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The Trombone ForumPractice BreakChit-ChatPurely Politics(Moderators: bhcordova, RedHotMama, BFW) Nothing burger becomes a something burger
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« on: Oct 28, 2017, 08:10AM »

Indictments!

http://www.nydailynews.com/opinion/charges-russian-meddling-probe-prove-no-witch-hunt-article-1.3595200

Any guesses on who is on the list?

I bet the first one is Paul Manafort.

It is anyone's guess as to far up the chain these shenanigans go, but as the smaller players get caught up in it, I would not be surprised if they flip in exchange for immunity.
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« Reply #1 on: Oct 28, 2017, 08:49AM »

I'm just glad to see something happening, at all. Too often those close to power or in power don't suffer the same consequences for bad behavior that we do.
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« Reply #2 on: Oct 28, 2017, 11:06AM »

Too soon for Kushner.

I think General Micheal Flynn had undeclared foreign agent work that turned up, but Manafort says he's already been told he would be charged so he's probably first.

If Trump ever gets charged with anything (I doubt it) I'm guessing it's the money laundering stuff.
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« Reply #3 on: Oct 28, 2017, 02:51PM »

I suspect Manafort in an effort to flip him on the Podesta group. Trump will likely pardon Manafort. Trump will likely then either empower Sessions to go after everyone implicated in the "enrichment" via uranium, going back to 2009, or choose a new AG that will work with Director Wray to clean house.

You can't indict a sitting president btw.
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« Reply #4 on: Oct 28, 2017, 03:04PM »

I guess it’s too much to hope that Jared is charged, trades his evidence for immunity, and sends Ivanka to jail.
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« Reply #5 on: Oct 28, 2017, 03:14PM »

Hey man, hope against hope, wish against wish. Just not sure what crimes are even at stake with the Trump clan. Collusion isn't a crime; bribery, however, is. (among other things)
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« Reply #6 on: Oct 28, 2017, 08:56PM »

You can't indict a sitting president btw.

That's not a law, just an assumption. It's never been tested and back when a Democratic President was the object of an investigation, the Republican special prosecutor was all for deciding that assumption was wrong.

Can the President Be Indicted? A Long-Hidden Legal Memo Says Yes


Quote
...Nothing in the Constitution or federal statutes says that sitting presidents are immune from prosecution, and no court has ruled that they have any such shield...

Quote
... the Constitution’s speech-or-debate clause explicitly grants limited immunity to lawmakers for certain actions. “If the framers of our Constitution wanted to create a special immunity for the president,” he argued, “they could have written the relevant clause.”

The President is not a lawmaker.

If you can sue a sitting President, why can't you indict him??



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« Reply #7 on: Oct 28, 2017, 10:11PM »

From the article:

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In the end, both Mr. Jaworski and Mr. Starr let congressional impeachment proceedings play out and did not try to indict the presidents while they remained in office. Mr. Starr, who had decided he could indict Mr. Clinton, said in a recent interview that he had concluded the more prudent and appropriate course was simply referring the matter to Congress for potential impeachment.

This is likely, in some part, due to the fact that the question of whether the President can their self or not has not been thoroughly addressed. The precedent we have thus far is that Presidents that are suspected of criminality are considered "unindicted coconspirators".
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« Reply #8 on: Oct 30, 2017, 06:02AM »

Looks like Manafort will be first in.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/10/report-former-trump-chair-paul-manafort-and-partner-told-to-surrender/544331/

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/30/us/politics/paul-manafort-indicted.html?smid=tw-nytimes&smtyp=cur&_r=1
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« Reply #9 on: Oct 30, 2017, 07:50AM »

And it turns out another guy had already pleaded guilty weeks ago to some of the charges against him. Sounds like a guy who is making a deal.

https://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/breaking-another-charged

Quote
George Papadopolous, another of those first five campaign advisors announced in March 2016 (Carter Page was another), pleaded guilty on Oct. 5, 2017, to making false statements to FBI. Unsealed this morning.

...

We’re reading through the Papadopolous charges now. They are pretty bad and go directly to the Russia issue. More soon.


The guilty plea is interesting reading if you have time.  Includes mysterious reference to "the professor" :D

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B81cCV1S2vNpdTFWbktXOUVqR1U/view
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« Reply #10 on: Oct 30, 2017, 09:09AM »

Try saying "Papadopolous plea" five times fast.

The Papadopolous plea establishes that the Russian contacts weren't just trivial acquaintances that predated the Trump campaign and that they weren't irrelevant to the Trump campaign.

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« Reply #11 on: Oct 30, 2017, 09:23AM »

Meanwhile, sphincters are tightening up at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue
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« Reply #12 on: Oct 30, 2017, 09:25AM »

Thoughts On the Papadopolous Plea

Quote
...It shows a Trump foreign policy advisor in active communication with what appear to be Russian government officials or spies trying to get dirt on Hillary Clinton, arrange meetings with Russian government officials (even Vladimir Putin, rather ludicrously) and solicit Russian support...

Quote
...in revealing the Manafort news early, giving time for the White House to respond as you’d expect (nothing to do with us or Russia or the campaign) and then following up by revealing this Papadopolous indictment certainly has the feel of sucker punching the White House.

Aw... poor White House!
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« Reply #13 on: Oct 30, 2017, 09:50AM »

The nothing burger turns out to be a crow burger
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« Reply #14 on: Oct 30, 2017, 09:54AM »

Trump will likely then either empower Sessions to go after everyone implicated in the "enrichment" via uranium, going back to 2009, or choose a new AG that will work with Director Wray to clean house.


Amazing how many Americans are not smart enough to see through the "uranium" smoke screen.
http://mindy-fischer-writer.com/2017/10/watch-joy-reid-shove-facts-conservatives-throat-tries-peddle-fake-uranium-story-video/
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« Reply #15 on: Oct 30, 2017, 11:04AM »


Quote
"Second, we arrested Papadopolous in July and he pled out in October and no one knew. So don’t think you have any idea what we have."

That was very interesting, and connecting those dots likely isn't impossible.  For an investigation that's been as airtight as this one, the indictment news on Friday seemed weird, until this happened:

1.  Leak the indictments, under seal.
2.  Trump kneejerks and tweets about how there's "NO COLLUSION."
3.  Reveal you've got a songbird who is literally confession to collusion.

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« Reply #16 on: Oct 30, 2017, 02:39PM »

The Papadopolous guy is all of 30 years old. Got in over his head with the shady crowd maybe?

He is second one after Jeff Sessions at the lower left of this "National Security Meeting" pic.




The penalty for a FARA violation is up to five years imprisonment and up to $10,000.

The penalty for a "False Statement" conviction is up to five years and up to $250,000.


I presume that these can be multiplied by the number of charges you get convicted on.

How many years would you do for Donald Trump? I might do five but 10 would test my loyalty.
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« Reply #17 on: Oct 30, 2017, 03:46PM »

Hey man, hope against hope, wish against wish. Just not sure what crimes are even at stake with the Trump clan. Collusion isn't a crime; bribery, however, is. (among other things)

"Collusion" is a term which doesn't appear in a relevant law because it is broad and imprecise.

However, accepting campaign support (anything "of value") from a foreign government is an example of an act of collusion that is illegal.

Yes, collusion can be a crime.

Ironically, the laws on this got tightened in the 90s after the Republicans accused the Clinton campaign of colluding with China. Former TV star and then Senator Fred Thompson launched hearings where he very dramatically read off a list of crimes committed by Clinton with China but then was unable to produce any witnesses or evidence to substantiate of it.

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« Reply #18 on: Oct 30, 2017, 08:51PM »

A reporter who is also a lawyer speculates on what the known events may mean...

Lawyer Exposes “Single Most Important Fact” in Mueller’s Investigation That No One is Talking About


It's a series of 45 tweets which begins...

Quote
1/ Investigators are now trying to determine *exactly* when every member of the Trump campaign found out Russia was working to elect Trump.

2/ These dates are of legal importance because they establish a “mens rea” (mental state) for possible crimes committed by Trump and others.

3/ Once Trump, his family, and/or his campaign aides knew Russia was committing crimes to assist Trump, certain actions became *prohibited*.

4/ For instance, once Trump had this knowledge, he could not publicly deny it without running afoul of federal Aiding and Abetting statutes.

5/ For instance, once Don Jr. had this knowledge he couldn’t take any action in furtherance of a plan to benefit from Russia’s illegal acts.

6/ Knowledge of Russian illegalities—even broadly—is a necessary precursor to what we colloquially call “collusion” (not a legal term here)...

Quote
10/ What do the Trump aides who changed the GOP platform last July say in response to charges they were executing a quid pro quo for Russia?

11/ They say (a) they were executing orders Trump gave March 31, 2016; (b) but don’t blame Trump, because he didn’t know what we were doing.

12/ What’s *Trump’s* excuse as to Russia working to elect him—after *admitting* he knew and then *getting briefed on it* on August 17, 2016?
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« Reply #19 on: Oct 30, 2017, 10:06PM »

You're on a roll Rob - keep it up.  I'm enjoying every post!  Good! Good!
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« Reply #20 on: Oct 31, 2017, 04:44AM »

The Papadopolous guy is all of 30 years old. Got in over his head with the shady crowd maybe?

He is second one after Jeff Sessions at the lower left of this "National Security Meeting" pic.




The penalty for a FARA violation is up to five years imprisonment and up to $10,000.

The penalty for a "False Statement" conviction is up to five years and up to $250,000.


I presume that these can be multiplied by the number of charges you get convicted on.

How many years would you do for Donald Trump? I might do five but 10 would test my loyalty.

We don't know what the charges on Popadopalous were when he was arrested in July. He's now facing just 0-6 months for "lying to the FBI" because of his cooperation with the investigation. Manafort and Gates have not been cooperative, and have been hit with some pretty serious indictments. But who knows whether Mueller has even more serious (can it get more serious than "Conspiracy against the USA?) charges he can file against them if they don't become cooperative. And, do you suppose Wilber Ross has got a pretty tight sphincter after seeing how many times the bank he ran in Cyprus is mentioned in the indictments? This Mafia gang is going DOWN!
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« Reply #21 on: Oct 31, 2017, 07:50AM »

Quote
38.  From in or about and between 2006 and 2017...the defendants PAUL J. MANAFORT, JR., and RICHARD W. GATES III, together with others, knowingly and intentionally conspired to defraud the United States by impeding, impairing, obstructing, and defeating the lawful governmental functions of a government agency, namely the Department of Justice and the Department of the Treasury, and to commit offenses against the United States...
That's "others" plural.  This is literally the tip of the spear.
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« Reply #22 on: Oct 31, 2017, 08:09AM »

From a Canadian perspective, it's good to see Wilbur Ross in trouble. NAFTA and all that.
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« Reply #23 on: Oct 31, 2017, 09:23AM »

Quote
Nothing burger becomes a something burger

And everyone is shocked! Shocked I tell you!
 
 ...
 
Well, if by "everyone" you mean everyone who's clueless enough, whether actually or by selective processes conscious or otherwise.
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« Reply #24 on: Oct 31, 2017, 11:51AM »

Remember when our resident parrot called the Russia stories'fake news' because no one had been indicted, so there was 'no wrongdoing'?

Now that we have a conviction (based on a guilty plea), serious indictments, and more to come, is that going to change? Just kidding, of course it won't. Just the excuse for calling it fake news will change.

The way you can spot people who don't think for themselves is that they don't change their minds when circumstances change.
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« Reply #25 on: Oct 31, 2017, 12:25PM »

We're all amateurs here, but watch a couple of real professional nothing-burgerers at work.

In almost every breath there is something simply untrue or misleading by omission and yet it is all reeled off as just plain facts...

https://youtu.be/h3Bg_rxxGzM
<a href="https://youtube.com/v/h3Bg_rxxGzM" target="_blank">https://youtube.com/v/h3Bg_rxxGzM</a>


Gingrich says Mueller is "out of control" but just a few months ago...

Quote
Newt Gingrich‏Verified  @newtgingrich

Robert Mueller is superb choice to be special counsel. His reputation is impeccable for honesty and integrity. Media should now calm down

5:17 PM - 17 May 2017
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« Reply #26 on: Oct 31, 2017, 12:49PM »

Right out of the gate, Hannity's stock talking point is a lie. The Special Prosecutor's scope was to investigate Russian interference in the election, and possibly coordination with members of Trump's campaign. Both of those things could have taken place without demonstrating that Trump himself colluded with the Russians, so the investigation is not confined to indicting Trump himself.

Once you start with a false premise, the rest is obviously B.S. and that's what follows here. Mueller isn't 'out of control' because his mandate was never as narrow as they're pretending it is.

Moreover, the prosecutor's marching orders were to investigate crimes that turn up during course of the investigation. Surely they're not expected to catch people laundering money and evading taxes and turn them loose free and clear. If the police are investigating a burglary and discover a meth lab in your house, of course they're going to charge you.
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« Reply #27 on: Oct 31, 2017, 01:15PM »

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« Reply #28 on: Nov 01, 2017, 08:48AM »

I'm sure this won't change any minds that insist it's all a witch hunt, but they seem to be focused on only pursuing real crimes not trumped-up or petty violations.


Andrew Weissmann, Mueller’s Legal Pit Bull

Quote
Empowered by Mr. Mueller, for whom he previously worked as general counsel at the F.B.I., Mr. Weissmann has taken the lead in the government’s case against Paul Manafort, Mr. Trump’s former campaign chairman, whose indictment jolted the capital on Monday in a clear signal of the team’s seriousness.

Mr. Weissmann could be seen at an initial hearing in Washington with an easy smile, chatting up Mr. Manafort’s lawyer during a break in the action.

Friends describe Mr. Weissmann as relentless and boundary-grazing but fundamentally fair, a creative legal strategist whose hyperdiligence should not be confused with recklessness.

He is the prosecutor they would want if their relatives were charged with crimes they did not commit, they say, and the one they would dread if their family members were guilty.

“If there’s something to find, he’ll find it,” said Katya Jestin, a former colleague in the United States attorney’s office for the Eastern District of New York, who called Mr. Weissmann’s ethics unimpeachable. “If there’s nothing there, he’s not going to cook something up.”
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« Reply #29 on: Nov 01, 2017, 09:13AM »

20 minute discussion between two NYT staff

Interesting assertions made...

-Trump org et al. have been absurdly corrupt bottom feeders for years. We tried to warn you!

-If the Russians really were trying to aid the Clinton campaign, why is the Trump admin so eager to advantage the Russians?

-One thinks a Mueller firing would finally break Trump's congressional support. The other thinks there would be some public handwringing and then back to tax cuts!
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« Reply #30 on: Nov 01, 2017, 09:33AM »

From the usual fake news sources:

"Top Democrats on the Senate Intelligence Committee berated lawyers for social media giants Facebook Inc., Twitter Inc. and Google for a lethargic response to Russian interference in U.S. politics, as the companies’ lawyers faced a second day of grilling in Congress.

“Your first presentations were less than sufficient,” Mark Warner said at the panel’s hearing Wednesday, saying lawmakers were at first “blown off” by companies that in effect said, “Nothing like this happened. Nothing to see here,” only to later acknowledge that Russian efforts had reached perhaps as many as 150 million Americans.

Several senators chided the companies for sending their lawyers instead of their chief executive officers. “We would appreciate seeing the top people who are actually making the decisions,” said Senator Angus King or Maine, an independent who caucuses with Democrats. The committee’s leaders have said they wanted witnesses able to answer technical questions, not necessarily the CEOs.

Still, Facebook’s General Counsel Colin Stretch was dressed down when he was unable to tell Warner whether his company had cross-checked 30,000 fake accounts it took down before the French election to see if any had been active in the U.S."

Yet, Fox News, useful idiots that they are, continue to promote the Russian influence campaign. Vlad must be so pleased.
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« Reply #31 on: Nov 01, 2017, 10:38PM »

Remember when our resident parrot called the Russia stories'fake news' because no one had been indicted, so there was 'no wrongdoing'?

Now that we have a conviction (based on a guilty plea), serious indictments, and more to come, is that going to change? Just kidding, of course it won't. Just the excuse for calling it fake news will change.

The way you can spot people who don't think for themselves is that they don't change their minds when circumstances change.

I hate to pile on. Really I do.

But after reading the steady stream of insults he has thrown at liberals/democrats over this investigation I find it amusing that we haven't heard a peep out of the parrot. But then again I would be surprised if he popped in and admitted that he was wrong in his assertion that there was nothing to this and that is was just a waste of time and a witch hunt.

I guess it is hard to digest crow and type at the same time.
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« Reply #32 on: Nov 02, 2017, 08:47AM »

As of yet there is no proof that Russians were doing this at the explicit request of the Trump campaign.

However, it is an example of how easy it has become for a foreign power to manufacture fear and conflict inside the US.

Extraordinary

Quote
Quote
    Heart of Texas, a Russian-controlled Facebook group that promoted Texas secession, leaned into an image of the state as a land of guns and barbecue and amassed hundreds of thousands of followers. One of their ads on Facebook announced a noon rally on May 21, 2016 to “Stop Islamification of Texas.”

    A separate Russian-sponsored group, United Muslims of America, advertised a “Save Islamic Knowledge” rally for the same place and time.

    On that day, protesters organized by the two groups showed up on Travis Street in downtown Houston, a scene that appeared on its face to be a protest and a counterprotest. Interactions between the two groups eventually escalated into confrontation and verbal attacks.

This is simply extraordinary. What I’ve learned separately is that this wasn’t some unknown thing. The scuffling and the two events were written up in most or all of the local papers.
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« Reply #33 on: Nov 03, 2017, 11:28AM »

Quote
As of yet there is no proof that Russians were doing this at the explicit request of the Trump campaign.

I think the real question, which is likely already answered in the investigation and sealed, is whether or not Bannon and Kushner's data analytics operation with Cambridge Analytica assisted Russian propaganda in spreading those messages.  It's not whether Trump's campaign asked them for help (Trump himself did that on national television).  It's where the Russians got their data from.
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« Reply #34 on: Nov 03, 2017, 12:47PM »

“Our goal wasn't to turn Americans toward Russia. Our goal was to set Americans against their own government,” he said.

“To provoke unrest, provoke dissatisfaction, lower (Barack) Obama's rating.”


https://www.yahoo.com/news/alt-twitter-blogger-jenna-abrams-105338598.html
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« Reply #35 on: Nov 03, 2017, 03:07PM »

Sad state we live in when citizens can be so easily manipulated.
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« Reply #36 on: Nov 03, 2017, 03:51PM »

On a slightly different topic, if Trump wants Hilary investigated, can he, or his trained chimp, Mr. Sessions, appoint a special persecuter?



Prosecutor. Yes, I know.
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« Reply #37 on: Nov 03, 2017, 04:40PM »

On a slightly different topic, if Trump wants Hilary investigated, can he, or his trained chimp, Mr. Sessions, appoint a special persecuter?



Prosecutor. Yes, I know.

Well...

Quote
§ 600.1 Grounds for appointing a Special Counsel.

The Attorney General, or in cases in which the Attorney General is recused, the Acting Attorney General, will appoint a Special Counsel when he or she determines that criminal investigation of a person or matter is warranted and -

(a) That investigation or prosecution of that person or matter by a United States Attorney's Office or litigating Division of the Department of Justice would present a conflict of interest for the Department or other extraordinary circumstances; and

(b) That under the circumstances, it would be in the public interest to appoint an outside Special Counsel to assume responsibility for the matter.


So far there hasn't been a real plausible case that a criminal investigation is warranted considering that several congressional Benghazi investigations and all that Ken Starr stuff in the 90s came up with nothing.

It is telling that the Trump DOJ hasn't bothered with "Hillary"

I'm sure none of us would have trouble identifying a conflict of interest with the Trump DOJ vis-a-vis Hillary, but... What respectable prosecutor would do it? Who would want to come out of retirement or leave a good law practice just for a witch hunt that has already been thoroughly mined and debunked?

Besides Ken Starr, I mean?

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« Reply #38 on: Nov 04, 2017, 07:40PM »

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/paul-manafort-offers-12-million-in-assets-to-avoid-house-arrest/

Ah, to be rich. If only we all could just buy our way out of following our legal processes. Heaven forbid our political parties hire people who aren't worth millions. Yeah, RIGHT.
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« Reply #39 on: Nov 05, 2017, 05:45AM »

Sad state we live in when citizens can be so easily manipulated.

We should have let the South secede.
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« Reply #40 on: Nov 05, 2017, 12:04PM »

Commerce Sec hiding wealth and Russian business ties with Cayman Island dodges...

Commerce Secretary’s Offshore Ties to Putin ‘Cronies’

Quote
After becoming commerce secretary, Wilbur L. Ross Jr. retained investments in a shipping firm he once controlled that has significant business ties to a Russian oligarch subject to American sanctions and President Vladimir V. Putin’s son-in-law, according to newly disclosed documents.

The shipper, Navigator Holdings, earns millions of dollars a year transporting gas for one of its top clients, a giant Russian energy company called Sibur, whose owners include the oligarch and Mr. Putin’s family member. Despite selling off numerous other holdings to join the Trump administration and spearhead its “America first” trade policy, Mr. Ross kept an investment in Navigator, which increased its business dealings with Sibur even as the West sought to punish Russia’s energy sector over Mr. Putin’s incursions into Ukraine.

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Mr. Ross’s stake in Navigator has been held by a chain of companies in the Cayman Islands, one of several tax havens where much of his wealth, estimated at more than $2 billion, has been tied to similar investment vehicles. Details of these arrangements surfaced in a cache of leaked files from Appleby, one of the world’s largest offshore law firms, which administered some 50 companies and partnerships in the Caymans and elsewhere connected to Mr. Ross.

The Russians must be appealing guys if so many Trump friends just can't quit them.
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« Reply #41 on: Nov 05, 2017, 01:38PM »


We should have let the South secede.

Don't kid yourself. People can be manipulated anywhere.
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« Reply #42 on: Nov 05, 2017, 08:08PM »

Don't kid yourself. People can be manipulated anywhere.

Yup ... and different inclinations have a whole lot to do with what sort of manipulation works or doesn't, and right wing authoritarian types are in fact more easily manipulated than most of the rest of us. None of which even suggests that anyone can't be manipulated. In fact I'd argue that those who think they can't be manipulated (common in the arrogance of proud dogmatism so popular in the Deep Red, and probably more so specifically in the Southeast) just make it easier. The guy who thinks he's too smart to be fooled is the guy the con artist particularly likes.
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« Reply #43 on: Nov 06, 2017, 08:17AM »


This morning's "what next?" dump...

Russia Puts the Squeeze on Don Jr.


Quote
That notorious Russian lawyer who met with Don Jr., Jared Kushner, and Paul Manafort in Trump Tower in June 2016 is talking again. Natalia Veselnitskaya gave a two and a half hour interview yesterday in Moscow in which she claimed that Don Jr. had told her that key sanctions against Russia might be lifted in what seems to have been a tacit exchange for help in the election.

Vesenitskaya can't be assumed to be truthful, but...

Quote
That is a huge, huge detail – if it’s true.

Even if you assume it is true, there’s no reason for Veselnitskaya to say it. No one is forcing her to say anything, certainly no legal authority in the United States. So whether it’s true or not almost seems beside the point. The real significance is that she’s suggesting something highly, highly damaging.

Here’s another possibility to consider. There were other Veselnitskaya associates at that meeting in addition to her. Why do we think one of them wasn’t wearing a wire? There’s nothing about Don Jr., the Trump organization or the Trump campaign that gives us any reason to think any of these people would have been searched for such a listening device. It’s certainly possible that she or one of her colleagues have proof of what was said in that meeting, something that would leave all three of the key Trump side players vulnerable to blackmail.


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« Reply #44 on: Nov 06, 2017, 09:03AM »

Here's a thought: what is Russia's end game, now that it has been incredibly successful in its influence campaign that saw its favoured candidate elected?

Keep stirring the pot? Or bring Trump down? The former keeps their man in the game, but the latter might be more disruptive. Do you take down the Trump administration man by man? Is it a coincidence that the Paradise Papers from the Appleby firm name Wilbur Ross (are there Russia links to the Paradise Papers?) and now, in the wake of the first indictments, Russia, through NV, suggests in might have more info damaging to DTJr and Kushner.

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« Reply #45 on: Nov 06, 2017, 10:20AM »

This morning's "what next?" dump...

Russia Puts the Squeeze on Don Jr.

 
Quote
That notorious Russian lawyer who met with Don Jr., Jared Kushner, and Paul Manafort in Trump Tower in June 2016 is talking again. Natalia Veselnitskaya gave a two and a half hour interview yesterday in Moscow in which she claimed that Don Jr. had told her that key sanctions against Russia might be lifted in what seems to have been a tacit exchange for help in the election.

Vesenitskaya can't be assumed to be truthful, but...
 
Quote
That is a huge, huge detail – if it’s true.

Even if you assume it is true, there’s no reason for Veselnitskaya to say it. No one is forcing her to say anything, certainly no legal authority in the United States. So whether it’s true or not almost seems beside the point. The real significance is that she’s suggesting something highly, highly damaging.

Here’s another possibility to consider. There were other Veselnitskaya associates at that meeting in addition to her. Why do we think one of them wasn’t wearing a wire? There’s nothing about Don Jr., the Trump organization or the Trump campaign that gives us any reason to think any of these people would have been searched for such a listening device. It’s certainly possible that she or one of her colleagues have proof of what was said in that meeting, something that would leave all three of the key Trump side players vulnerable to blackmail.

Of course it wouldn't be surprising in the slightest if what Veselnitskaya's claiming is true, but the idea she doesn't have any reason to say it is silly. The whole issue is the huge Russian campaign to manipulate and divide the American and generally Western World public (mostly via the more easily manipulated people--the far right, esp. the Alt Right™/Alternative Facts Crüe). We can't think this campaign is a Thing and then turn around and pretend there's somehow no motive for Russian operative types to participate ... eh?
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« Reply #46 on: Nov 06, 2017, 11:01AM »

Here's a thought: what is Russia's end game, now that it has been incredibly successful in its influence campaign that saw its favoured candidate elected?

Keep stirring the pot? Or bring Trump down? The former keeps their man in the game, but the latter might be more disruptive. Do you take down the Trump administration man by man? Is it a coincidence that the Paradise Papers from the Appleby firm name Wilbur Ross (are there Russia links to the Paradise Papers?) and now, in the wake of the first indictments, Russia, through NV, suggests in might have more info damaging to DTJr and Kushner.


Chaos is their game.  Keeps us busy and not able to spend time stopping Putin from doing whatever he wants.  Have we mentioned the Russian soldiers in the Ukraine recently?  Could we lead a successful challenge to them with the international community?  Just keep poking things one at a time and keep destroying the ability to determine the truth.  Heck, a good amount of what they leak out is probably fake.  But enough of it is true that there is no way to determine what is true and what is false anymore.

Cheers,
Andy
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« Reply #47 on: Nov 06, 2017, 11:01AM »



Of course it wouldn't be surprising in the slightest if what Veselnitskaya's claiming is true, but the idea she doesn't have any reason to say it is silly.

What he means is, no innocent reason.
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« Reply #48 on: Nov 06, 2017, 03:51PM »

Heck, a good amount of what they leak out is probably fake.  But enough of it is true that there is no way to determine what is true and what is false anymore.

Hogwash. People just have to stop getting info from their favorite color of the week clubs and learn how to be critical of new information. It's not that hard.
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« Reply #49 on: Nov 06, 2017, 06:13PM »

Hogwash. People just have to stop getting info from their favorite color of the week clubs and learn how to be critical of new information. It's not that hard.
Not hogwash at all.  Look at it this way, the russian Lawyer lady has printed three different stories to various outlets in the last week, all with different versions of the story.  It is exhausting to constantly question every element when there is no way to independently verify any of it.

There are a million ways to lie and only one version of the truth, they exhaust your time and effort with the lies.  Look how many times the stupid uranium deal has gone around the horn.  There is nothing new to the case, but it keeps re-surfacing.  There are only so many pages in a paper and minutes in a broadcast.  Time spent there is taken from actual stories and information.

Cheers,
Andy
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« Reply #50 on: Nov 06, 2017, 09:40PM »



Carter Page's testimony is filled with bombshells — and supports key portions of the Steele dossier



Trump campaign officials tried to swap access to Trump for favors from Russia at least 3 times

Do you think they'll be able to get away with saying Donald Jr. was just a coffee boy?

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« Reply #51 on: Nov 06, 2017, 11:00PM »

hey DD, are you reading this?  Way cool
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« Reply #52 on: Nov 06, 2017, 11:11PM »



Do you think they'll be able to get away with saying Donald Jr. was just a coffee boy?



Or a covfefe boy?
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« Reply #53 on: Nov 07, 2017, 04:55AM »

Not hogwash at all.  Look at it this way, the russian Lawyer lady has printed three different stories to various outlets in the last week, all with different versions of the story.  It is exhausting to constantly question every element when there is no way to independently verify any of it.

There are a million ways to lie and only one version of the truth, they exhaust your time and effort with the lies.  Look how many times the stupid uranium deal has gone around the horn.  There is nothing new to the case, but it keeps re-surfacing.  There are only so many pages in a paper and minutes in a broadcast.  Time spent there is taken from actual stories and information.

Cheers,
Andy

You have to learn how to evaluate sources. Assume that a source that is trustworthy will continue to be so, and do not continue trust in sources that publish rubbish. Lying propaganda is only effective when consumers don't punish publication sources for hogwash.

It's the most blatant when people keep going back to some hogwash source not because they trust it but because they like its message regardless of truth. We see that there is a price to such laziness. It should be a part of growing up and being an adult that we consider factual publications worth more than what those we'd only like to be true.
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« Reply #54 on: Nov 07, 2017, 05:29AM »

You have to learn how to evaluate sources. Assume that a source that is trustworthy will continue to be so, and do not continue trust in sources that publish rubbish. Lying propaganda is only effective when consumers don't punish publication sources for hogwash.

It's the most blatant when people keep going back to some hogwash source not because they trust it but because they like its message regardless of truth. We see that there is a price to such laziness. It should be a part of growing up and being an adult that we consider factual publications worth more than what those we'd only like to be true.
When the source is the press secretary at the white house, it has to be discussed by even robust news sources.  Even if it is a blatant lie.  It wears you down and wastes your time which is still limited.

Again, how often do we have to hear a soundbite and have a correction on the facts?  There are only so many hours in the day and it can even tax the most discriminating of consumers.

"But her e-mails!"

Cheers,
Andy
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« Reply #55 on: Nov 07, 2017, 10:03AM »

When the source is the press secretary at the white house, it has to be discussed by even robust news sources.  Even if it is a blatant lie.  It wears you down and wastes your time which is still limited.


Frankly, I just wish the MSM would call a lie a lie.  None of this "untruth" or "misdirection" or "mistruth" or "verbal combativeness" BS.  When she lies, when Trump lies, whenever *anyone* lies, just call it a lie.  Call it a lie, publish the verified truth, and move on.  If they did to to Sarah Huckabee, every question at the press conferences would be "Why did you lie about X on DATE?" Or, they'd simply cut off the tap.
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« Reply #56 on: Nov 07, 2017, 10:09AM »

What he means is, no innocent reason.

The implication is that there's no reason for her to lie, so her testimony is credible--she has no reason to lie (about implicating DJJ).
 
I think that's a selectively naive take.
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« Reply #57 on: Nov 07, 2017, 10:16AM »

More on Commerce Sec Wilbur Ross. The greatest indignity of all...

Forbes: Wilbur Ross ‘Lied’ About Being A Billionaire


The Case of Wilbur Ross' Phantom $2 Billion

Quote
...So began the mystery of Wilbur Ross' missing $2 billion. And after one month of digging, Forbes is confident it has found the answer: That money never existed. It seems clear that Ross lied to us, the latest in an apparent sequence of fibs, exaggerations, omissions, fabrications and whoppers that have been going on with Forbes since 2004. In addition to just padding his ego, Ross' machinations helped bolster his standing in a way that translated into business opportunities. And based on our interviews with ten former employees at Ross' private equity firm, WL Ross & Co., who all confirmed parts of the same story line, his penchant for misleading extended to colleagues and investors, resulting in millions of dollars in fines, tens of millions refunded to backers and numerous lawsuits. Additionally, according to six U.S. senators, Ross failed to initially mention 19 suits in response to a questionnaire during his confirmation process.


Ever wonder what Ross' connection to Trump is? He's the one who negotiated the deal that let Trump keep a 50% stake in his casinos even after he had run them into bankruptcy.
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« Reply #58 on: Nov 07, 2017, 10:53AM »


The implication is that there's no reason for her to lie, so her testimony is credible--she has no reason to lie (about implicating DJJ).
 
I think that's a selectively naive take.

No, that is not his implication, and you know that.

"Even if you assume it is true..."

I think you've heard that phrase before and are aware of why it is used.

Among English speakers, the phrase "Even if you assume it is true..." indicates that the speaker does not, himself, accept something as credible but is only temporarily allowing the rhetorical "you" that possibility to explore why it doesn't matter in regards to the larger point he is making: she is talking now as part of a Russian maneuver to influence; not because she is some random chatterbox, not because some random journo happened to ask her questions only now but because it is useful to them to put these claims out there now.
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« Reply #59 on: Nov 07, 2017, 11:07AM »

On former Trump foreign policy advisor Carter Page's congressional testimony...

Basically a nut.

Quote
I found it difficult to discern whether he has some sort of cognitive deficit causing an inability to focus or whether he was simply trying to kick dust in people’s faces with nonsensical digressions. My one consistent impression is that he thinks he’s a good deal more clever than he is. You could probably guess that by his decision to testify without a lawyer present.

Quote
A good deal of the first half of his testimony was tied to a convoluted explanation of why he apparently failed to turn over a substantial number of documents he was ordered to turn over to the House committee. (His argument did not sound legally tenable.)

Quote
The text reads like a guy who thinks he’s being really clever and skating right past people with canny interpretations when he’s clearly just lying and doing so in a position of great legal vulnerability.

Clearly Page, like Papadopoulos, is basically a goof. But like Papadopoulos, I suspect he’s trouble for the Trump inner circle and that there’s a lot more we still don’t know.

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« Reply #60 on: Nov 07, 2017, 11:36AM »

Frankly, I just wish the MSM would call a lie a lie.  None of this "untruth" or "misdirection" or "mistruth" or "verbal combativeness" BS.  When she lies, when Trump lies, whenever *anyone* lies, just call it a lie.  Call it a lie, publish the verified truth, and move on.  If they did to to Sarah Huckabee, every question at the press conferences would be "Why did you lie about X on DATE?" Or, they'd simply cut off the tap.
The first mistep they make on calling something a lie in a press briefing scenario will feed Fox News, the White House, Breitbart, and the rest of the so-called conservative media for decades.  Unfortunately, that is what feeds breathless coverage of "but uranium" and "E-MAILS!!1!!1!"

Cheers,
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« Reply #61 on: Nov 07, 2017, 01:35PM »

Doesn't matter.  If the press had the balls to call a spade a spade, Trump & Co., Faux Noise, and the rest of the self-proclaimed 'alt-right' would say they were lying and their followers would still be for them.  Don't expect a presidential election in 2020.
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« Reply #62 on: Nov 08, 2017, 07:17AM »

Doesn't matter.  If the press had the balls to call a spade a spade, Trump & Co., Faux Noise, and the rest of the self-proclaimed 'alt-right' would say they were lying and their followers would still be for them.  Don't expect a presidential election in 2020.

You left out the Clintons and Obamas.  Don't know
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« Reply #63 on: Nov 08, 2017, 01:56PM »

You left out the Clintons and Obamas.  Don't know
Because when your guys do bad, the others MUST have done it as well, right?

So much for personal responsibility...
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« Reply #64 on: Nov 08, 2017, 02:29PM »

Because when your guys do bad, the others MUST have done it as well, right?

So much for personal responsibility...

Are you suggesting that the Clintons are angels? LOL!
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« Reply #65 on: Nov 08, 2017, 05:06PM »

Are you suggesting that the Clintons are angels? LOL!

Not in the least. BUT, 30 years of witch hunts, kangaroo courts, tin-foil hat conspiracy theories, and untold numbers of serious investigations have turned up 1 lie about an oral sexual encounter and ABSOLUTELY NOTHING ELSE. NADA, NOTHING, ZILCH, ZIPPO, BUPKIS, GOOSE EGGS. ETC., ETC., ETC.
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« Reply #66 on: Nov 08, 2017, 05:07PM »

Not in the least. BUT, 30 years of witch hunts, kangaroo courts, tin-foil hat conspiracy theories, and untold numbers of serious investigations have turned up 1 lie about an oral sexual encounter and ABSOLUTELY NOTHING ELSE. NADA, NOTHING, ZILCH, ZIPPO, BUPKIS, GOOSE EGGS. ETC., ETC., ETC.

But her emails!
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« Reply #67 on: Nov 08, 2017, 06:36PM »

Not in the least. BUT, 30 years of witch hunts, kangaroo courts, tin-foil hat conspiracy theories, and untold numbers of serious investigations have turned up 1 lie about an oral sexual encounter and ABSOLUTELY NOTHING ELSE. NADA, NOTHING, ZILCH, ZIPPO, BUPKIS, GOOSE EGGS. ETC., ETC., ETC.

"The Whitewater controversy (also known as the Whitewater scandal, or simply Whitewater) began with investigations into the real estate investments of Bill and Hillary Clinton and their associates, Jim and Susan McDougal, in the Whitewater Development Corporation, a failed business venture in the 1970s and 1980s."

Whitewater Convictions

Jim Guy Tucker: Governor of Arkansas at the time, removed from office (fraud, 3 counts)

John Haley: attorney for Jim Guy Tucker (tax evasion)

William J. Marks, Sr.: Jim Guy Tucker's business partner (conspiracy)

Stephen Smith: former Governor Clinton aide (conspiracy to misapply funds). Bill Clinton pardoned.

Webster Hubbell: Clinton political supporter; Rose Law Firm partner (embezzlement, fraud)

Jim McDougal: banker, Clinton political supporter: (18 felonies, varied)

Susan McDougal: Clinton political supporter (multiple fraud). Bill Clinton pardoned.

David Hale: banker, self-proclaimed Clinton political supporter: (conspiracy, fraud)

Neal Ainley: Perry County Bank president (embezzled bank funds for Clinton campaign)

Chris Wade: Whitewater real estate broker (multiple loan fraud). Bill Clinton pardoned.

Larry Kuca: Madison real estate agent (multiple loan fraud)

Robert W. Palmer: Madison appraiser (conspiracy). Bill Clinton pardoned.

John Latham: Madison Bank CEO (bank fraud)

Eugene Fitzhugh: Whitewater defendant (multiple bribery)

Charles Matthews: Whitewater defendant (bribery)

Ultimately the Clintons were never charged, but 15 other persons were convicted of more than 40 crimes, including Bill Clinton's successor as Governor, who was removed from office.[40]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whitewater_%28controversy%29#Convictions

or,

https://web.archive.org/web/20090326122112/http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whitewater_%28controversy%29



That's just one example.

Least one forget Janet Reno and her ineptitude and her pickup.  Evil
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« Reply #68 on: Nov 08, 2017, 06:46PM »

"The Whitewater controversy (also known as the Whitewater scandal, or simply Whitewater) began with investigations into the real estate investments of Bill and Hillary Clinton and their associates, Jim and Susan McDougal, in the Whitewater Development Corporation, a failed business venture in the 1970s and 1980s."

Whitewater Convictions

Jim Guy Tucker: Governor of Arkansas at the time, removed from office (fraud, 3 counts)

John Haley: attorney for Jim Guy Tucker (tax evasion)

William J. Marks, Sr.: Jim Guy Tucker's business partner (conspiracy)

Stephen Smith: former Governor Clinton aide (conspiracy to misapply funds). Bill Clinton pardoned.

Webster Hubbell: Clinton political supporter; Rose Law Firm partner (embezzlement, fraud)

Jim McDougal: banker, Clinton political supporter: (18 felonies, varied)

Susan McDougal: Clinton political supporter (multiple fraud). Bill Clinton pardoned.

David Hale: banker, self-proclaimed Clinton political supporter: (conspiracy, fraud)

Neal Ainley: Perry County Bank president (embezzled bank funds for Clinton campaign)

Chris Wade: Whitewater real estate broker (multiple loan fraud). Bill Clinton pardoned.

Larry Kuca: Madison real estate agent (multiple loan fraud)

Robert W. Palmer: Madison appraiser (conspiracy). Bill Clinton pardoned.

John Latham: Madison Bank CEO (bank fraud)

Eugene Fitzhugh: Whitewater defendant (multiple bribery)

Charles Matthews: Whitewater defendant (bribery)

Ultimately the Clintons were never charged, but 15 other persons were convicted of more than 40 crimes, including Bill Clinton's successor as Governor, who was removed from office.[40]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whitewater_%28controversy%29#Convictions

or,

https://web.archive.org/web/20090326122112/http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whitewater_%28controversy%29



That's just one example.

Least one forget Janet Reno and her ineptitude and her pickup.  Evil


Exactly. All those folks they got, BUT, AS BAD AS THEY WANTED THEM, they DID NOT find anything indictable on the Clintons. They kept that "investigation" going for 5 years at a cost to the American taxpayers of over $50 Million, and at the end they had a lie about consensual sex between two adults. PERIOD! Other than that,,,,NADA, NOTHING, ZILCH, ZIPPO, BUPKIS, GOOSE EGGS. ETC., ETC., ETC.
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« Reply #69 on: Nov 08, 2017, 07:03PM »

Interesting how many were pardoned though.
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« Reply #70 on: Nov 08, 2017, 07:39PM »

The whole POINT of that Whitewater investigation was to get the Clintons and they came up with nothing.

The four pardons Clinton gave were all after they had served their sentences. (Gee, thanks Bill! This will look nice framed.)

Future FBI director... James Comey... was appointed to investigate all those last minute pardons and found nothing illegal going on.
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« Reply #71 on: Nov 08, 2017, 07:59PM »

Badger, your desperation is showing.

The events that gave rise to the Whitewater investigations go back literally decades. If you have a bad enough president (and you do) I guess you take what you get.

When I was born, the president was Eisenhower. He was a great president. He wasn't trying to relitigate Harding's Teapot Dome scandal, which would have been of a similar vintage, because he didn't have to.

As I said, your desperation is showing. If you've got a bad guy, you're stuck with a bad argument.
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« Reply #72 on: Nov 08, 2017, 08:45PM »

Harding was lucky to be dead. We'll probably have Bill and Hillary to kick around for another 20 years.
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« Reply #73 on: Nov 08, 2017, 09:24PM »

Did somebody say Harding? You may have seen this, although it doesn’t go that far back:

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« Reply #74 on: Nov 09, 2017, 04:19AM »

Did somebody say Harding? You may have seen this, although it doesn’t go that far back:
 

Problem is, we're actually in a largely post-fact culture--a culture that fosters and honors and cherishes the most intense intellectual cowardice, and the proud rejection of honesty. In some very popular and powerful social institutions it's the highest of virtues, without which you cannot please that institution's version of the Ultimate [Inevident] Authority.
 
Show such a person a fact he doesn't like or an idea that challenges his sensibilities and he'll hide behind a label, which works for such a shallow mind as a shield--an excuse to ignore anything and everything that might not affirm him. Such facts to such profoundly frail psyches are Fake News. There's no actual standard other than whether or not they feel good about it--whether or not it affirms their personal sentiments.
 
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« Reply #75 on: Nov 09, 2017, 08:32AM »

Did somebody say Harding? You may have seen this, although it doesn’t go that far back:



That's because all the federal prosecutors are liberal democrats, and we know they protect their own!!!!  If you don't believe me, look it up (but give me a few minutes to post this to Facebook, Twitter and Breibart before you start looking!)  If you can't find it, you obviously aren't looking in the right places!
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« Reply #76 on: Nov 09, 2017, 11:29AM »

... give me a few minutes ...
Thank you.  Hi

Should I be sitting on the edge of my seat, or will light drumming of fingertips on the table suffice?

@BvB, you may have seen a piece by Sam “two fathoms” Clemens (might be in “Innocents Abroad”, so late nineteenth century?) where he tells of meeting a supremely accomplished BS artist, capable of producing a galloping firehose of detailed fictitious cases supporting his theses. Now we have a world-wide web propagating noise just as fast as signal.
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« Reply #77 on: Nov 09, 2017, 11:51AM »

Here is the basis for that earlier infographic:

From Kevin G Shinnick:
“I made a comment recently where I claimed that Republican administrations had been much more criminally corrupt over the last 50 plus years than the Democrats. I was challenged (dared actually) to prove it. So I did a bit of research and when I say a bit I mean it didn’t take long and there is no comparison.

When comparing criminal indictments of those serving in the executive branch of presidential administrations, it’s so lopsided as to be ridiculous. Yet all I ever hear about is how supposedly “corrupt” the Democrats are. So why don’t we break it down by president and the numbers?

Obama (D) – 8 yrs in office. Zero criminal indictments, zero convictions and zero prison sentences. So the next time somebody describes the Obama administration as “scandal free” they aren’t speaking wishfully, they’re simply telling the truth.
Bush, George W. (R) – 8 yrs in office. 16 criminal indictments. 16 convictions. 9 prison sentences.
Clinton (D) – 8 yrs in office. 2 criminal indictments. One conviction. One prison sentence. That’s right nearly 8 yrs of investigations. Tens of millions spent and 30 yrs of claiming them the most corrupt ever and there was exactly one person convicted of a crime.
Bush, George H. W. (R) – 4 yrs in office. One indictment. One conviction. One prison sentence.
Reagan (R) – 8 yrs in office. 26 criminal indictments. 16 convictions. 8 prison sentences.
Carter (D) – 4 yrs in office. One indictment. Zero convictions and zero prison sentences.
Ford (R) – 4 yrs in office. One indictment and one conviction. One prison sentence.
Nixon (R) – 6 yrs in office. 76 criminal indictments. 55 convictions. 15 prison sentences.
Johnson (D) – 5 yrs in office. Zero indictments. Zero convictions. Zero prison sentences.

So, let’s see where that leaves us. In the last 53 years, Democrats have been in the Oval Office for 25 of those years, while Republicans held it for 28. In their 25 yrs in office Democrats had a total of three executive branch officials indicted with one conviction and one prison sentence. That’s one whole executive branch official convicted of a crime in two and a half decades of Democrat leadership.
In the 28 yrs that Republicans have held office over the last 53 yrs they have had a total of (a drum roll would be more than appropriate), 120 criminal indictments of executive branch officials. 89 criminal convictions and 34 prison sentences handed down. That’s more prison sentences than years in office since 1968 for Republicans. If you want to count articles of impeachment as indictments (they aren’t really but we can count them as an action), both sides get one more. However, Clinton wasn’t found guilty while Nixon resigned and was pardoned by Ford (and a pardon carries with it a legal admission of guilt on the part of the pardoned). So those only serve to make Republicans look even worse.

With everything going on with Trump and his people right now, it’s a safe bet Republicans are gonna be padding their numbers a bit real soon.

So let’s just go over the numbers one more time, shall we? 120 indictments for Republicans. 89 convictions, and 34 prison sentences. Those aren’t “feelings” or “alternate facts.” Those are simply the stats by the numbers. Republicans are, and have been for my entire lifetime, the most criminally corrupt party to hold the office of the presidency.
So those are the actual numbers. Feel free to copy and paste!”
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« Reply #78 on: Nov 09, 2017, 12:26PM »


Reagan (R) – 8 yrs in office. 26 criminal indictments. 16 convictions. 8 prison sentences.



And there probably would have been more convictions if George HW Bush hadn't given a bunch of Iran Contra pardons.
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« Reply #79 on: Nov 10, 2017, 07:22AM »

Law professor Seth Abramson gives long list of troubles in Carter Page's testimony. (Each conveniently prefaced with "BOMBSHELL")

https://twitter.com/SethAbramson/status/927999713714081799
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« Reply #80 on: Nov 10, 2017, 08:18AM »

Another lawyer's take on Carter Page...

(numerous tweets to scroll through)

https://twitter.com/SLSmith000/status/927948561400172544
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« Reply #81 on: Nov 10, 2017, 01:38PM »

What sort of country has high officials who would kidnap and sell someone for $15 Million?

Just to get the money, with no foreign policy goal being served.

Iceland? No.  Togo? No....

It's the United States! (Allegedly)

WSJ: Mueller Probing If Flynn Part Of Lucrative Plot To Kidnap Turkish Cleric

Quote
Special counsel Robert Mueller is investigating the role played by former national security adviser Michael Flynn in an alleged plot to forcibly remove a Muslim cleric living legally in the U.S. to Turkey in exchange for millions of dollars, the Wall Street Journal reported Friday.

The alleged plot described by the Journal involves a direct quid quo, in which Flynn and his son, Michael Flynn, Jr., would receive up to $15 million for successfully delivering Fetullah Gulen to the Turkish government.



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« Reply #82 on: Nov 10, 2017, 05:17PM »

If team jerseys aren't proof of collusion, I don't know what is.

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« Reply #83 on: Nov 11, 2017, 05:04AM »

If team jerseys aren't proof of collusion, I don't know what is.



Checking in with the boss. Getting his marching orders for the next 6 months.
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« Reply #84 on: Nov 11, 2017, 05:41AM »

If team jerseys aren't proof of collusion, I don't know what is.



Would it have been better for him to bow down? Like a certain other president would have done?
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« Reply #85 on: Nov 11, 2017, 05:50AM »

Would it have been better for him to bow down? Like a certain other president would have done?

Don't see anybody else bowing, why should he?

Incidentally, these seem like lab coats.  Note that Putin is wearing a shirt and tie under his.  What is Trump wearing?
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« Reply #86 on: Nov 11, 2017, 05:55AM »

Don't see anybody else bowing, why should he?

Incidentally, these seem like lab coats.  Note that Putin is wearing a shirt and tie under his.  What is Trump wearing?

I don't have a clue about this garb at this meeting. It does look like standard Communist uniform among leaders. Hillary dresses like this all the time, not at meetings, but everywhere. Well, we know she is a Communist, so it makes more sense than Trump wearing Communist gear. 
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« Reply #87 on: Nov 11, 2017, 06:02AM »

I don't have a clue about this garb at this meeting. It does look like standard Communist uniform among leaders. Hillary dresses like this all the time, not at meetings, but everywhere. Well, we know she is a Communist, so it makes more sense than Trump wearing Communist gear. 

Hillary wears pants suits.  Much more expensive ones than Communist women do.  She's a high powered lawyer and dresses like one.

I think this was taken at a factory visit.  Sometimes the garments are intended to protect the wearer's clothing from the things in the factory and sometimes the garments are intended to protect the things in the factory from stuff on the wearer.  In electronics plants, it's more often the latter.  I've worn garments like this (even have a few in the closet, but none that nice blue).  Usually I take off my suitcoat and wear it like Putin.  Trump looks like he's a flasher.
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« Reply #88 on: Nov 11, 2017, 06:39AM »

They wear the traditional garb of the host country for the opening photo-op/ ceremony of this event everytime they hold it.
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« Reply #89 on: Nov 11, 2017, 06:45AM »

They wear the traditional garb of the host country for the opening photo-op/ ceremony of this event everytime they hold it.

This looks like a publicity shot of the Economic Summit in Viet-Nam.  Nobody else is wearing those blue coats, and it's not either Vietnamese folk costumes or current Communist wear.

Also, what's the emblem on the collar on Trump's coat?  A medal for crotch grabbing? Evil
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« Reply #90 on: Nov 11, 2017, 07:25AM »

This looks like a publicity shot of the Economic Summit in Viet-Nam.  Nobody else is wearing those blue coats, and it's not either Vietnamese folk costumes or current Communist wear.

Also, what's the emblem on the collar on Trump's coat?  A medal for crotch grabbing? Evil

Did BJ Bill Clinton wear a BJ emblem? Or was he more dishonest than Trump? At least Trump brags about his, but apparently Bill doesn't or Hillary would have him killed. LOL!
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« Reply #91 on: Nov 11, 2017, 08:56AM »

I did a little research (wish you had a proper cite for the picture, Robcat, it would have saved me a LOT of time).  Apparently it was before the formal dinner at the Asia-Pacific Summit.  Only about half the guys wore those blue coats and the PM of Vietnam was one of them.  Women were not required to wear them at all.  The Australian did not, nor did the Sultan of Brunei.  The coat resembles the "Hawaiian Shirt" or the shirt worn in many countries formerly of the Spanish Empire (like the Philippines or Mexico).  Note that the PM of Vietnam has a similar emblem on his coat.  Maybe Trump's Protocol advisor suggested he wear it as a shirt.  It probably would have looked funny with his tie sticking out from the bottom, though :-P
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« Reply #92 on: Nov 11, 2017, 10:35AM »

Would it have been better for him to bow down? Like a certain other president would have done?

No, Trump's more of a curtsier:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/donald-trump-saudi-arabia-trip-curtsey-bow-king-salman-gold-medal-honour-barack-obama-bowing-a7747016.html
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« Reply #93 on: Nov 11, 2017, 12:14PM »

The souvenir shirts at those Asia-Pacific meetings are always embarrassing.
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« Reply #94 on: Nov 11, 2017, 05:50PM »

The souvenir shirts at those Asia-Pacific meetings are always embarrassing.

That's why I never go.
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« Reply #95 on: Nov 14, 2017, 02:44PM »

Meanwhile at the other burger stand in DC... Rep Louis Gohmert produced this chart at a hearing to prove Hillary something something Uranium!

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« Reply #96 on: Nov 14, 2017, 04:35PM »

From the Gee, d'ya think? desk...

Trump’s Tweets May Be His Undoing

His careless public comments provide evidence of private communications that would be illegal.
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« Reply #97 on: Nov 14, 2017, 09:19PM »

Ahhh, to gaze into the mind of Donald Stump...

Hello? ... Hello? .... Hello? .... Hello? .... chirp ... chirp ....
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« Reply #98 on: Nov 14, 2017, 11:37PM »

Did BJ Bill Clinton wear a BJ emblem? Or was he more dishonest than Trump? At least Trump brags about his, but apparently Bill doesn't or Hillary would have him killed. LOL!
Wow... I don't even know how to respond... I guess that's my cue to get off the internet for the day :-0
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« Reply #99 on: Nov 15, 2017, 05:07AM »

You can't make this crap up. Our President is an incompetent ***** who has surrounded himself with incompetent ******. God help us........

https://uk.style.yahoo.com/trump-slammed-twitter-tweeting-condolences-112414119.html
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« Reply #100 on: Nov 15, 2017, 05:13AM »

You can't make this crap up. Our President is an incompetent ***** who has surrounded himself with incompetent ******. God help us........
 
https://uk.style.yahoo.com/trump-slammed-twitter-tweeting-condolences-112414119.html

One defense will be that he was intentionally re-consoling the Texas church people, and that will play well with The Deplorables too--The Deplorables see the preferential treatment of WASPs as the base standard of fair and balanced.
 
 --
 
The emperor isn't nude! What are you, unfit for your station? stupid? crazy? a libtard!?! LOL!
The biggest crowd ever for an Emperor's Procession all saw his glorious clothes, and billions were celebrating his grandeur in the streets (he has the most grandeur of any emperor in history).
The emperor's clothes were edited out of the photos by Hillary Clinton and Obama.
The emperor's clothes were being laundered, and he had them on for the later part of his stroll.
The emperor was making a brilliant statement about the leftists trying to take the clothes off our backs.
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« Reply #101 on: Nov 15, 2017, 06:23AM »

You can't make this crap up. Our President is an incompetent ***** who has surrounded himself with incompetent ******. God help us........

https://uk.style.yahoo.com/trump-slammed-twitter-tweeting-condolences-112414119.html

W T F?... M O R O N is a censored word? That's freaking ridiculous!
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« Reply #102 on: Nov 15, 2017, 08:05AM »

"Cretin" and these other synonyms are, however, allowed...

    boob
    idiot
    nerd
    blockhead
    dimwit

    dingbat
    dolt
    dope
    dork
    dumbbell

    dummy
    dunce
    fool
    ignoramus
    imbecile

    loony
    loser
    simpleton
    addlepate
    halfwit

    lamebrain
    mental defective
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« Reply #103 on: Nov 15, 2017, 08:18AM »

dotard.
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« Reply #104 on: Nov 15, 2017, 10:29AM »

W T F?... M O R O N is a censored word? That's freaking ridiculous!

There was an outcry from mental health professionals about that word a few years ago and it was added to the Auto Censor.  Find a synonym.  Lots of them.

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« Reply #105 on: Nov 15, 2017, 10:44AM »

If that mental health correctness continues, eventually we'll have nothing left to inaccurately insult people with.
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« Reply #106 on: Nov 15, 2017, 11:01AM »

There was an outcry from mental health professionals about that word a few years ago and it was added to the Auto Censor. 

So the "mental health professionals" have now taken responsibility for all English language usage?

This is political (?) correctness taken to the extreme.   

"M o r o n" is a perfectly good and long-standing English word.  According to the American Heritage Dictionary, it simply means "A stupid person; a dolt." 

Yes, it was also once a psychology term classifying certain types of retardation, but that classification system is no longer used and the term is now "considered offensive." 

My take: It may be considered offensive as a psychologist's professional classification, but m o r o n remains a perfectly good English word - that should be used with care, and with respect to its history and its modern implications.  Thoughtlessly censoring each use of the word, without regard to its context, is an outrage that reminds me of Soviet-era cropping out-of-favor politicians from photographs. 

Try reading Mark Twain after the modern censors have done their editing!  No thanks. 
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BillO
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« Reply #107 on: Nov 15, 2017, 12:36PM »

There was an outcry from mental health professionals about that word a few years ago and it was added to the Auto Censor.  Find a synonym.  Lots of them.


'Trump' is now a synonym for m o r o n. 
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« Reply #108 on: Nov 15, 2017, 03:54PM »

Bugs Bunny would say:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_Kh7nLplWo
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« Reply #109 on: Nov 18, 2017, 08:40AM »

It increasingly looks like Russian hackers may have affected actual vote totals.


Quote
...Apparently, the Obama administration first caught wind of the attack when the Illinois system was seriously compromised.

Quote
    Illinois became Patient Zero in the government's probe, eventually leading investigators to a hacking pandemic that touched four out of every five U.S. states. Using evidence from the Illinois computer banks, federal agents were able to develop digital "signatures" -- among them, Internet Protocol addresses used by the attackers -- to spot the hackers at work. The signatures were then sent through Homeland Security alerts and other means to every state. Thirty-seven states reported finding traces of the hackers in various systems, according to one of the people familiar with the probe. In two others -- Florida and California -- those traces were found in systems run by a private contractor managing critical election systems.

The Obama people went to condition red; the Department of Homeland Security tried to declare state election systems to be part of our critical national infrastructure, which they clearly are. The Republicans in Congress shot that down. Curiouser and curiouser, some states declined to cooperate fully with DHS...
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« Reply #110 on: Nov 18, 2017, 02:57PM »

I’m beginning to think that Russia attacked the US and America is only now beginning to realize it and that America lost the battle.

Trump’s campaign comments about the election being rigged, his surprise win based on narrow wins in three states, his close ties with Russia and his constant attempts to deflect attention from, indeed, even criminally obstruct, the investigation, together with clear evidence of a Russian influence campaign and perhaps Russia even hacking into voting machines.



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BillO
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« Reply #111 on: Nov 18, 2017, 08:05PM »

I’m beginning to think that Russia attacked the US and America is only now beginning to realize it and that America lost the battle.

Trump’s campaign comments about the election being rigged, his surprise win based on narrow wins in three states, his close ties with Russia and his constant attempts to deflect attention from, indeed, even criminally obstruct, the investigation, together with clear evidence of a Russian influence campaign and perhaps Russia even hacking into voting machines.




We Canadians, we use a lot of comas, don't we?

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« Reply #112 on: Yesterday at 04:17 AM »

Commas too.
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« Reply #113 on: Yesterday at 06:06 AM »

Commas too.

Yes, but I prefer comas.  So relaxing.
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« Reply #114 on: Yesterday at 08:49 AM »

I could have used semi-comas. Perhaps I would have realized the second sentence isn’t actually a sentence. In any event, it all is beginning to look like America was attacked and that it lost.
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