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Author Topic: Shooting in Texas  (Read 3664 times)
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BGuttman
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« on: Nov 05, 2017, 04:14PM »

Another senseless killing.  This time in a small town in Texas.  The shooter appears to be neither Muslim nor Hispanic.  Used a Rueger AR-15 style weapon.

http://www.wbur.org/npr/562217575/multiple-casualties-reported-after-gunman-opens-fire-in-south-texas-church
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Bruce Guttman
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« Reply #1 on: Nov 05, 2017, 04:31PM »

White shooter? Ex-military?

Move along. "Too soon for politics" and all that.

If the gun was legally owned then, "we can't criminalize all the legal owners because of one person!"

If the gun wasn't legally owned we'll get, "See?  Gun laws don't work!"

Whatever the gun turns out to be, some proposed gun law that didn't happen to cover it will be pointed to to say that new legislation wouldn't have prevented it.




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Robert Holmén

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« Reply #2 on: Nov 05, 2017, 04:33PM »

Here we go again.

Trump soft pedaled his condemnation of the shooter in Vegas. Then he went off on the attacker in NYC.

The shooter in Texas? Big surprise, another white male.

And I predict that Trump will soft pedal condemnation of him too.

And until Congressmen are prohibited from taking $$ from lobbyists, gun laws will never be addressed.  Lawmakers are all bought and paid for. They do NOT represent us. They are owned.
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Ellrod

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« Reply #3 on: Nov 05, 2017, 04:57PM »

Is this news?
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BGuttman
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« Reply #4 on: Nov 05, 2017, 05:32PM »

Is this news?

It happened today.

Shooter went into a church.  Currently 26 known dead and about the same number wounded.

As the shooter was leaving the church, a local resident brandished a rifle and caused the shooter to drop his weapon ("good person with a gun"?).  Shooter then got in a car and drove off pursued by local person with gun.  Car crashed and shooter is now dead.  Killed by local person?  Dunno.
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Bruce Guttman
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« Reply #5 on: Nov 05, 2017, 08:09PM »

Already trying to claim it was "Antifa!"

Was the Texas Church Shooter an Antifa Member Who Vowed to Start Civil War?
Reports that the perpetrator carried an Antifa flag and told churchgoers “this is a communist revolution” are fake news.

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Robert Holmén

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« Reply #6 on: Nov 05, 2017, 08:25PM »

And now I read bs posts online that assert the shooter had converted to Islam

Sad
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robcat2075

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« Reply #7 on: Nov 05, 2017, 08:27PM »

Did a year in military prison for an attack on his wife and child.

https://www.rawstory.com/2017/11/texas-church-shooter-devin-kelleys-court-martial-was-for-violence-against-his-wife-and-child/


I did not know that a Dishonorable Discharge meant you could not purchase firearms again.  That sounds sensible.

Quote
Matt Pearce of The Los Angeles Times reported Sunday night that Kelley’s 2014 Bad Conduct Discharge took place after his arrest, a trial by a court martial and a year in military prison for assaulting his wife and their child.

Unfortunately, a Bad Conduct Discharge doesn't count. He could still buy anything, apparently.
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Robert Holmén

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BGuttman
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« Reply #8 on: Nov 05, 2017, 08:28PM »

Imagine what we'd see if the shooter had been Black or Hispanic! >:(

Everybody is prejudging what this guy was on/after.  I'm sure as more of the background is revealed we'll get a better picture of what is going on.  Rest assured ISIS will be happy to claim responsibility.
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Bruce Guttman
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« Reply #9 on: Nov 06, 2017, 02:56AM »

I fear that the likely outcome of the 2 most recent publicised incidents, (the shooting in Texas and the Terror incident in NY), is that it will become harder to hire a van than it will be to get a gun.
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« Reply #10 on: Nov 06, 2017, 05:02AM »

The mantra on the morning news was "we've got to do something."  Whether it works or not.  I find that troubling but maybe that's just me.

I do think there is a failure to do root cause analysis, in favor of deciding that the obvious reason is correct, one that coincidentally supports some internal biases.

The party line from one side of the debate:  The US has more shootings than anybody else, the cause is easy access to firearms, the cure is really easy, just reduce access. 

We're all familiar with the other side.

I propose suggest a different summary.  The US has more killings of all kinds than other industrialized countries, we are a culture that finds it easy to kill.  (even our non-firearms killings exceed other countries) The US has a gun culture embedded that means when we do kill we preferentially reach for a firearm.  The gun culture is a mindset that does not depend so much on easy access. 

Dealing with those two issues cannot be a short term fix, and access is probably not even all that relevant.  However attacking access (and the predictable defense) is the only short term solution obvious to a nation that thinks do something, anything, don't much care what. 
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Tim Richardson
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« Reply #11 on: Nov 06, 2017, 05:09AM »


More Russian seeds of divisiveness?
 
Sure seems in character anyway--it's important to angle most of the more overt incitement of fear and anger and such where it will bear more fruit of the desired spirit, so to speak.
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« Reply #12 on: Nov 06, 2017, 05:18AM »


It isn't hard to find on Facebook at this second people diligently folding this new lie into their weaponised worldviews, posting vicious and ill-thought-out screeds about "Libtards", etc. The world is full of people that are more interested in hating some other group than in seeking truth, and is also distressingly well-stocked with cynical liars who see stoking that hate as a route to personal gain.

We'll get the internet working sensibly in time, but we certainly haven't yet.
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Dave Taylor

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« Reply #13 on: Nov 06, 2017, 05:22AM »

We'll get the internet working sensibly in time, but we certainly haven't yet.

I'm not so sure.
 
Seems we have to get our personal demons under control first, and I'm pretty skeptical of that happening on any kind of scale any time remotely soon.
 
On the brighter side it is a powerful lesson of science and critical thinking, so if the usual pattern holds the curve of progress continually increases (just not sure if we're far at all along the asymptotic flat end of it right now).
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« Reply #14 on: Nov 06, 2017, 05:45AM »

I propose suggest a different summary.  The US has more killings of all kinds than other industrialized countries, we are a culture that finds it easy to kill.  (even our non-firearms killings exceed other countries) The US has a gun culture embedded that means when we do kill we preferentially reach for a firearm.  The gun culture is a mindset that does not depend so much on easy access.

How does that last sentence follow?

We prefer to reach for guns because they are effective at stopping/killing someone, but also because they are easy to get. How do you build an embed a popular mindset on a tool if it is NOT easy to get?

To note, a less charged example: American mindset and cars. We built a whole identity around them. But where they are difficult to have such as big cities, the mindset is far less car centric and more allowing of other modes of transportation than say smaller towns and suburbs where care are easy and the system is built around them.
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« Reply #15 on: Nov 06, 2017, 05:54AM »

My take:
This is one where a dishonorably discharged atheist fired an illegal gun into a gun free zone and was taken down by a good guy with a legal gun.
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« Reply #16 on: Nov 06, 2017, 06:01AM »

My take:
This is one where a dishonorably discharged atheist fired an illegal gun into a gun free zone and was taken down by a good guy with a legal gun.

Churches are not gun free zones in Texas.
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« Reply #17 on: Nov 06, 2017, 06:02AM »

The mantra on the morning news was "we've got to do something."  Whether it works or not.  I find that troubling but maybe that's just me.

No, it's not just you, and it's also far from limited to gun control--any highly evocative kind of event or paradigm comes with the same problem. It also seems closely but inversely related to crisis management--i.e. it often takes a crisis, and when experiencing a crisis we're far less sober in our thinking. It's a pretty problematic relationship of inclinations.
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« Reply #18 on: Nov 06, 2017, 06:03AM »

Churches are not gun free zones in Texas.
This church obviously was a gun free zone, whether mandated by law or not.
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« Reply #19 on: Nov 06, 2017, 06:06AM »

How does that last sentence follow?

We prefer to reach for guns because they are effective at stopping/killing someone, but also because they are easy to get. How do you build an embed a popular mindset on a tool if it is NOT easy to get?



Well, I disagree.  I think you have the order wrong.  We reach for guns because we are a gun culture, not necessarily because they are effective.  We have built a system that has relatively easy access because a gun culture wants it - access didn't produce the gun culture, the gun culture produced access.  
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Tim Richardson
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