Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length

 
Advanced search

1092621 Posts in 72303 Topics- by 19426 Members - Latest Member: BassBoneGatz
Jump to:  
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5  All   Go Down
Print
Author Topic: Tuner accuracy  (Read 3287 times)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
harrison.t.reed
*
Offline Offline

Location: Colorado
Joined: Apr 5, 2007
Posts: 2831
"Spartan Brass Band!"


View Profile
« Reply #40 on: Nov 19, 2017, 01:34PM »

Those who understand need no explanation. For those who donít understand, no explanation will suffice.

That's why I agreed with your nevermind
Logged

"My technique is as good as Initial D"
T-396A - Griego 1C
88HTCL - Griego 1C
36H - DE XT105, C+, D Alto Shank
3B/F Silversonic - Griego 1A ss
pBone (with Yellow bell for bright tone)
growlerbox
Just a clown with an axe

*
Offline Offline

Location: Wellington, New Zealand
Joined: Feb 1, 2012
Posts: 1018

View Profile
« Reply #41 on: Nov 19, 2017, 03:14PM »

OK.

All I know is what I hear. That, and some of the easier math behind it. Iím still learning not to get passionate about intonation on line, with 8x10 color glossies with circles and arrows and a paragraph on the back explaining. Those who understand need no explanation. For those who donít understand, no explanation will suffice. Thatís why I edited my previous post.

Happy Turkey Day, for those of us who celebrate it.

Sorry, man, didn't mean to ruffle your feathers.  My post wasn't directed at yours (which is why I didn't quote it), but was a tongue in cheek reference to an entirely different thread with some of the same punters involved.
Logged

If it's not worth doing, it's not worth doing well.
Bruce the budgie

*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: Oct 1, 2013
Posts: 287
"A burp is not a grace note."


View Profile
« Reply #42 on: Nov 19, 2017, 03:24PM »

Thanks, guys. Must have missed that earlier thread, maybe a good thing. Now if I could just figure out where the things making whooshing noises over my head are coming from...
Logged
harrison.t.reed
*
Offline Offline

Location: Colorado
Joined: Apr 5, 2007
Posts: 2831
"Spartan Brass Band!"


View Profile
« Reply #43 on: Nov 19, 2017, 03:30PM »

Sorry, man, didn't mean to ruffle your feathers.  My post wasn't directed at yours (which is why I didn't quote it), but was a tongue in cheek reference to an entirely different thread with some of the same punters involved.

That must be me!  :D

It was and still is a joke man. If you were referring to the "tone doesn't doesn't matter" joke, poking fun at the sad excuse for jazz I hear on the radio daily. But it was also dead serious.
Logged

"My technique is as good as Initial D"
T-396A - Griego 1C
88HTCL - Griego 1C
36H - DE XT105, C+, D Alto Shank
3B/F Silversonic - Griego 1A ss
pBone (with Yellow bell for bright tone)
sirisobhakya
ThaiJin BassTrom
*
Offline Offline

Location: Hiroshima, Japan
Joined: Jun 7, 2009
Posts: 58

View Profile
« Reply #44 on: Nov 19, 2017, 04:04PM »

A bit off-topic and newcomer's question, but I have always wondered. I have never played in symphony orchestra, only wind bands. If the orchestra tunes to A, but most of the brass instruments' closed pitch is in Bb, how do people in the brass section know that their instruments' closed pitch (where other tuning slides positions are derived from) is in tune, not just the 2nd valve tuning slide (or in case of trombone, the slide position)? Is it done entirely by ear?

And why doesn't the oboe gives A for strings and Bb for the brass section? (And maybe F for the horns and F tubas?) Theoretically the oboe should be in-tune for its entire range, isn't it?
Logged

Chaichan Wiriyaswat

(ex) Kasetsart University Laboratory School Symphonic Band
Higashihiroshima Wind Ensemble
Yamaha YBL-830 + Yamaha 59
timothy42b
*
Offline Offline

Location: Colonial Heights, Virginia, US
Joined: Dec 7, 2000
Posts: 12454

View Profile
« Reply #45 on: Nov 19, 2017, 04:08PM »

A bit off-topic and newcomer's question, but I have always wondered. I have never played in symphony orchestra, only wind bands. If the orchestra tunes to A, but most of the brass instruments' closed pitch is in Bb, how do people in the brass section know that their instruments' closed pitch (where other tuning slides positions are derived from) is in tune, not just the 2nd valve tuning slide (or in case of trombone, the slide position)? Is it done entirely by ear?


I think the proof is in the results.

I have listened to a lot of orchestras on CD and radio, a few professional ones in person, and a much larger number of amateur ones in person.  I've even occasionally played in an amateur one.

The professional ones play in tune, mostly.  The amateur ones do not (and it can be painful).  But even at the amateur level, the offenders are not the winds.  They are the violin and viola sections.  That's just my experience, YMMV.
Logged

Tim Richardson
GetzenBassPlayer

*
Offline Offline

Location: Seattle, Washington
Joined: Aug 21, 2002
Posts: 6309
"Learn as little as you have to, as well a"


View Profile
« Reply #46 on: Nov 19, 2017, 05:24PM »

A bit off-topic and newcomer's question, but I have always wondered. I have never played in symphony orchestra, only wind bands. If the orchestra tunes to A, but most of the brass instruments' closed pitch is in Bb, how do people in the brass section know that their instruments' closed pitch (where other tuning slides positions are derived from) is in tune, not just the 2nd valve tuning slide (or in case of trombone, the slide position)? Is it done entirely by ear?

And why doesn't the oboe gives A for strings and Bb for the brass section? (And maybe F for the horns and F tubas?) Theoretically the oboe should be in-tune for its entire range, isn't it?

I donít know what the valves instruments do, but for trombones in orchestra, tuning to A  is not an issue. We have a tuning slide in our hand and we are are making adjustments to compensate for many issues such as playing on a cold instrument or adjusting for changes in the pitch center that tends to occur with most groups.
Logged

Pro level? Pro level!  You make it pro, you make it good You make it loved and play nice Then its a pro level horn
Leif

I can justify my position with a trombone in my hands and that's good enough for me
Beware wise men bearing equations  C. Stearn
harrison.t.reed
*
Offline Offline

Location: Colorado
Joined: Apr 5, 2007
Posts: 2831
"Spartan Brass Band!"


View Profile
« Reply #47 on: Nov 19, 2017, 05:54PM »

A bit off-topic and newcomer's question, but I have always wondered. I have never played in symphony orchestra, only wind bands. If the orchestra tunes to A, but most of the brass instruments' closed pitch is in Bb, how do people in the brass section know that their instruments' closed pitch (where other tuning slides positions are derived from) is in tune, not just the 2nd valve tuning slide (or in case of trombone, the slide position)? Is it done entirely by ear?

And why doesn't the oboe gives A for strings and Bb for the brass section? (And maybe F for the horns and F tubas?) Theoretically the oboe should be in-tune for its entire range, isn't it?

Trombone should not tune the Bb to a closed position, but instead to a useable one a few cm out (hotly debated, but just my experience based opinion). That said, everyone should come to a rehearsal already well practiced in tuning. They should know if the orchestra is A440 or A442, and practice that way at home. They should also be able to recognize if the rehearsal hall is warmer or cooler than where they usually play. So, they should come pretty well warmed up and tuned.

The tuning A should feel familiar and right, since the player already tuned previously. It can be tested against other notes.

In the end, as long as both a Bb (or D above it) and B can be played in tune with the group, all other notes are also in tune. Tuning surprises mean you didn't practice with the group or someone needs to be fired.
Logged

"My technique is as good as Initial D"
T-396A - Griego 1C
88HTCL - Griego 1C
36H - DE XT105, C+, D Alto Shank
3B/F Silversonic - Griego 1A ss
pBone (with Yellow bell for bright tone)
Le.Tromboniste
*
Offline Offline

Location: Basel, Switzerland
Joined: Aug 5, 2008
Posts: 404

View Profile
« Reply #48 on: Nov 19, 2017, 06:31PM »

A bit off-topic and newcomer's question, but I have always wondered. I have never played in symphony orchestra, only wind bands. If the orchestra tunes to A, but most of the brass instruments' closed pitch is in Bb, how do people in the brass section know that their instruments' closed pitch (where other tuning slides positions are derived from) is in tune, not just the 2nd valve tuning slide (or in case of trombone, the slide position)? Is it done entirely by ear?

And why doesn't the oboe gives A for strings and Bb for the brass section? (And maybe F for the horns and F tubas?) Theoretically the oboe should be in-tune for its entire range, isn't it?

Well, it also isn't the "closed pitch" for most of the woodwinds. Many concert bands do give A for woodwinds and Bb for brass. But trumpets are more often in C in a symphony orchestra. So are tubas, when they're not in F. Trumpet in Eb is not uncommon, and alto trombone either...you'd quickly reach 4 or 5 different notes to give...

You get used to know the necessary adjustments based on the given A. Also, we typically tune more than just an A. While the oboe only gives A, you can also touch D and E (as the strings need to play and tune those notes too).
Logged

Maximilien Brisson
SilverBone
Put the Cool in "Coulisse!"

*
Offline Offline

Location: Portland, OR
Joined: Sep 16, 2006
Posts: 3848

View Profile
« Reply #49 on: Nov 19, 2017, 08:10PM »

A bit off-topic and newcomer's question, but I have always wondered. I have never played in symphony orchestra, only wind bands. If the orchestra tunes to A, but most of the brass instruments' closed pitch is in Bb, how do people in the brass section know that their instruments' closed pitch (where other tuning slides positions are derived from) is in tune, not just the 2nd valve tuning slide (or in case of trombone, the slide position)? Is it done entirely by ear?

And why doesn't the oboe gives A for strings and Bb for the brass section? (And maybe F for the horns and F tubas?) Theoretically the oboe should be in-tune for its entire range, isn't it?

Some orchestras I've played in do give both an A and a Bb when doing.  I don't like the practice.  What if the given A and Bb are not in tune with each other?  Furthermore, I have no problem tuning to an A.  I play the D above it and listen to the interval.

It doesn't really matter if I tune exactly to the oboe A.  Just as long as I'm close, I have the world's longest tuning slide in my right hand to fix minor errors.  I actually prefer to be tuned slightly high relative to the oboe A so that if I'm flat in first position I can fix it on the fly.  (First position being slightly off the bumpers.)
Logged

-Howard

The nastiest fellow I've known
Smashed his trombone and ruined its tone.
There's a simple excuse
For his slush pump abuse:
He was born to be bad to the bone.
svenlarsson

*
Offline Offline

Location: Enskede, Sweden.
Joined: Sep 15, 2001
Posts: 4601

View Profile WWW
« Reply #50 on: Nov 20, 2017, 02:18AM »

Some orchestras I've played in do give both an A and a Bb when doing.  I don't like the practice.  What if the given A and Bb are not in tune with each other?  Furthermore, I have no problem tuning to an A.  I play the D above it and listen to the interval.

It doesn't really matter if I tune exactly to the oboe A.  Just as long as I'm close, I have the world's longest tuning slide in my right hand to fix minor errors.  I actually prefer to be tuned slightly high relative to the oboe A so that if I'm flat in first position I can fix it on the fly.  (First position being slightly off the bumpers.)
Actually the idea of giving both A and Bb to the orchestra was practised in the The Rojal opera in Stockhom years ago. Bad idea. Did not improve the intonation. (understatement)
Quote
What if the given A and Bb are not in tune with each other?

Well they arnīt. How could they?
Logged

Kanstul 1662. Bach 45B. Kanstul 1555. Besson Euphonium. Kanstul 66-S Tuba. Sackbuts in F/E/Eb Bb/A
And several horns I should sell.
John Beers Jr.

*
Offline Offline

Location: Houston, TX
Joined: Dec 8, 2002
Posts: 3548

View Profile
« Reply #51 on: Nov 20, 2017, 02:14PM »

I donít know what the valves instruments do, but for trombones in orchestra, tuning to A  is not an issue. We have a tuning slide in our hand and we are are making adjustments to compensate for many issues such as playing on a cold instrument or adjusting for changes in the pitch center that tends to occur with most groups.

I had meant to comment on this earlier, but I get annoyed when I'm offered a Bb rather than an A as the tuning note, particularly when other instruments are given the A.

For one thing, you can adjust the A in both directions with the mainslide, allowing you to get a clearer position of where your horn in particular is sitting. Yeah, I tune a little bit off the bumpers as a general rule, but that being the case, sometimes I need to go sharper than I can on just the handslide and there isn't always time to get the pitch, try to find it, come off horn, adjust tuning slide, go back to horn, etc. For another, I'm also dubious of the premise that the Oboe's A and Bb will be equivalent and that just adds more error to the approximate nature of amateur intonation.
Logged

"Progress is just another word for making bad things happen faster" - Granny Weatherwax
Doug Elliott
Lord of the Rims

*
*
Offline Offline

Location: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: Mar 12, 2005
Posts: 6789

View Profile
« Reply #52 on: Nov 20, 2017, 02:25PM »

the approximate nature of amateur intonation.
Good! Good! Good!
Logged

www.DougElliottMouthpieces.com
XT LexanN104,C+,D2, Williams 6, K&H Slokar alto, K&H Slokar Solo .547 open wrap
svenlarsson

*
Offline Offline

Location: Enskede, Sweden.
Joined: Sep 15, 2001
Posts: 4601

View Profile WWW
« Reply #53 on: Nov 21, 2017, 01:28AM »

Good! Good! Good!

Yes I believe many of us donīt like the Bb as a tuning tone. I was against as a teacher to. I believe students of 16 up of years shall learn to tune to A, beacuse that is what they get in the orchestras. No Bb:s aaginst the bumper.

How many if us have experienced a tuner that was not accurat thoug?

I have never found a tuner that wasnīt accurat.

Logged

Kanstul 1662. Bach 45B. Kanstul 1555. Besson Euphonium. Kanstul 66-S Tuba. Sackbuts in F/E/Eb Bb/A
And several horns I should sell.
harrison.t.reed
*
Offline Offline

Location: Colorado
Joined: Apr 5, 2007
Posts: 2831
"Spartan Brass Band!"


View Profile
« Reply #54 on: Nov 21, 2017, 04:10AM »

OP still hasn't said whether or not the oboe's tuner was set to A442. If it was, it's not inaccurate, just tuned sharper.
Logged

"My technique is as good as Initial D"
T-396A - Griego 1C
88HTCL - Griego 1C
36H - DE XT105, C+, D Alto Shank
3B/F Silversonic - Griego 1A ss
pBone (with Yellow bell for bright tone)
timothy42b
*
Offline Offline

Location: Colonial Heights, Virginia, US
Joined: Dec 7, 2000
Posts: 12454

View Profile
« Reply #55 on: Nov 21, 2017, 05:19AM »

Checkout the intonation on this link:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=85_73iAm-sU&feature=youtu.be

I have visions of a whole section in our community band.

Logged

Tim Richardson
savio

*
Offline Offline

Location: Norway
Joined: Aug 10, 2006
Posts: 5146

View Profile WWW
« Reply #56 on: Nov 21, 2017, 01:35PM »

 I wonder if this tuner apps for phones are to trust? I mostly use my internal tuner but not sure of the accuracy :D

Leif
Logged

Bass Trombone - Conn, Holton
Whitbey
*
Offline Offline

Location: Rochester MI USA
Joined: Apr 14, 2000
Posts: 968

View Profile WWW
« Reply #57 on: Nov 22, 2017, 09:44PM »

OP still hasn't said whether or not the oboe's tuner was set to A442. If it was, it's not inaccurate, just tuned sharper.

Not sure what the tuner was set to as I did not want to touch other peoples stuff. I did point out it was wrong when two nearby tuners were right.

I recall I had a tuner many years ago that was off and not adjustable......except to place it in the bottom of the trash can.

I personally prefer a pitch pipe. But I mostly prefer A 440.
Logged

See my profile for my horns. To long to put on each post.
LowrBrass

*
Offline Offline

Location: Philadelphia-ish, PA
Joined: May 17, 2015
Posts: 436

View Profile
« Reply #58 on: Nov 23, 2017, 05:43AM »

I wonder if this tuner apps for phones are to trust? I mostly use my internal tuner but not sure of the accuracy :D

Leif

I don't trust phone tuner apps, but everyone I've said this to acts shocked, so it's probably just me.  Don't know
Might be that I'm using an archaic smartphone, so both my phone's mic and my app could be wonky.
Might also be that I like to use a tuner to check a whole buncha notes throughout my range. It might be fine for a simple A=440 tuning pitch, but it craps out when I try to play anything outside a narrow mid-range of pitches.
Logged
BillO
A trombone is not measured by it's name.

*
Offline Offline

Location: Ontario Canada
Joined: Jun 24, 2015
Posts: 3421

View Profile
« Reply #59 on: Nov 23, 2017, 06:26AM »

I'd speculate most of us would not be able to tell the difference between 440 & 442 if we heard them played apart by an hour or so.  I think the way to resolve this is to train yourself to tune by ear.  The director should pick a wind instrument (oboe or clarinet) and have everyone tune by ear to it. Perhaps more than once per practice so that everyone gets used to adjusting as they go.
Logged

Never look at the conductor. You just encourage them.

Have you noticed, some folk never stick around to help tidy up after practice?
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5  All   Go Up
Print
Jump to: