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Author Topic: gold rim  (Read 2731 times)
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Doug Elliott
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« Reply #40 on: Dec 13, 2017, 07:55AM »

Well I have more than an opinion, I've been in the business a long time and I've already been through this.
For clarity, the number you're talking about is expressed several different ways, and the durability depends on what else is added to the gold.

20 millionths
.000020 of an inch
20 micro-inches
.5 micron

That thickness is the minimum that can legally be called Gold Plate.

The opinion I do have is that for mouthpieces, gold should be 24k with nothing added because of allergy issues. Chances are the plating you're getting isn't 24k.
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Wasatch Oz

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« Reply #41 on: Dec 13, 2017, 09:54AM »

Well I have more than an opinion, I've been in the business a long time and I've already been through this.
For clarity, the number you're talking about is expressed several different ways, and the durability depends on what else is added to the gold.

20 millionths
.000020 of an inch
20 micro-inches
.5 micron

That thickness is the minimum that can legally be called Gold Plate.

The opinion I do have is that for mouthpieces, gold should be 24k with nothing added because of allergy issues. Chances are the plating you're getting isn't 24k.


Ah! It sounds like some assumptions are being made. The first thing this company states on their gold plating services is "We offer 24k plating". That was the first thing I discussed with them. So these are 24k --which not every shop can do, from what I understand.

7 micro-inches is the minimum to be called electroplate and 20 is the minimum to be called plated. Doing some research, is seems that 20 is a common thickness for gold that will be exposed to repeated wear.

I can have them plate as thick as I ask. It's not much more expensive to go thicker. I'm just curious if you have any data on how thick the gold is on "factory" mouthpieces, or by other reputable mouthpiece platers. It seems to be a bit of a guarded secret. Likely because most local places try to get away with the jewelry plating standard of 7 micro-inches.

We'll see how well 20 micro-inches wear. I've heard that the 3 micro-inch gold washes some companies use when "plating" mouthpieces, will wear off after a month or two. 7 micro-inches I bet is what most companies will use. These at 20 I suspect will fare very well. But time will tell.
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Doug Elliott
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« Reply #42 on: Dec 13, 2017, 10:11AM »

"We offer 24k plating" sounds like you have to ask for it.

Do you KNOW that's what you got?
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BGuttman
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« Reply #43 on: Dec 13, 2017, 10:19AM »

Back in my circuit board days we made boards for Western Electric.  They had a rather strict standard: 100 microinches of gold over 300 microinches of nickel on all gold fingers.  Western Electric used to require their product to last 40 years in rough service.

Later customers would use 25 microinches of "hard gold" (primarily gold with a trace of nickel or cobalt).  The nickel requirement was reduced to 100 and later 50 microinches.

Surface mount technology requires the gold to last through one soldering cycle (it dissolves into the connection) and thus you can get away with 10 microinches or even less.

Hewlett-Packard, in their glory days, used to like the circuit boards to look expensive and we had to plate 5 millionths of gold on all the circuitry.  Don't know if it did anything for life, but the boards sure looked spiffy.

When I worked at the lab I never had an opportunity to measure gold thickness on a Wick mouthpiece, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was in the range of 25-50 microinches.  They used to have a peeling problem probably because they didn't use proper plating techniques (barrier layer, strike, then full plate).
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Bruce Guttman
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Wasatch Oz

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« Reply #44 on: Dec 13, 2017, 11:00AM »

"We offer 24k plating" sounds like you have to ask for it.

Do you KNOW that's what you got?

Well, as I mentioned, that was the first thing we discussed when I went in. These must be done in 24k. Reply; Yes, that's how we do all mouthpieces.

That said, anytime you pay for a service, there has to be some level of trust. When you change your oil and ask for a synthetic, do you test the oil to make sure they used synthetic, or do you trust that they did what you asked?

I believe pawn shops have a test that can tell the purity of a gold, but I think it's slightly destructive. It would be interesting to do...
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Wasatch Oz

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« Reply #45 on: Dec 13, 2017, 11:05AM »

Back in my circuit board days we made boards for Western Electric.  They had a rather strict standard: 100 microinches of gold over 300 microinches of nickel on all gold fingers.  Western Electric used to require their product to last 40 years in rough service.

Later customers would use 25 microinches of "hard gold" (primarily gold with a trace of nickel or cobalt).  The nickel requirement was reduced to 100 and later 50 microinches.

Surface mount technology requires the gold to last through one soldering cycle (it dissolves into the connection) and thus you can get away with 10 microinches or even less.

Hewlett-Packard, in their glory days, used to like the circuit boards to look expensive and we had to plate 5 millionths of gold on all the circuitry.  Don't know if it did anything for life, but the boards sure looked spiffy.

When I worked at the lab I never had an opportunity to measure gold thickness on a Wick mouthpiece, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was in the range of 25-50 microinches.  They used to have a peeling problem probably because they didn't use proper plating techniques (barrier layer, strike, then full plate).

Nice! There so much assumed about plating, gold in particular. Hearing real-world examples in practice is neat! I really want to know what thickness the factory gold mouthpieces are. A new project!

The Trombone forum deserves to know exactly how thick the gold is on factory plated mouthpieces. Step one, obtain a factory plated MP.
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Nanook

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« Reply #46 on: Dec 14, 2017, 07:05AM »

Stay on this W.O. it's a topic worth pursuing...when I mentioned to my instructor that I was going to get a gold rimmed mouth piece he said that it wears off pretty quickly...I got the impression that he didn't think it was worth the money, nor did he notice any real benefits in playing...I've talked to some other players who noticed playing benefits....I'm anxious to form my own opinion.

Nanook
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« Reply #47 on: Dec 14, 2017, 07:37AM »

My experience is there isn't any difference in sound. Gold can be more slippery but I dont notice much difference in feel either. It looks cool but gold or silver is the same for me. For others it might be different?
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« Reply #48 on: Dec 14, 2017, 07:38AM »

Stay on this W.O. it's a topic worth pursuing...when I mentioned to my instructor that I was going to get a gold rimmed mouth piece he said that it wears off pretty quickly...I got the impression that he didn't think it was worth the money, nor did he notice any real benefits in playing...I've talked to some other players who noticed playing benefits....I'm anxious to form my own opinion.

Nanook

I think that is admirable.

Myself, I don't really care how long it lasts on the playing contact surfaces. It's not a deal-breaker for me if it wears off sooner rather than later. As long as it looks pretty on the outside while I'm playing, that's all I really care about.

I am currently juggling 4 different sized rims & cup depths on a daily basis, so I doubt if I'll be able to notice any material playing difference in a gold rim vs a standard rim.

Just out of curiosity, let us know if you do.

...Geezer
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harrison.t.reed
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« Reply #49 on: Dec 14, 2017, 07:49AM »

FWIW, good gold plate on a rim doesn't wear off quickly. Doug Elliott rims have pretty thick gold plating that lasts. You can tell it's thick because of the feel and the color, which is not bright (no silver is showing through). Griego gold plated my 1C and I've had that for three years -- only the shank shows signs of wear.

On the other hand, I've seen cheapo gold plating on bach mouthpieces that wears away in less than a year. This is the kind that is bright yellow when you get it.
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Wasatch Oz

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« Reply #50 on: Dec 14, 2017, 08:25AM »

My experience is there isn't any difference in sound. Gold can be more slippery but I dont notice much difference in feel either. It looks cool but gold or silver is the same for me. For others it might be different?


Good insight.

My 2nd day on the new gold rim was intense. Individual rehearsal for quintet and then I recorded a swing song full out for 90 minutes, for another band. A lot of playing. The gold is smooth and slippery and feels soft (to me) compared to silver. I played strong the entire time.

All that said... this could be a matter of those who are sensitive to silver feel a rough and less comfortable mouthpiece. My skin is sensitive to everything, So I think the theory is plausible.

For an average-skin player, I wouldn't spend a bunch of extra money on gold. But if you know that you have sensitive skin, the gold might be worth a try.

After two days playing on gold, I'm sold. But I know that not everyone is going to notice a different.
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John McKevitt
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« Reply #51 on: Dec 14, 2017, 11:32AM »

FWIW, My rule of thumb has been if you find a gold plated mouthpiece you like ,great. I have sent silver plated mouthpieces off to be gold plated and was unhappy with the playing results after I got them back. They didn't respond as well as before.  Too much plating than what was there B4? IDK. I like the feel of gold . I now have a DE  XB 116/M/M10 and it is working out fine. Gold rims are new to me. Are they the best of both worlds?. IDK. Doug Elliott mentions on his site about Rims: A gold plated mouthpiece might feel slightly larger than a same sized silver plated rim, also a plastic rim my feel slightly smaller than a similar sized silver plated rim. ANother FWIW. I hope I paraphrased you correctly MR Elliott. NOw my 3rd FWIW- Despite how Cool it looks or feels it all comes down to how it works. I go with Whatever Works. To Each Their Own. IMHO
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John McKevitt
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« Reply #52 on: Dec 14, 2017, 12:10PM »

My 4th FWIW: Anytime you change something expect different results. Hopefully after
painstakingly analyzing all the info you make a correct decision and the mod works out for you.
My 5th FWIW. I have recently started gold plating mouthpieces that I liked but I felt were too bright.I did it to a Bach Mt Vernon 2G and a Custom made/modified Hammond Skeletonized 10ML. In both cases I "lucked out". It Tamed them a bit. These are only my opinions and results...........( and does not reflect the opinion of TTF ,Their Members, Its Affiliates and their Subsidies )
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Nanook

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« Reply #53 on: Dec 29, 2017, 06:51AM »

Well I have more than an opinion, I've been in the business a long time and I've already been through this.
For clarity, the number you're talking about is expressed several different ways, and the durability depends on what else is added to the gold.

20 millionths
.000020 of an inch
20 micro-inches
.5 micron

That thickness is the minimum that can legally be called Gold Plate.

The opinion I do have is that for mouthpieces, gold should be 24k with nothing added because of allergy issues. Chances are the plating you're getting isn't 24k.

I posted this on another thread as well, but here was the response I got from the MPE people regarding how thick they lay down the 24 K gold...I told them we were having a discussion on the forum...

Good luck with that discussion :)

The thickness is determined by the time and the current (amperage) used in the cyanide gold bath as well as the density of the dissolved gold. We strive for an average of 80 microinches thick.

I hope that helped.

Robbert Chernault
MouthpieceExpress.com
StarCityMusic.com
Brass5.com
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« Reply #54 on: Dec 29, 2017, 01:07PM »

Thank you for taking the time to ask, and thank you for posting the answer you got  :)
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Nanook

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« Reply #55 on: Dec 29, 2017, 01:20PM »

my ultimate goal is to find the company that does the best job and an acceptable price...As a group we should be able to do that, then pass the information on to the rest of the forum....

Nanook
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« Reply #56 on: Dec 29, 2017, 01:51PM »

This is great info! Thanks for asking them.
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Nanook

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« Reply #57 on: Dec 30, 2017, 09:50AM »

well I received my new 6 3/4 bach gold cup and rim today and did my practice session with it...I didn't notice anything with the slippery quality, but it was unmistakable in aiding my endurance... I was able to move thru my exercises without any fatigue problems...I'm actually shocked at how good my chops feel after my 2 hour practice...Now it still looks cool too, but its worth it to me for just the endurance aspect...Now to see how long the gold plating lasts...My instructor suggested that I use a mirco fiber cloth to wipe it off...I'm very happy so far!!! Cost me $118 total for the job, I think I posted $130 before....

Nanook 
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« Reply #58 on: Dec 30, 2017, 10:41AM »

GREAT!  Good!

OTOH, now you don't have any excuses!  Evil

I bought three "24K" gold rim-plated mpcs: 12, 7 & large shank 5G. Love all three, but I don't notice any improvement b/c of the gold. But then again, my improvement is so greased-lightening fast anyway.  :D

...Geezer
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