractice BreakChit-ChatPurely Politics(Moderators: bhcordova, RedHotMama, BFW) Nothing burger becomes a something burger
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Author Topic: Nothing burger becomes a something burger  (Read 3018 times)
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« on: Oct 28, 2017, 08:10AM »

Indictments!

http://www.nydailynews.com/opinion/charges-russian-meddling-probe-prove-no-witch-hunt-article-1.3595200

Any guesses on who is on the list?

I bet the first one is Paul Manafort.

It is anyone's guess as to far up the chain these shenanigans go, but as the smaller players get caught up in it, I would not be surprised if they flip in exchange for immunity.
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« Reply #1 on: Oct 28, 2017, 08:49AM »

I'm just glad to see something happening, at all. Too often those close to power or in power don't suffer the same consequences for bad behavior that we do.
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« Reply #2 on: Oct 28, 2017, 11:06AM »

Too soon for Kushner.

I think General Micheal Flynn had undeclared foreign agent work that turned up, but Manafort says he's already been told he would be charged so he's probably first.

If Trump ever gets charged with anything (I doubt it) I'm guessing it's the money laundering stuff.
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« Reply #3 on: Oct 28, 2017, 02:51PM »

I suspect Manafort in an effort to flip him on the Podesta group. Trump will likely pardon Manafort. Trump will likely then either empower Sessions to go after everyone implicated in the "enrichment" via uranium, going back to 2009, or choose a new AG that will work with Director Wray to clean house.

You can't indict a sitting president btw.
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« Reply #4 on: Oct 28, 2017, 03:04PM »

I guess it’s too much to hope that Jared is charged, trades his evidence for immunity, and sends Ivanka to jail.
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« Reply #5 on: Oct 28, 2017, 03:14PM »

Hey man, hope against hope, wish against wish. Just not sure what crimes are even at stake with the Trump clan. Collusion isn't a crime; bribery, however, is. (among other things)
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« Reply #6 on: Oct 28, 2017, 08:56PM »

You can't indict a sitting president btw.

That's not a law, just an assumption. It's never been tested and back when a Democratic President was the object of an investigation, the Republican special prosecutor was all for deciding that assumption was wrong.

Can the President Be Indicted? A Long-Hidden Legal Memo Says Yes


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...Nothing in the Constitution or federal statutes says that sitting presidents are immune from prosecution, and no court has ruled that they have any such shield...

Quote
... the Constitution’s speech-or-debate clause explicitly grants limited immunity to lawmakers for certain actions. “If the framers of our Constitution wanted to create a special immunity for the president,” he argued, “they could have written the relevant clause.”

The President is not a lawmaker.

If you can sue a sitting President, why can't you indict him??



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« Reply #7 on: Oct 28, 2017, 10:11PM »

From the article:

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In the end, both Mr. Jaworski and Mr. Starr let congressional impeachment proceedings play out and did not try to indict the presidents while they remained in office. Mr. Starr, who had decided he could indict Mr. Clinton, said in a recent interview that he had concluded the more prudent and appropriate course was simply referring the matter to Congress for potential impeachment.

This is likely, in some part, due to the fact that the question of whether the President can their self or not has not been thoroughly addressed. The precedent we have thus far is that Presidents that are suspected of criminality are considered "unindicted coconspirators".
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« Reply #8 on: Oct 30, 2017, 06:02AM »

Looks like Manafort will be first in.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/10/report-former-trump-chair-paul-manafort-and-partner-told-to-surrender/544331/

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/30/us/politics/paul-manafort-indicted.html?smid=tw-nytimes&smtyp=cur&_r=1
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« Reply #9 on: Oct 30, 2017, 07:50AM »

And it turns out another guy had already pleaded guilty weeks ago to some of the charges against him. Sounds like a guy who is making a deal.

https://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/breaking-another-charged

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George Papadopolous, another of those first five campaign advisors announced in March 2016 (Carter Page was another), pleaded guilty on Oct. 5, 2017, to making false statements to FBI. Unsealed this morning.

...

We’re reading through the Papadopolous charges now. They are pretty bad and go directly to the Russia issue. More soon.


The guilty plea is interesting reading if you have time.  Includes mysterious reference to "the professor" :D

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B81cCV1S2vNpdTFWbktXOUVqR1U/view
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« Reply #10 on: Oct 30, 2017, 09:09AM »

Try saying "Papadopolous plea" five times fast.

The Papadopolous plea establishes that the Russian contacts weren't just trivial acquaintances that predated the Trump campaign and that they weren't irrelevant to the Trump campaign.

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« Reply #11 on: Oct 30, 2017, 09:23AM »

Meanwhile, sphincters are tightening up at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue
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« Reply #12 on: Oct 30, 2017, 09:25AM »

Thoughts On the Papadopolous Plea

Quote
...It shows a Trump foreign policy advisor in active communication with what appear to be Russian government officials or spies trying to get dirt on Hillary Clinton, arrange meetings with Russian government officials (even Vladimir Putin, rather ludicrously) and solicit Russian support...

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...in revealing the Manafort news early, giving time for the White House to respond as you’d expect (nothing to do with us or Russia or the campaign) and then following up by revealing this Papadopolous indictment certainly has the feel of sucker punching the White House.

Aw... poor White House!
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« Reply #13 on: Oct 30, 2017, 09:50AM »

The nothing burger turns out to be a crow burger
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« Reply #14 on: Oct 30, 2017, 09:54AM »

Trump will likely then either empower Sessions to go after everyone implicated in the "enrichment" via uranium, going back to 2009, or choose a new AG that will work with Director Wray to clean house.


Amazing how many Americans are not smart enough to see through the "uranium" smoke screen.
http://mindy-fischer-writer.com/2017/10/watch-joy-reid-shove-facts-conservatives-throat-tries-peddle-fake-uranium-story-video/
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« Reply #15 on: Oct 30, 2017, 11:04AM »


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"Second, we arrested Papadopolous in July and he pled out in October and no one knew. So don’t think you have any idea what we have."

That was very interesting, and connecting those dots likely isn't impossible.  For an investigation that's been as airtight as this one, the indictment news on Friday seemed weird, until this happened:

1.  Leak the indictments, under seal.
2.  Trump kneejerks and tweets about how there's "NO COLLUSION."
3.  Reveal you've got a songbird who is literally confession to collusion.

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« Reply #16 on: Oct 30, 2017, 02:39PM »

The Papadopolous guy is all of 30 years old. Got in over his head with the shady crowd maybe?

He is second one after Jeff Sessions at the lower left of this "National Security Meeting" pic.




The penalty for a FARA violation is up to five years imprisonment and up to $10,000.

The penalty for a "False Statement" conviction is up to five years and up to $250,000.


I presume that these can be multiplied by the number of charges you get convicted on.

How many years would you do for Donald Trump? I might do five but 10 would test my loyalty.
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« Reply #17 on: Oct 30, 2017, 03:46PM »

Hey man, hope against hope, wish against wish. Just not sure what crimes are even at stake with the Trump clan. Collusion isn't a crime; bribery, however, is. (among other things)

"Collusion" is a term which doesn't appear in a relevant law because it is broad and imprecise.

However, accepting campaign support (anything "of value") from a foreign government is an example of an act of collusion that is illegal.

Yes, collusion can be a crime.

Ironically, the laws on this got tightened in the 90s after the Republicans accused the Clinton campaign of colluding with China. Former TV star and then Senator Fred Thompson launched hearings where he very dramatically read off a list of crimes committed by Clinton with China but then was unable to produce any witnesses or evidence to substantiate of it.

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« Reply #18 on: Oct 30, 2017, 08:51PM »

A reporter who is also a lawyer speculates on what the known events may mean...

Lawyer Exposes “Single Most Important Fact” in Mueller’s Investigation That No One is Talking About


It's a series of 45 tweets which begins...

Quote
1/ Investigators are now trying to determine *exactly* when every member of the Trump campaign found out Russia was working to elect Trump.

2/ These dates are of legal importance because they establish a “mens rea” (mental state) for possible crimes committed by Trump and others.

3/ Once Trump, his family, and/or his campaign aides knew Russia was committing crimes to assist Trump, certain actions became *prohibited*.

4/ For instance, once Trump had this knowledge, he could not publicly deny it without running afoul of federal Aiding and Abetting statutes.

5/ For instance, once Don Jr. had this knowledge he couldn’t take any action in furtherance of a plan to benefit from Russia’s illegal acts.

6/ Knowledge of Russian illegalities—even broadly—is a necessary precursor to what we colloquially call “collusion” (not a legal term here)...

Quote
10/ What do the Trump aides who changed the GOP platform last July say in response to charges they were executing a quid pro quo for Russia?

11/ They say (a) they were executing orders Trump gave March 31, 2016; (b) but don’t blame Trump, because he didn’t know what we were doing.

12/ What’s *Trump’s* excuse as to Russia working to elect him—after *admitting* he knew and then *getting briefed on it* on August 17, 2016?
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« Reply #19 on: Oct 30, 2017, 10:06PM »

You're on a roll Rob - keep it up.  I'm enjoying every post!  Good! Good!
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