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The Trombone ForumPractice BreakChit-ChatPurely Politics(Moderators: bhcordova, RedHotMama, BFW) Nothing burger becomes a something burger
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robcat2075

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« Reply #40 on: Nov 05, 2017, 12:04PM »

Commerce Sec hiding wealth and Russian business ties with Cayman Island dodges...

Commerce Secretary’s Offshore Ties to Putin ‘Cronies’

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After becoming commerce secretary, Wilbur L. Ross Jr. retained investments in a shipping firm he once controlled that has significant business ties to a Russian oligarch subject to American sanctions and President Vladimir V. Putin’s son-in-law, according to newly disclosed documents.

The shipper, Navigator Holdings, earns millions of dollars a year transporting gas for one of its top clients, a giant Russian energy company called Sibur, whose owners include the oligarch and Mr. Putin’s family member. Despite selling off numerous other holdings to join the Trump administration and spearhead its “America first” trade policy, Mr. Ross kept an investment in Navigator, which increased its business dealings with Sibur even as the West sought to punish Russia’s energy sector over Mr. Putin’s incursions into Ukraine.

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Mr. Ross’s stake in Navigator has been held by a chain of companies in the Cayman Islands, one of several tax havens where much of his wealth, estimated at more than $2 billion, has been tied to similar investment vehicles. Details of these arrangements surfaced in a cache of leaked files from Appleby, one of the world’s largest offshore law firms, which administered some 50 companies and partnerships in the Caymans and elsewhere connected to Mr. Ross.

The Russians must be appealing guys if so many Trump friends just can't quit them.
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« Reply #41 on: Nov 05, 2017, 01:38PM »


We should have let the South secede.

Don't kid yourself. People can be manipulated anywhere.
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Baron von Bone
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« Reply #42 on: Nov 05, 2017, 08:08PM »

Don't kid yourself. People can be manipulated anywhere.

Yup ... and different inclinations have a whole lot to do with what sort of manipulation works or doesn't, and right wing authoritarian types are in fact more easily manipulated than most of the rest of us. None of which even suggests that anyone can't be manipulated. In fact I'd argue that those who think they can't be manipulated (common in the arrogance of proud dogmatism so popular in the Deep Red, and probably more so specifically in the Southeast) just make it easier. The guy who thinks he's too smart to be fooled is the guy the con artist particularly likes.
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« Reply #43 on: Nov 06, 2017, 08:17AM »


This morning's "what next?" dump...

Russia Puts the Squeeze on Don Jr.


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That notorious Russian lawyer who met with Don Jr., Jared Kushner, and Paul Manafort in Trump Tower in June 2016 is talking again. Natalia Veselnitskaya gave a two and a half hour interview yesterday in Moscow in which she claimed that Don Jr. had told her that key sanctions against Russia might be lifted in what seems to have been a tacit exchange for help in the election.

Vesenitskaya can't be assumed to be truthful, but...

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That is a huge, huge detail – if it’s true.

Even if you assume it is true, there’s no reason for Veselnitskaya to say it. No one is forcing her to say anything, certainly no legal authority in the United States. So whether it’s true or not almost seems beside the point. The real significance is that she’s suggesting something highly, highly damaging.

Here’s another possibility to consider. There were other Veselnitskaya associates at that meeting in addition to her. Why do we think one of them wasn’t wearing a wire? There’s nothing about Don Jr., the Trump organization or the Trump campaign that gives us any reason to think any of these people would have been searched for such a listening device. It’s certainly possible that she or one of her colleagues have proof of what was said in that meeting, something that would leave all three of the key Trump side players vulnerable to blackmail.


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« Reply #44 on: Nov 06, 2017, 09:03AM »

Here's a thought: what is Russia's end game, now that it has been incredibly successful in its influence campaign that saw its favoured candidate elected?

Keep stirring the pot? Or bring Trump down? The former keeps their man in the game, but the latter might be more disruptive. Do you take down the Trump administration man by man? Is it a coincidence that the Paradise Papers from the Appleby firm name Wilbur Ross (are there Russia links to the Paradise Papers?) and now, in the wake of the first indictments, Russia, through NV, suggests in might have more info damaging to DTJr and Kushner.

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Baron von Bone
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« Reply #45 on: Nov 06, 2017, 10:20AM »

This morning's "what next?" dump...

Russia Puts the Squeeze on Don Jr.

 
Quote
That notorious Russian lawyer who met with Don Jr., Jared Kushner, and Paul Manafort in Trump Tower in June 2016 is talking again. Natalia Veselnitskaya gave a two and a half hour interview yesterday in Moscow in which she claimed that Don Jr. had told her that key sanctions against Russia might be lifted in what seems to have been a tacit exchange for help in the election.

Vesenitskaya can't be assumed to be truthful, but...
 
Quote
That is a huge, huge detail – if it’s true.

Even if you assume it is true, there’s no reason for Veselnitskaya to say it. No one is forcing her to say anything, certainly no legal authority in the United States. So whether it’s true or not almost seems beside the point. The real significance is that she’s suggesting something highly, highly damaging.

Here’s another possibility to consider. There were other Veselnitskaya associates at that meeting in addition to her. Why do we think one of them wasn’t wearing a wire? There’s nothing about Don Jr., the Trump organization or the Trump campaign that gives us any reason to think any of these people would have been searched for such a listening device. It’s certainly possible that she or one of her colleagues have proof of what was said in that meeting, something that would leave all three of the key Trump side players vulnerable to blackmail.

Of course it wouldn't be surprising in the slightest if what Veselnitskaya's claiming is true, but the idea she doesn't have any reason to say it is silly. The whole issue is the huge Russian campaign to manipulate and divide the American and generally Western World public (mostly via the more easily manipulated people--the far right, esp. the Alt Right™/Alternative Facts Crüe). We can't think this campaign is a Thing and then turn around and pretend there's somehow no motive for Russian operative types to participate ... eh?
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« Reply #46 on: Nov 06, 2017, 11:01AM »

Here's a thought: what is Russia's end game, now that it has been incredibly successful in its influence campaign that saw its favoured candidate elected?

Keep stirring the pot? Or bring Trump down? The former keeps their man in the game, but the latter might be more disruptive. Do you take down the Trump administration man by man? Is it a coincidence that the Paradise Papers from the Appleby firm name Wilbur Ross (are there Russia links to the Paradise Papers?) and now, in the wake of the first indictments, Russia, through NV, suggests in might have more info damaging to DTJr and Kushner.


Chaos is their game.  Keeps us busy and not able to spend time stopping Putin from doing whatever he wants.  Have we mentioned the Russian soldiers in the Ukraine recently?  Could we lead a successful challenge to them with the international community?  Just keep poking things one at a time and keep destroying the ability to determine the truth.  Heck, a good amount of what they leak out is probably fake.  But enough of it is true that there is no way to determine what is true and what is false anymore.

Cheers,
Andy
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« Reply #47 on: Nov 06, 2017, 11:01AM »



Of course it wouldn't be surprising in the slightest if what Veselnitskaya's claiming is true, but the idea she doesn't have any reason to say it is silly.

What he means is, no innocent reason.
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« Reply #48 on: Nov 06, 2017, 03:51PM »

Heck, a good amount of what they leak out is probably fake.  But enough of it is true that there is no way to determine what is true and what is false anymore.

Hogwash. People just have to stop getting info from their favorite color of the week clubs and learn how to be critical of new information. It's not that hard.
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elmsandr

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« Reply #49 on: Nov 06, 2017, 06:13PM »

Hogwash. People just have to stop getting info from their favorite color of the week clubs and learn how to be critical of new information. It's not that hard.
Not hogwash at all.  Look at it this way, the russian Lawyer lady has printed three different stories to various outlets in the last week, all with different versions of the story.  It is exhausting to constantly question every element when there is no way to independently verify any of it.

There are a million ways to lie and only one version of the truth, they exhaust your time and effort with the lies.  Look how many times the stupid uranium deal has gone around the horn.  There is nothing new to the case, but it keeps re-surfacing.  There are only so many pages in a paper and minutes in a broadcast.  Time spent there is taken from actual stories and information.

Cheers,
Andy
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« Reply #50 on: Nov 06, 2017, 09:40PM »



Carter Page's testimony is filled with bombshells — and supports key portions of the Steele dossier



Trump campaign officials tried to swap access to Trump for favors from Russia at least 3 times

Do you think they'll be able to get away with saying Donald Jr. was just a coffee boy?

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Robert Holmén

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« Reply #51 on: Nov 06, 2017, 11:00PM »

hey DD, are you reading this?  Way cool
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MrPillow
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« Reply #52 on: Nov 06, 2017, 11:11PM »



Do you think they'll be able to get away with saying Donald Jr. was just a coffee boy?



Or a covfefe boy?
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Andrew Meronek

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« Reply #53 on: Nov 07, 2017, 04:55AM »

Not hogwash at all.  Look at it this way, the russian Lawyer lady has printed three different stories to various outlets in the last week, all with different versions of the story.  It is exhausting to constantly question every element when there is no way to independently verify any of it.

There are a million ways to lie and only one version of the truth, they exhaust your time and effort with the lies.  Look how many times the stupid uranium deal has gone around the horn.  There is nothing new to the case, but it keeps re-surfacing.  There are only so many pages in a paper and minutes in a broadcast.  Time spent there is taken from actual stories and information.

Cheers,
Andy

You have to learn how to evaluate sources. Assume that a source that is trustworthy will continue to be so, and do not continue trust in sources that publish rubbish. Lying propaganda is only effective when consumers don't punish publication sources for hogwash.

It's the most blatant when people keep going back to some hogwash source not because they trust it but because they like its message regardless of truth. We see that there is a price to such laziness. It should be a part of growing up and being an adult that we consider factual publications worth more than what those we'd only like to be true.
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« Reply #54 on: Nov 07, 2017, 05:29AM »

You have to learn how to evaluate sources. Assume that a source that is trustworthy will continue to be so, and do not continue trust in sources that publish rubbish. Lying propaganda is only effective when consumers don't punish publication sources for hogwash.

It's the most blatant when people keep going back to some hogwash source not because they trust it but because they like its message regardless of truth. We see that there is a price to such laziness. It should be a part of growing up and being an adult that we consider factual publications worth more than what those we'd only like to be true.
When the source is the press secretary at the white house, it has to be discussed by even robust news sources.  Even if it is a blatant lie.  It wears you down and wastes your time which is still limited.

Again, how often do we have to hear a soundbite and have a correction on the facts?  There are only so many hours in the day and it can even tax the most discriminating of consumers.

"But her e-mails!"

Cheers,
Andy
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« Reply #55 on: Nov 07, 2017, 10:03AM »

When the source is the press secretary at the white house, it has to be discussed by even robust news sources.  Even if it is a blatant lie.  It wears you down and wastes your time which is still limited.


Frankly, I just wish the MSM would call a lie a lie.  None of this "untruth" or "misdirection" or "mistruth" or "verbal combativeness" BS.  When she lies, when Trump lies, whenever *anyone* lies, just call it a lie.  Call it a lie, publish the verified truth, and move on.  If they did to to Sarah Huckabee, every question at the press conferences would be "Why did you lie about X on DATE?" Or, they'd simply cut off the tap.
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« Reply #56 on: Nov 07, 2017, 10:09AM »

What he means is, no innocent reason.

The implication is that there's no reason for her to lie, so her testimony is credible--she has no reason to lie (about implicating DJJ).
 
I think that's a selectively naive take.
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« Reply #57 on: Nov 07, 2017, 10:16AM »

More on Commerce Sec Wilbur Ross. The greatest indignity of all...

Forbes: Wilbur Ross ‘Lied’ About Being A Billionaire


The Case of Wilbur Ross' Phantom $2 Billion

Quote
...So began the mystery of Wilbur Ross' missing $2 billion. And after one month of digging, Forbes is confident it has found the answer: That money never existed. It seems clear that Ross lied to us, the latest in an apparent sequence of fibs, exaggerations, omissions, fabrications and whoppers that have been going on with Forbes since 2004. In addition to just padding his ego, Ross' machinations helped bolster his standing in a way that translated into business opportunities. And based on our interviews with ten former employees at Ross' private equity firm, WL Ross & Co., who all confirmed parts of the same story line, his penchant for misleading extended to colleagues and investors, resulting in millions of dollars in fines, tens of millions refunded to backers and numerous lawsuits. Additionally, according to six U.S. senators, Ross failed to initially mention 19 suits in response to a questionnaire during his confirmation process.


Ever wonder what Ross' connection to Trump is? He's the one who negotiated the deal that let Trump keep a 50% stake in his casinos even after he had run them into bankruptcy.
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« Reply #58 on: Nov 07, 2017, 10:53AM »


The implication is that there's no reason for her to lie, so her testimony is credible--she has no reason to lie (about implicating DJJ).
 
I think that's a selectively naive take.

No, that is not his implication, and you know that.

"Even if you assume it is true..."

I think you've heard that phrase before and are aware of why it is used.

Among English speakers, the phrase "Even if you assume it is true..." indicates that the speaker does not, himself, accept something as credible but is only temporarily allowing the rhetorical "you" that possibility to explore why it doesn't matter in regards to the larger point he is making: she is talking now as part of a Russian maneuver to influence; not because she is some random chatterbox, not because some random journo happened to ask her questions only now but because it is useful to them to put these claims out there now.
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« Reply #59 on: Nov 07, 2017, 11:07AM »

On former Trump foreign policy advisor Carter Page's congressional testimony...

Basically a nut.

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I found it difficult to discern whether he has some sort of cognitive deficit causing an inability to focus or whether he was simply trying to kick dust in people’s faces with nonsensical digressions. My one consistent impression is that he thinks he’s a good deal more clever than he is. You could probably guess that by his decision to testify without a lawyer present.

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A good deal of the first half of his testimony was tied to a convoluted explanation of why he apparently failed to turn over a substantial number of documents he was ordered to turn over to the House committee. (His argument did not sound legally tenable.)

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The text reads like a guy who thinks he’s being really clever and skating right past people with canny interpretations when he’s clearly just lying and doing so in a position of great legal vulnerability.

Clearly Page, like Papadopoulos, is basically a goof. But like Papadopoulos, I suspect he’s trouble for the Trump inner circle and that there’s a lot more we still don’t know.

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