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Author Topic: 3bF+ (.525) blow on a smaller horn  (Read 1046 times)
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joshbird
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« on: Nov 13, 2017, 07:35PM »

Hey everyone, so Iím currently doing all my gigs on a 3B+ and itís a fantastic horn. Love how it plays but Iím getting a level of business where I canít afford to burn endurance to muscle brightness out if it on high and loud latin, ska, reggae, and funk gigs. So Iím looking for something that has a similar blow but is brighter and more cutting. Since it would not be my main axe Iíd like grab something with similar slotting and tuning quirks. My immediate thought was 2B or 2B plus, but I do need something thatíll hold the sometimes Gary Valente level of volume that get called for but thatíd also be a nice horn to maybe retire the 3B+ when Iím on lead in non-modern rep big bands. All recommendations welcome and thanks in advance.

Cheers,

Josh
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Geordie
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« Reply #1 on: Nov 13, 2017, 09:20PM »

I love my 3B+ but needed to add another horn to do the sort of gigs you mention. Olds Special and Olds Recording worked fine for me - particularly the Recording which is less strident than the Special but cuts through nicely. . 
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« Reply #2 on: Nov 13, 2017, 09:53PM »

I would look into either a 3B (1st choice) or a 2B+ (2nd choice) a 2B is a very drastic bore change
or
here`s a different option
a Conn 32H   .500/.522 dual bore
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svenlarsson

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« Reply #3 on: Nov 14, 2017, 01:34AM »

If I was looking for a horn with brightnes and really cutting, my first choice would be 3B, possible a 3BF.
A horn for more soft playing ballads and jazz could be a 2B. The mouthpiece could make a big difference.
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« Reply #4 on: Nov 14, 2017, 03:38AM »

The discontinued Yamaha 3530R is also a very very good option.
A 356 w/o the F attachment and with a yellow brass slide, 500/525.
Plays big with the minimum effort, warmer than the 356, consistent horn.
Thought, not exactly on the bright side...

I like mine a lot.

You can find it used quite easily.

And this:

The mouthpiece could make a big difference.
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« Reply #5 on: Nov 14, 2017, 07:03AM »

A Reynolds Argenta could work. A very bright sounding horn that can peel wallpaper in the back of the hall. Generally can be found for bargain prices. Bore is .520 or .515, depending on year of manufacture.
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« Reply #6 on: Nov 14, 2017, 07:38AM »

I play a fair amount of salsa, and I can occasionally pull some GV out of my bag on those big band gigs where it's called for.

Pretty sure GV plays (or played) a 2B. I could be wrong about that.

2B tends more to that spectrum than a 2B+. 2B+ is a bit darker (older version with brass outers) - 2B+ with nickel outers is a bit brighter but still meatier in the tonal spectrum, not as bright.  Blow is not really all that similar to the 3B+ but is very open for a small horn. I actually found the 2B felt more open than the 3B+ (probably a lead pipe thing with the 3B+ but that could've just been my horn.)

3B - great until you get into the upper register where it starts to get a bit truculent around Db    Still a great horn for salsa, I prefer the 70's horns for that stuff. Much of Willie Colůn's work is on the 70's 3Bs.

If you find one, a Bach 36 bell mated to a 16 slide (this'll require a tech obviously) is an uncommon but effective combination for this sort of thing.

Reynolds Argenta, Yamaha YSL 645, Rath R3 with nickel bell, Shires .508 with LW nickel slide - all great for what you're looking for.
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« Reply #7 on: Nov 14, 2017, 08:24AM »

I play a fair amount of salsa, and I can occasionally pull some GV out of my bag on those big band gigs where it's called for.

Pretty sure GV plays (or played) a 2B. I could be wrong about that.

2B tends more to that spectrum than a 2B+. 2B+ is a bit darker (older version with brass outers) - 2B+ with nickel outers is a bit brighter but still meatier in the tonal spectrum, not as bright.  Blow is not really all that similar to the 3B+ but is very open for a small horn. I actually found the 2B felt more open than the 3B+ (probably a lead pipe thing with the 3B+ but that could've just been my horn.)

3B - great until you get into the upper register where it starts to get a bit truculent around Db    Still a great horn for salsa, I prefer the 70's horns for that stuff. Much of Willie Colůn's work is on the 70's 3Bs.

If you find one, a Bach 36 bell mated to a 16 slide (this'll require a tech obviously) is an uncommon but effective combination for this sort of thing.

Reynolds Argenta, Yamaha YSL 645, Rath R3 with nickel bell, Shires .508 with LW nickel slide - all great for what you're looking for.

I took a few lessons with Gary about 10 years ago. He was on a 2b back then, and removed the counterweight to improve the response.

I'd agree with everything Exzaclee says here. Can't really add anything else to it.
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« Reply #8 on: Nov 14, 2017, 12:00PM »

Wouldn't nearly any good small (~.500-.508)bore bone work?
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« Reply #9 on: Nov 14, 2017, 12:23PM »

I play a fair amount of salsa, and I can occasionally pull some GV out of my bag on those big band gigs where it's called for.

Pretty sure GV plays (or played) a 2B. I could be wrong about that.

---snip---


Gary plays a sterling silver bell '30s 2B on a 6.5AL. His air is so powerful that he brings that fairly resistant horn design, moderately large m'pce (for the size of horn) and heavy bell up into another volume stratosphere entirely. Unless you are a near-superhuman in that department...and near-superhuman in the strength of your chops as well...I strongly suggest a good yellow brass 3B from before King was bought by whatever multinational is now making them. They can be found at rational prices and they have a very nice way of pointing up as they are pushed hard without playing with a nasal sound at lower volumes.

I have also been impressed with the sound and hold-togetherness of some Rath horns at volume...not all, and I am not really conversant with their various models...but the one that Jimmy Bosch is playing is wonderful in this regard. Avoid the really light ones for loud playing.

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« Reply #10 on: Nov 14, 2017, 05:00PM »

Thanks for all the replies guys!

So it's interesting to me that the 3B is coming up as frequently as it is. Is it that much brighter than the 3B+? I'm honestly not a gear guy so I haven't spent a great deal of time on a lot of horns, just sort of found one that I liked and not changed anything for years. As a result it's been years since I played a 3B.

Sticking with Kings are their tuning quirks consistent across their models? I play a 6.5AL and don't switch mouthpieces and honestly as someone who plays one horn it'd be nice not to have to worry about different tuning quirks if that is possible (though this may be psychological and not an issue as I double but I think of bass bone as a different instrument)

On a related note I tried the XO Fedchock model and found it got ugly way too early in the volume spectrum so if that helps rule anything out.

Also I do a lot of bass trombone and sousaphone playing so I'm not super concerned about switches in bore size, more just the blow. I haven't really had much luck finding a small horn that holds volume, easily has a bright sound, and has a decent blow.

Cheers,

Josh
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harrison.t.reed
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« Reply #11 on: Nov 14, 2017, 05:55PM »

The 3B and 3B+ are not the same animal. They are pretty different to me, at least.
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« Reply #12 on: Nov 15, 2017, 08:41AM »

You could also try a Selmer Bolero, looks like a King 3B but plays much better ( to me) pretty cheap as well.
DJ usually has some.

Very under rated horn.

BellEnd
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« Reply #13 on: Nov 15, 2017, 11:45AM »

Not necessary to change the trombone
King 3B+ is very versatile horn.
It is enough to change the mouthpiece.
Try Bach 6 3/4C, Wick 7CS or Doug Elliott equivalent.
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« Reply #14 on: Nov 19, 2017, 12:10PM »


If you find one, a Bach 36 bell mated to a 16 slide (this'll require a tech obviously) is an uncommon but effective combination for this sort of thing.


Actually, the 12, 16, 16M, 34, and 36 all use the same tenon connectors, so you can mix and match to your heart's desire.

I once hooked up my 16M slide to a student's 36 bell. Fit like a glove!

I think the 6 and 8 also use the same connector.

Jerry Walker

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« Reply #15 on: Nov 19, 2017, 04:52PM »

Interesting... I always assumed the Bach tenons were like Shires - medium and large same, all small the same. Learn something new everyday.
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« Reply #16 on: Nov 19, 2017, 05:02PM »

Interesting... I always assumed the Bach tenons were like Shires - medium and large same, all small the same. Learn something new everyday.

The 36 and 42 have different tenons. I wonder if the 42 and 50 have the same tenon?

Jerry Walker
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« Reply #17 on: Nov 19, 2017, 08:13PM »

The 36 and 42 have different tenons. I wonder if the 42 and 50 have the same tenon?

Jerry Walker

42 and 50 use the same tenon.  I've used the slide from my Bach 50 on my Bach 42.
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« Reply #18 on: Nov 20, 2017, 08:09AM »

42 and 50 use the same tenon.  I've used the slide from my Bach 50 on my Bach 42.

Makes sense. Vincent Bach was very thrifty - made as few parts as possible. Only manufactured two tenon sizes for 9+ different models!

Jerry Walker
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