Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length

 
Advanced search

1092829 Posts in 72329 Topics- by 19432 Members - Latest Member: joshealejo
Jump to:  
Pages: [1] 2 3  All   Go Down
Print
Author Topic: Study: earplugs for everyone  (Read 2682 times)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
robcat2075

*
Offline Offline

Location: Dallas, Texas
Joined: Apr 19, 2009
Posts: 6638

View Profile
« on: Nov 23, 2017, 09:44AM »

And not just the violas in front of the trombones, either

New research: All orchestra players should wear ear plugs


Quote
Calculated results indicate that risers, available space, and screens at typical positions do not significantly influence sound exposure. A hypothetical scenario with surround screens shows that, even when shielding all direct sound from others, sound exposure is reduced moderately with the largest effect on players in loud sections. In contrast, a dramatic change in room acoustic conditions only leads to considerable reductions for soft players. It can be concluded that significant reductions are only reached with extreme measures that are unrealistic. It seems impossible for the studied physical measures to be effective enough to replace hearing protection devices such as ear plugs.


My crit would be the framing of the discussion as if it were primarily a professional symphony musician problem, whereas it's a problem that starts as early as 5th grade beginner bands where some students' ears are placed just inches in front of trumpet and trombone bells.
Logged

Robert Holmén

Hear me as I Play My Horn


Get your Popper, Dotzauer, or Kummer play-alongs!
harrison.t.reed
*
Offline Offline

Location: Colorado
Joined: Apr 5, 2007
Posts: 2836
"Spartan Brass Band!"


View Profile
« Reply #1 on: Nov 23, 2017, 09:58AM »

Haahaahaha. Ear plugs only work if you've got a great mix coming through an in ear monitor. Otherwise, you've gotta be kidding. Impossible to get a real sense of your sound with ear plugs in.

Only my opinion, but a world where 5th graders start playing with ear plugs in would be a world with awful sounding ensembles at all levels.
Logged

"My technique is as good as Initial D"
T-396A - Griego 1C
88HTCL - Griego 1C
36H - DE XT105, C+, D Alto Shank
3B/F Silversonic - Griego 1A ss
pBone (with Yellow bell for bright tone)
Burgerbob

*
Offline Offline

Location: Los Angeles
Joined: Aug 12, 2007
Posts: 5515

View Profile
« Reply #2 on: Nov 23, 2017, 10:17AM »

I play better with plugs in in loud situations than without. I can hear a lot more, since the distortion threshold is so much different.
Logged

Brasslab 50T3, Greg Glack 1G .312 #2
Bach 50B, ditto
Bach 50B2, ditto
Conn 60H, ditto
Bach 42B, Greg Black NY 1.25
Bach 42BG, ditto
Conn 6H, Yamaha 48
Yamaha YEP-842S, Schilke 53/59
Yamaha YBH-301MS, Hammond 12XL
bigbassbone1

*
Offline Offline

Location: Los Angeles, CA
Joined: Sep 7, 2012
Posts: 998

View Profile
« Reply #3 on: Nov 23, 2017, 10:20AM »

Haahaahaha. Ear plugs only work if you've got a great mix coming through an in ear monitor. Otherwise, you've gotta be kidding. Impossible to get a real sense of your sound with ear plugs in.

Only my opinion, but a world where 5th graders start playing with ear plugs in would be a world with awful sounding ensembles at all levels.

I dunno harrison.... they really are not that bad to play with. Its not ideal, but the more you do it the better you get at it. If you look at how much sound exposure you are supposed to take in a day, it really does not leave much practice and performance time for brass players if you are not protecting your ears.

I have been lucky to perform with a handful of professional orchestras as well as other high level ensembles, and whilst I dont think most players use ear plugs its really not that uncommon now.

I even use ear plugs for certain practice sessions in small rooms. Its not neccesarily that its "too loud" but if you spend most of your day practicing as well as rehearsing or performing its just a huge amount of noise exposure without you even realising sometimes.

Personally I think people who never use ear plugs are crazy. It doesnt really matter if its loud, its the time you are exposed that really counts. All orchestras would be approaching levels that would reach a daily dosage of sound quite quickly. Probably faster than you realise.
Logged
harrison.t.reed
*
Offline Offline

Location: Colorado
Joined: Apr 5, 2007
Posts: 2836
"Spartan Brass Band!"


View Profile
« Reply #4 on: Nov 23, 2017, 10:30AM »

For sure, my hearing is absolutely being damaged over time. But I also know for a fact that I can't play or hear myself with plugs in. Put out a bad product? I don't want to do that!
Logged

"My technique is as good as Initial D"
T-396A - Griego 1C
88HTCL - Griego 1C
36H - DE XT105, C+, D Alto Shank
3B/F Silversonic - Griego 1A ss
pBone (with Yellow bell for bright tone)
Burgerbob

*
Offline Offline

Location: Los Angeles
Joined: Aug 12, 2007
Posts: 5515

View Profile
« Reply #5 on: Nov 23, 2017, 10:32AM »

For sure, my hearing is absolutely being damaged over time. But I also know for a fact that I can't play or hear myself with plugs in. Put out a bad product? I don't want to do that!

Then practice with earplugs more often. It's an acquired skill, not something you do well right away.  Don't know
Logged

Brasslab 50T3, Greg Glack 1G .312 #2
Bach 50B, ditto
Bach 50B2, ditto
Conn 60H, ditto
Bach 42B, Greg Black NY 1.25
Bach 42BG, ditto
Conn 6H, Yamaha 48
Yamaha YEP-842S, Schilke 53/59
Yamaha YBH-301MS, Hammond 12XL
harrison.t.reed
*
Offline Offline

Location: Colorado
Joined: Apr 5, 2007
Posts: 2836
"Spartan Brass Band!"


View Profile
« Reply #6 on: Nov 23, 2017, 10:32AM »

The Army does check my hearing every year, and it's apparently better than 7 years ago ...

 Don't know

I usually don't see guys in an orchestra section using them. In a rock band, usually the mix is good, and I need the click, so I use them there.
Logged

"My technique is as good as Initial D"
T-396A - Griego 1C
88HTCL - Griego 1C
36H - DE XT105, C+, D Alto Shank
3B/F Silversonic - Griego 1A ss
pBone (with Yellow bell for bright tone)
bigbassbone1

*
Offline Offline

Location: Los Angeles, CA
Joined: Sep 7, 2012
Posts: 998

View Profile
« Reply #7 on: Nov 23, 2017, 10:44AM »

The Army does check my hearing every year, and it's apparently better than 7 years ago ...

 Don't know

I usually don't see guys in an orchestra section using them. In a rock band, usually the mix is good, and I need the click, so I use them there.


The Military told me my hearing was good also.... I am suspicious of their test and to be honest their agenda is to say you have good hearing anyway  Don't know

I think you would be surprised with orchestra players. A lot of plugs are very discreet now and unless asked, players usually dont talk much about it.

Its your body of course, you know yourself best, but I want to echo burgerbobs statement.... ear plugs suck at first but its just a matter of getting used to them. I sucked at trombone when I first picked one up..... still working at that  :D
Logged
Ellrod

*
Offline Offline

Location: North
Joined: Oct 30, 2001
Posts: 6475

View Profile
« Reply #8 on: Nov 23, 2017, 10:46AM »

I've got an inexpensive pair of musician's ear plugs that are said to attenuate sound pressure by 15-20 db evenly across the frequency range.  

I tend to use them mostly for the 15 minutes or so prior to the start of a rehearsal, when everyone seems to be bent on playing as loud as they can. I also find them helpful when I've got trumpets aimed at my head. Or if the seating arrangements have me in front of the tympani.

In some respects, I can hear myself better, especially on trombone (I also play guitar). Way better than the cheap foam plugs sold in the drug store.
Logged
harrison.t.reed
*
Offline Offline

Location: Colorado
Joined: Apr 5, 2007
Posts: 2836
"Spartan Brass Band!"


View Profile
« Reply #9 on: Nov 23, 2017, 11:23AM »

Maybe the "Chicago Sound" is because they are partially deaf?
Logged

"My technique is as good as Initial D"
T-396A - Griego 1C
88HTCL - Griego 1C
36H - DE XT105, C+, D Alto Shank
3B/F Silversonic - Griego 1A ss
pBone (with Yellow bell for bright tone)
bigbassbone1

*
Offline Offline

Location: Los Angeles, CA
Joined: Sep 7, 2012
Posts: 998

View Profile
« Reply #10 on: Nov 23, 2017, 01:05PM »

Maybe the "Chicago Sound" is because they are partially deaf?


Maybe. Or they are just really good at their jobs. Probably one of those.
Logged
harrison.t.reed
*
Offline Offline

Location: Colorado
Joined: Apr 5, 2007
Posts: 2836
"Spartan Brass Band!"


View Profile
« Reply #11 on: Nov 23, 2017, 02:56PM »


Maybe. Or they are just really good at their jobs. Probably one of those.

right, no one is doubting how good they are. But the Chicago sound being as it is, a bit bigger than other orchestras...

 Pant
Logged

"My technique is as good as Initial D"
T-396A - Griego 1C
88HTCL - Griego 1C
36H - DE XT105, C+, D Alto Shank
3B/F Silversonic - Griego 1A ss
pBone (with Yellow bell for bright tone)
bigbassbone1

*
Offline Offline

Location: Los Angeles, CA
Joined: Sep 7, 2012
Posts: 998

View Profile
« Reply #12 on: Nov 23, 2017, 03:26PM »

right, no one is doubting how good they are. But the Chicago sound being as it is, a bit bigger than other orchestras...

 Pant

Haha maybe, Whatever that means I suppose. Ive seen videos of some of the woodwind section from Chicago advocating particular brands of ear plugs, and talking about how they help. I dont know if anyone from the brass section uses them in CSO, but there are other brass players in many orchestras who do.

Why not commit to a "2 week trial"? Do one practice session every day wearing them and maybe a rehearsal to two every day for that period. Cant hurt you and you might find it actually helps! Worse scenario you find out its not for you and you take the rist of hearing damage later in life.
Logged
Terraplane8Bob
*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: Oct 9, 2011
Posts: 90

View Profile
« Reply #13 on: Nov 23, 2017, 04:35PM »

One of my favorite musician stories told to me by a percussionist in the U.S. Navy Band back in the 60's ----- One of his colleagues in the Navy Band goes in for his "discharge physical" where they check you out to see that any disability that you might have acquired was possibly caused by your duty responsibilities.  The doctor asked, "What is your problem" ?  Sailor says, "I have a severe hearing loss".  Doctor assumes he's on the gunnery staff of a battleship and asks, "What ship were you on" ?   Sailor says, "I was never on a ship, I was in The U.S. Navy Band in Washington, D.C.".  Doctor asks, "How could you have suffered this loss if you were just in the Navy Band" ?  Sailor says, "Sir --- I was placed very close to the bass drum in the band and I think it was the principal cause of my problem".  Doctor says, "If you were aware that this was potentially damaging to your hearing, why didn't you ask to be moved to a different place" ?  Sailor says, "I couldn't".  Doctor asks, "Why not" ?  Sailor says, "Because I was PLAYING the bass drum"!
 Don't know  Disability DIS-allowed ! Bad dog.  No Biscuits.   True ?  It's up to you to decide --------- Cheers !!
   
Logged
Radar

*
Offline Offline

Location: Rochester NY
Joined: Feb 23, 2012
Posts: 743

View Profile
« Reply #14 on: Nov 23, 2017, 05:05PM »

Haahaahaha. Ear plugs only work if you've got a great mix coming through an in ear monitor. Otherwise, you've gotta be kidding. Impossible to get a real sense of your sound with ear plugs in.

Only my opinion, but a world where 5th graders start playing with ear plugs in would be a world with awful sounding ensembles at all levels.

My experience with trying to play in ensembles with ear plugs is similar.  Maybe it's because my hearing is already diminished but I just can't hear well enough to balance and play in tune with ear plugs in.
Logged
timothy42b
*
Offline Offline

Location: Colonial Heights, Virginia, US
Joined: Dec 7, 2000
Posts: 12457

View Profile
« Reply #15 on: Nov 23, 2017, 05:59PM »

The Army does check my hearing every year, and it's apparently better than 7 years ago ...



Unless there's some special test for bandsmen, the Army test only goes to 4000 Hz.  You lose from the high end.  My 16kHz is gone, my 8kHz is only half what it used to be, but my 4K is still okay, so I would pass the Army test. 
Logged

Tim Richardson
stanzabone

*
Offline Offline

Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Joined: Jul 5, 2006
Posts: 838

View Profile WWW
« Reply #16 on: Nov 24, 2017, 09:06AM »

Unless there's some special test for bandsmen, the Army test only goes to 4000 Hz.  You lose from the high end.  My 16kHz is gone, my 8kHz is only half what it used to be, but my 4K is still okay, so I would pass the Army test. 
There is a high frequency hearing test that can be requested, and the standard test given during a physical will probably not be the high frequency, high definition test. A visit to an audiologist may be needed.
Logged

"Keep it greasy so it'll go down easy" - Frank Zappa
Woolworth

*
Offline Offline

Location: Monticello, Wisconsin
Joined: Mar 17, 2002
Posts: 3847

View Profile
« Reply #17 on: Nov 24, 2017, 04:10PM »

I don't wear mine when I practice, but ALWAYS wear them in rehearsal.  I still want to be playing in 10 or 20 years.
Logged

Rich Woolworth
Trombonist, Composer, Arranger, Clinician, Bandleader

www.matrixmusic.com
harrison.t.reed
*
Offline Offline

Location: Colorado
Joined: Apr 5, 2007
Posts: 2836
"Spartan Brass Band!"


View Profile
« Reply #18 on: Nov 24, 2017, 04:28PM »

I did wear mine once, my musicians ear plugs, in big band. The lead trumpet was so unbelievably loud that I didn't care what I sounded like.
Logged

"My technique is as good as Initial D"
T-396A - Griego 1C
88HTCL - Griego 1C
36H - DE XT105, C+, D Alto Shank
3B/F Silversonic - Griego 1A ss
pBone (with Yellow bell for bright tone)
Don Draper
Abe Froman, Sausage King of Chicago
*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: Mar 12, 2010
Posts: 188

View Profile
« Reply #19 on: Nov 24, 2017, 04:37PM »

Having played all types of gigs in all types of situations, I think earplugs are an essential item for any working trombone player.  I don't use them on orchestral gigs, but they are really handy on salsa gigs, big band lead bone gigs in tight quarters, rock stuff, etc. 

I had to practice with them for a couple of weeks to get used to the sound, but after that I didn't notice them.  I use some custom made impressions with 9 db filters, not the foam kinds.....

$200 well spent.

DD
Logged
Pages: [1] 2 3  All   Go Up
Print
Jump to: