Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length

 
Advanced search

1087082 Posts in 71982 Topics- by 19233 Members - Latest Member: Midnight1961
Jump to:  
The Trombone ForumTeaching & LearningComposition, Arranging and Theory(Moderator: zemry) Mendelssohn, "Festgesang zum Gutenbergfest"
Pages: [1]   Go Down
Print
Author Topic: Mendelssohn, "Festgesang zum Gutenbergfest"  (Read 408 times)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Stewbones43

*
Offline Offline

Location: Somerset U.K.
Joined: Mar 15, 2005
Posts: 2693

View Profile
« on: Oct 30, 2017, 08:43AM »

I conduct a local rehearsal orchestra and I am wanting to include this piece in our Christmas play through. Here is a link to the score from ISMLP

http://hz.imslp.info/files/imglnks/usimg/2/26/IMSLP51784-PMLP107345-Mendelssohn_WoO_9.pdf

My idea is to use clarinets and bassoons on the vocal parts and then the brass section can cover the brass lines but, when I start to put the parts into Sibelius, the play-back is very un-Mendelssohn, more like Berg, Cage or Schoenberg. There is something wrong with the transpositions for some of the instruments and I cannot work out what is wrong.

Can anyone enlighten me, please?

Cheers

Stewbones
Logged

Trombone means big trumpet-does that mean it is louder?
trombonemetal

*
Offline Offline

Location: NH
Joined: Jan 22, 2009
Posts: 191

View Profile
« Reply #1 on: Oct 30, 2017, 09:56AM »

Are you trying to make a whole new score or just turn the tenor parts into clarinet parts?
Logged

Kris Danielsen
Boston University Doctoral Candidate
robcat2075

*
Offline Offline

Location: Dallas, Texas
Joined: Apr 19, 2009
Posts: 6298

View Profile
« Reply #2 on: Oct 30, 2017, 10:00AM »

My first very quick guess is that it has something to do with the discrepancy in key signatures between the vocal parts and the brass.

Note that the vocalists  have one sharp but the "Trombe in C" has no sharps (!). Perhaps your Trombe line has one sharp by automatic default and when you entered an F it is being played as an F#.

Possibly similar errors have crept in on the other brass parts which all have no key signature even though modern notation would assign key signatures to transposing instruments.
Logged

Robert Holmén

Hear me as I Play My Horn


Get your Popper, Dotzauer, or Kummer play-alongs!
trombonemetal

*
Offline Offline

Location: NH
Joined: Jan 22, 2009
Posts: 191

View Profile
« Reply #3 on: Oct 30, 2017, 12:54PM »

It was common to leave key signatures out for brass back then. Things were different before valves...

Sibelius usually has a “trumpet in X (no key)” option in the instruments panel that should fix this. You can then input the notes with the score transposed with out having to worry about accidentals. They should all work. After you’ve input everything then create a “trumpet in X (with key)” and copy to that, or to whatever instrument type you want.
Logged

Kris Danielsen
Boston University Doctoral Candidate
Stewbones43

*
Offline Offline

Location: Somerset U.K.
Joined: Mar 15, 2005
Posts: 2693

View Profile
« Reply #4 on: Oct 30, 2017, 02:57PM »

Thanks for the replies.

I am trying to put all the parts onto the score so that I can then print off the individual parts in the most sensible keys and clefs:- Clarinets playing the tenor vocal parts at pitch so using A clarinets to get the range. Put all trumpet parts in Bb and all horn parts in F and then trombone 2 in tenor clef.

What I have done is to prepare a score with the instruments shown in the keys they are written in, just like the IMSLP version but with each part having its own stave. I can then change the parts to suite the keys/clef as described above.

However, when I try to play the music back it is very discordant. I then used the "transpose score" button to put everything into Concert C to allow me to see the harmonies easily but there are some very strange accidentals causing the discordant sounds.

What I was hoping for was that someone with more knowledge that I have, might be able to tell me where the problems lie and a simple fix to cure them otherwise I have to go through the whole concert pitch score checking every chord and making the necessary adjustments; a rather time consuming process!!!!!

Sibelius does have the trumpet and horn in A#/Fb (no key) options but not for C and when you use a C trumpet or horn part it takes the key signature like all concert pitch instruments do.

Cheers

Stewbones
Logged

Trombone means big trumpet-does that mean it is louder?
robcat2075

*
Offline Offline

Location: Dallas, Texas
Joined: Apr 19, 2009
Posts: 6298

View Profile
« Reply #5 on: Oct 30, 2017, 04:13PM »

Of course... you are quite sure you have the transposing staffs set to the right transposition.

D trumpet sounds a step higher than written
G horn sounds a fourth lower than written
 
And they don't have some invisible key signature acting on them.

It should be easy to check if you solo each line and compare what is sounded to what should be heard.



Just to try, I input the first two measures as notated into MuseScore and got a harmonious whole when the transpositions were set right.

The MusicXML file should be importable into Sibelius.

http://www.brilliantisland.com/music/Mennd.xml
Logged

Robert Holmén

Hear me as I Play My Horn


Get your Popper, Dotzauer, or Kummer play-alongs!
Ken Kugler
*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: Apr 22, 2009
Posts: 34

View Profile
« Reply #6 on: Oct 30, 2017, 05:06PM »

Stewbones,

The score seems correct but I think you're getting hung up in the transpositions. Also the score doesn't identify each line after the first page of each movement. I think the solution probably isn't simple (it's still quite a bit of labor) but it is logical. The key signature is irrelevant it's about the correct interval from concert pitch.

Also the score order changes from movement to movement. The second mvt. only has one trumpet line so the second line below the choir is Corni in G instead of trumpet. Since the lines aren't indicated it's easy to be on the wrong line. If you print out the score you could write in the instruments.

You could enter all the parts as written in a Concert score and then transpose each line appropriately (so you end up with a concert score) or you could do a transposed score and enter the parts as written and play it back in concert.

The trombone and choir parts are basically done so if you enter them as written your 50% done. When you enter the other parts if they don't agree with the trombones/choir something is amiss.

Here's the tricky part, where the instruments sound versus where they're notated.

1) choir, trombones, ophicleide - sounds as written.

2) tromba in C: sounds as written.

3) tromba in D: sounds a step higher then written (written C sounds D above)

3A) tromba in Es (mvt. 2,3 & 4) - Eb part sounds a minor third above where it is written

Corni - Think of them as modern notation top line Horns 1 & 3, bottom line horns 2 & 4

4) Corni in G - sounds a 4th below where written (written E sounds B below)

5) Corni in C - pitches are correct as written but sounds an octave lower

Zweites Orchester (looks like an antiphonal brass choir)

6) tromba in C: sounds as written.

7) Corni in D: Sounds up a step and down an octave (or think of it as sounding down a minor 7th) G above the treble staff sounds A in the middle of the staff

8) Corni in Es: Eb part - BUT - Sounds a minor 6th below written pitch (G above the treble staff sounds Bb in the middle of the staff)
Logged
Pages: [1]   Go Up
Print
Jump to: