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Author Topic: Slide brace by MKDrawings  (Read 1580 times)
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leec

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« on: Nov 21, 2017, 01:02PM »

Hi Folks,

Just wondering if anyone has tried one of these and id so how did you like it?

many thanks
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Terraplane8Bob
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« Reply #1 on: Nov 21, 2017, 01:13PM »

I put one on my Conn 62H and have NO plans to remove it.   I was amazed at how much difference it made in focusing the sound of the horn and how "slotting" improved.  Like you, I was very skeptical about how much difference it would make, but I could not be happier with the investment.  I tried it on my King 8B and got almost as good a result, but on my King Duo Gravis there was virtually no improvement.  Go figure ?  Don't know  In my experience,it's a lot of "Bang For The Buck" ! Cheers !!  Bob
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leec

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« Reply #2 on: Dec 14, 2017, 10:53AM »

Well the brace arrived yesterday.  Not sure of any improvement as yet. Perhaps I'm not yet good enough to notice the difference. I do tend to switch horns and MPs all the time so I'm likely pretty messed up.  I'll leave more feedback after a bit of time with the brace.  I'll try to leave it on just one horn.
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harrison.t.reed
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« Reply #3 on: Dec 14, 2017, 11:50AM »

These kinds of things make a difference that can be felt when you're putting a lot of sound/air/etc through the horn. Not so much of an effect if you dont play that way.
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« Reply #4 on: Dec 14, 2017, 12:13PM »

What exactly is the slide brace, pictures?
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leec

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« Reply #5 on: Dec 14, 2017, 01:27PM »

It's tricky to post pics here , if you go to M&K Drawings website you will see it under trombone accessories
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harrison.t.reed
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« Reply #6 on: Dec 14, 2017, 02:03PM »



not tricky
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"My technique is as good as Initial D"
T-396A - Griego 1C
88HTCL - Griego 1C
36H - DE XT105, C+, D Alto Shank
3B/F Silversonic - Griego 1A ss
pBone (with Yellow bell for bright tone)
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« Reply #7 on: Dec 14, 2017, 02:04PM »

Thanks! So is this an extra accessory? How does it work exactly, and how much was it?
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BGuttman
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« Reply #8 on: Dec 14, 2017, 07:54PM »

It goes between the ferrules on the slide bow.  Makes it look sorta like a pBone.

Does it work?  You see how many of us are using them... :/
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Bruce Guttman
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leec

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« Reply #9 on: Dec 16, 2017, 04:47AM »



not tricky

OK not tricky
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thebicyclist
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« Reply #10 on: Dec 16, 2017, 12:29PM »

Thanks! So is this an extra accessory? How does it work exactly, and how much was it?

It will change which sound frequencies are attenuated by the curve in the slide bow which will change the sound,  Ralph Sauer used one, whether it's a positive/negative even noticeable change to your playing you won't know until you try it :-)
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Dombat
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« Reply #11 on: Dec 16, 2017, 02:17PM »

Tried one out on my Greenhoe/Bach/Gopp for a few days. The horn slots amazingly but comes at a cost of overtones, for me it reduces the overtones spectrum and you lose a lot of the upper rich overtones. I feel I have much less control therefore of the sound I am creating.
My colleagues didn't like the tone change either. They tried the brace out on their Edwards T350 and Bach 42BO themselves and found similar results... Makes the horn play amazingly easily and free but at a cost of tone.
I packed the brace back in my case. Maybe it will be something to clme back to in the future but for the pit work/section sound we have.
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Terraplane8Bob
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« Reply #12 on: Dec 16, 2017, 07:35PM »

Even though I've already expressed my preference for using the "Sauer Brace", and feel that it is an obvious improvement at all dynamic levels, I do understand the comments regarding the loss of "upper rich overtones".    However ---- I'm a person who thinks that many of those "upper rich overtones" are spurious resonances that have nothing to do with the actual pitch that the player is attempting to produce.  On many occasions I have attempted to play even so simple an interval as an octave with instruments of a particular manufacturer, and was never able to have the interval "settle" in a true unison because of those "upper rich overtones".  Just today, I was listening to the Metropolitan Opera broadcast and heard a soprano with what many would describe as a rich, full bodied voice.  In truth, she was producing so much "hash" surrounding her voice that I would defy anyone listening to the performance to notate what she was singing even though it was a familiar tune of Bellini !  The strength of these overtones varied so much that a listener's ear would be drawn from one overtone to another without any idea of whether or not it was intended to be one of the notes that comprised the melodic line !   An example of a perfectly pitch-aligned voice would be that of the late Metropolitan Opera bass-baritone Leonard Warren, the recordings of whom I used to play for my students to demonstrate a perfect coherence of pitch within a single tone.  To be sure, I have experienced players of these instruments of a particular manufacturer who were able to align all the elements of a pitch-centered tone perfectly, but it is a rarity.  I'm just sayin'-------- !   Cheers !!
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« Reply #13 on: Dec 17, 2017, 04:00AM »


Tried one out on my Greenhoe/Bach/Gopp for a few days. The horn slots amazingly but comes at a cost of overtones, for me it reduces the overtones spectrum and you lose a lot of the upper rich overtones. I feel I have much less control therefore of the sound I am creating.


This sounds very much like the result when using the Denis Wick Booster.
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« Reply #14 on: Dec 17, 2017, 11:34PM »

Even though I've already expressed my preference for using the "Sauer Brace", and feel that it is an obvious improvement at all dynamic levels, I do understand the comments regarding the loss of "upper rich overtones".    However ---- I'm a person who thinks that many of those "upper rich overtones" are spurious resonances that have nothing to do with the actual pitch that the player is attempting to produce.  On many occasions I have attempted to play even so simple an interval as an octave with instruments of a particular manufacturer, and was never able to have the interval "settle" in a true unison because of those "upper rich overtones".  Just today, I was listening to the Metropolitan Opera broadcast and heard a soprano with what many would describe as a rich, full bodied voice.  In truth, she was producing so much "hash" surrounding her voice that I would defy anyone listening to the performance to notate what she was singing even though it was a familiar tune of Bellini !  The strength of these overtones varied so much that a listener's ear would be drawn from one overtone to another without any idea of whether or not it was intended to be one of the notes that comprised the melodic line !   An example of a perfectly pitch-aligned voice would be that of the late Metropolitan Opera bass-baritone Leonard Warren, the recordings of whom I used to play for my students to demonstrate a perfect coherence of pitch within a single tone.  To be sure, I have experienced players of these instruments of a particular manufacturer who were able to align all the elements of a pitch-centered tone perfectly, but it is a rarity.  I'm just sayin'-------- !   Cheers !!

I feel the opposite - overtones are what makes live music exiting. I find many add-ons that are designed to make a horn easier to play (heavy caps, braces etc) come at a loss of the liveliness of the horn. With the brace intonation and slotting were ten times easier but I didn't have the delicacy in my playing that could allow me to change my sound according to the situation - whether blending with the trumpets, trombones, strings, woodwinds or a particular singer.
Of course the loss of pitch and therefore melody for the sake of overtones is nkt ideal but in the case of the trombone to much pitch centre (especially in an orchestral situation) can, I believe, lead to a boring and overpowering sound.
All that said. One must always adapt their tone to the players around them. The brace helps with playing. In my playing situation and sound concept its negatives outweighed the positives but for others it may be the other way around.
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Terraplane8Bob
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« Reply #15 on: Dec 18, 2017, 06:35AM »

Interesting indeed !  Two diametrically opposed assessments of a common problem.  It reminds me of the tale of 10 blind men trying to "explain" an elephant by touching only one part of the beast.  In the case of the "Out of Control Overtones", I think we really agree in general about the richness that they provide to the tonal quality of any musical instrument.  I believe that the missing consideration here is simple.  The overtones must be aligned to the pitch that is being generated instead of just being thrown out there willy-nilly with no definite purpose other than simply being there.  Piano tuners are familiar with "wild" notes that cannot be pulled into tune because the string in question had, at some point in its life, been slightly bent, causing the string to actually vibrate in two segments.  The two segments can never be tuned to the other strings in the group designated to a given pitch.  This is what I meant when I referred to "spurious resonances".  So --- include as many overtones as you wish just so they all are there with a purpose and are aligned to the pitch being generated.  Problem solved !  Cheers !!   Bob
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leec

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« Reply #16 on: Dec 19, 2017, 02:45PM »

Well some of the feedback is way beyond me.  At this stage in my development, I'll take Free and Easy to play, which does seem to be the case.  As I progress I may get interested in 'overtones'
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harrison.t.reed
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« Reply #17 on: Dec 19, 2017, 08:06PM »

You may very well not even be able to tell any difference at all if you're saying you are at where you're at. Let us know how it goes.
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"My technique is as good as Initial D"
T-396A - Griego 1C
88HTCL - Griego 1C
36H - DE XT105, C+, D Alto Shank
3B/F Silversonic - Griego 1A ss
pBone (with Yellow bell for bright tone)
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« Reply #18 on: Dec 20, 2017, 07:11AM »

My instructor has one soldered on his Shires tenor slide.  Out of curiosity, I've got one of these on the way - comes tomorrow.  From what I've read it seems to "make the most difference" on light slides, which is what I've got on my bass. I'll be interested to see if makes any difference.
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« Reply #19 on: Dec 21, 2017, 03:47PM »

We'll, I've put a short practice session in with the brace on. Does it make me a better player? No. Does it enhance my tone to the likes of Ben van Dijk or George Roberts? No. But it does seem to make things more stable and slot better.  I started to question if it was just in my head, but I took the brace off and the slots felt loose.  I mean we're talking minor adjustments here, but in my mind with my playing, it seems to be helping.  I'll be keeping it on.

I don't have any large ensemble rehearsals until well into January, so I can't wait to try it out in that venue.

This little $40 gimmick gets a  Good! from me.
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"Remember, your trombone is not a weapon!" -Ben van Dijk
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