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The Trombone ForumHorns, Gear, and EquipmentInstruments(Moderators: tbone62, Greg Waits) Axials Vs Rotors Is it Really Worth It?
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jedrph
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« Reply #20 on: Nov 29, 2017, 07:17PM »

FWIW, I played a bach 42b, 42t and 42a(hagmann) for 20+ years. The standard rotor was always really stuffy and noisy(old linkage) but was pretty fast. The thayer was too open for my taste. Seemed to just suck air and it was slow due to the long throw. I think they would work best if you were constantly playing through the valves, but for quick runs etc, they are just too slow for me. I really liked the hagmann. Almost as open as the thayer, but very fast, short throw. I think the hagmann is the best valve i've played although I did play on a 88h with the cl valve which was very nice too, just liked the bach sound better. I have since moved to a schilke st20 with a hagmann and love it. YMMV.
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harrison.t.reed
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« Reply #21 on: Nov 30, 2017, 06:11AM »

A Bach 42 with a Thayer is worlds better than the original style rotor. A valve is just one part of a complete system.

The first Edwards I got to play was a T350 with an axial valve on it.  It definitely favored being played with a lot of air, but it rewarded you with an amazing sound, and for the air you put into it, the note was going to speak and sound good.

Now I have a T396A, and it is a pretty different horn from the axial one. However, I don't think it's the valve or the air resistance that feels different. It's balanced really well, just as well as the T350 (previous Alessi specs), but I think Christan took a different route to get there. It's a complete system, not just a valve or just a bell.
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« Reply #22 on: Nov 30, 2017, 06:48AM »

As Matt said, we generally put valves on a spectrum.  Axials tend to be the widest sounding and rotors tend to have a more dense sound.

As for feel, most feel that axials flow valves are the most open.  However, feel depends on the player input and desired sound.  If the valve type is not in balance with the player input and/or sound concept, a seemingly larger component can feel smaller or less open than a more focused component that balances with input and/or sound concept. 

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Choose a valve based on your own playing characteristics and not that of the description of a valve on a manufactures website. Some players are naturally a bit more zippy or energetic and can use the axial flow valve to balance out that characteristic. Others have a more natural playing style that's more broad, and can use the rotor valve to bring them a bit more to center.

This.  Play the axial set, see what you think and decide for yourself.  We've had many wonderful players choose our rotors over axials or Tru-Bores.  It depends on what works and sounds best to YOU.

I hope that helps and that you;re enjoying your Q.

Ben
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« Reply #23 on: Nov 30, 2017, 09:21AM »

I have a Jupiter XO with a Thayer axial and a Shires with a regular rotor.  As for how the amount of air, resistance and feel go they are about the same outside the trigger range.  In the trigger range, especially down low, the Thayer is freer playing and capable of more volume and control.  The Thayer does take a little more throw to activate, but that's not an issue for my large hands - it might be if you have tiny thumbs. Don't know
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« Reply #24 on: Nov 30, 2017, 09:40AM »

I dont understand how the "throw" on an axial causes any issues at all.... unless you are playing lindberg style music only in and out of the valve register (which seems unlikely for almost everyone) I cant think of any examples when you simply couldnt engage the valve fast enough to play the music required. Even then, there are so many other issues that would need to be addressed with that kind of music before you started worrying about the throw.

I remember a similar discussion a few years ago where I mentioned this and someone who disagreed with me insisted they need rubber bands and others aids to make the thayer move fast enough for the music they were playing. That seems weird to me, Im not sure I buy it.

When choosing a valve, I really would pay zero attention to the lengh of the throw. I dont think any valve available today has a throw so long it prevents you from performing properly.
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MrPillow
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« Reply #25 on: Nov 30, 2017, 09:50AM »

It's not so much that a long throw is bad, just that a shorter throw is better. Why do more when you can do less Don't know
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« Reply #26 on: Nov 30, 2017, 09:54AM »

It's not so much that a long throw is bad, just that a shorter throw is better. Why do more when you can do less Don't know


Haha! I suppose. Personally I think the benefits of a thayer are worth it but I am very aware that is subjective. I dont really know about shorter being better.... it just seems to be trying to fix something that isnt a problem to begin with.
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« Reply #27 on: Nov 30, 2017, 10:23AM »


Haha! I suppose. Personally I think the benefits of a thayer are worth it but I am very aware that is subjective. I dont really know about shorter being better.... it just seems to be trying to fix something that isnt a problem to begin with.

I find the throw to be an issue because I find it uncomfortable in comparison other valves.  Regardless of whether it is "too" long, it's long enough for me to not like it.

Another thing to consider is that some people may not be able to move their thumbs as far, or don't have the necessary strength due to ligament or nerve damage to move the (typically) heavier linkage of an axial flow valve.
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« Reply #28 on: Nov 30, 2017, 10:49AM »

As to the original question of are Thayers worth it, if you can tell the difference and it's better, then it is.  If you don't know enough about the horn to be able to tell the difference, probably not.

I personally wouldn't modify a horn to add Thayers; at least none of mine.  They play fine for me as they are.
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« Reply #29 on: Nov 30, 2017, 10:54AM »

I dont understand how the "throw" on an axial causes any issues at all.... unless you are playing lindberg style music only in and out of the valve register (which seems unlikely for almost everyone) I cant think of any examples when you simply couldnt engage the valve fast enough to play the music required. Even then, there are so many other issues that would need to be addressed with that kind of music before you started worrying about the throw.

I remember a similar discussion a few years ago where I mentioned this and someone who disagreed with me insisted they need rubber bands and others aids to make the thayer move fast enough for the music they were playing. That seems weird to me, Im not sure I buy it.

When choosing a valve, I really would pay zero attention to the lengh of the throw. I dont think any valve available today has a throw so long it prevents you from performing properly.
If you're used to a short rotor throw the throw on a Thayer seems REALLY long.

The throw on trubores used to bug me sometimes and the throw in those is like half as long as the throw on a Thayer. Rotors spoil you after a while with their throw.
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« Reply #30 on: Nov 30, 2017, 11:01AM »

The throw can be made shorter on an axial flow valve. I don't like the stock setup and have modified both the Thayer horns I play.
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« Reply #31 on: Nov 30, 2017, 11:01AM »

I find the throw to be an issue because I find it uncomfortable in comparison other valves.  Regardless of whether it is "too" long, it's long enough for me to not like it.

Another thing to consider is that some people may not be able to move their thumbs as far, or don't have the necessary strength due to ligament or nerve damage to move the (typically) heavier linkage of an axial flow valve.


If people have physical issues with the mechanics thats a different story, you do what you have to when in a situation like that.
Sure, if finding it uncomfortable is reason enough for you not to consider it then of course its great that there are alternatives, and I think its good to have a solid idea of what you want when searching for gear.

Personally, I put being comfortable extremely low on my list of priorities to consider when choosing gear. If I make a superior sound on a particular piece of equipment, then it doesnt matter to me if it feels better or worse, thats what I am going to use. Audiences dont care if you are comfortable, and audition panels dont give you consideration if you say to them afterwards "I make a better sound on different gear, but its less comfortable so i dont play it".

If a student told me they didnt consider axial valves because the throw was too long, or they were uncomfortable, I would strongly encourage them to reassess what they are looking and listening for in their gear choices. I wouldnt force anything of course, just encourage more thought.

Just to confirm, I dont think everyone should play axial valves, and obviously if you have a physical issue with the mechanics of any piece of gear then you need to seek alternatives. I just think that seeing as how (i believe) the "throw" on axials does not impact the quality of your performance, it should be the last thing you consider when choosing a valve. If you make a superior sound on axials to any other valve available but make the choice not use them because the "throw is uncomfortable" I think thats crazy. If the throw affects how you play legato, articulated etc... then its an issue but I just struggle to believe the throw would be a core factor of those kind of issues.

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« Reply #32 on: Nov 30, 2017, 11:18AM »


If a student told me they didnt consider axial valves because the throw was too long, or they were uncomfortable, I would strongly encourage them to reassess what they are looking and listening for in their gear choices. I wouldnt force anything of course, just encourage more thought.



I think there are too many good instruments out there and that far too much of a person's sound is due to the player for comfort to be anything less than top 3 in priorities.  Many times I've picked up a Bach 50 at ETW or ITF to immediately put it down because I find them painful to hold and operate. Sure, I could get a tech to "fix" it.  But why?  Why when I could get a Courtois, Edwards, Shires, Yamaha, etc. that sound great, play great, and are comfortable to hold?  Is the sound of a Bach THAT awe inspiring?  Well, perhaps to some.  Not to me.
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« Reply #33 on: Nov 30, 2017, 11:26AM »

I dont understand how the "throw" on an axial causes any issues at all.... unless you are playing lindberg style music only in and out of the valve register (which seems unlikely for almost everyone) I cant think of any examples when you simply couldnt engage the valve fast enough to play the music required. Even then, there are so many other issues that would need to be addressed with that kind of music before you started worrying about the throw.

I remember a similar discussion a few years ago where I mentioned this and someone who disagreed with me insisted they need rubber bands and others aids to make the thayer move fast enough for the music they were playing. That seems weird to me, Im not sure I buy it.

When choosing a valve, I really would pay zero attention to the lengh of the throw. I dont think any valve available today has a throw so long it prevents you from performing properly.

Many bass players use the valve as an articulation, with lots of alternate positions. Throw matters.
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« Reply #34 on: Nov 30, 2017, 11:47AM »

Can you believe it but I never tried axial. So I dont have a clue....maybe on time I try.

Leif

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« Reply #35 on: Nov 30, 2017, 11:58AM »

Personally, I put being comfortable extremely low on my list of priorities to consider when choosing gear. If I make a superior sound on a particular piece of equipment, then it doesnt matter to me if it feels better or worse, thats what I am going to use. Audiences dont care if you are comfortable, and audition panels dont give you consideration if you say to them afterwards "I make a better sound on different gear, but its less comfortable so i dont play it".

If you are playing an instrument that is uncomfortable to operate, that disagreement with your body WILL manifest itself into a physical, or mental, problem somewhere down the line, no matter how good you think the sound is, no matter how well you play, and no matter how young you are.

Lest you think this advice is void coming from someone who went to college a hundred years ago, I had a problem holding my Holton TR185 in college, when after playing an hour rehearsal, my left index and middle fingers became numb because of all the weight of two valves. It definitely WAS a problem and back then, I didn't have the options available now.
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« Reply #36 on: Nov 30, 2017, 12:09PM »

Sidebar:  You had a 185 with two valves?  I thought they only came with one.  Or did you have the slot-in 2nd valve?
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« Reply #37 on: Nov 30, 2017, 12:19PM »

I think there are too many good instruments out there and that far too much of a person's sound is due to the player for comfort to be anything less than top 3 in priorities.  Many times I've picked up a Bach 50 at ETW or ITF to immediately put it down because I find them painful to hold and operate. Sure, I could get a tech to "fix" it.  But why?  Why when I could get a Courtois, Edwards, Shires, Yamaha, etc. that sound great, play great, and are comfortable to hold?  Is the sound of a Bach THAT awe inspiring?  Well, perhaps to some.  Not to me.

I think we are now talking about different issues. I am not talking about enduring pain, or trying to promote a "bach sound".
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« Reply #38 on: Nov 30, 2017, 12:21PM »

If you are playing an instrument that is uncomfortable to operate, that disagreement with your body WILL manifest itself into a physical, or mental, problem somewhere down the line, no matter how good you think the sound is, no matter how well you play, and no matter how young you are.

Lest you think this advice is void coming from someone who went to college a hundred years ago, I had a problem holding my Holton TR185 in college, when after playing an hour rehearsal, my left index and middle fingers became numb because of all the weight of two valves. It definitely WAS a problem and back then, I didn't have the options available now.


Again, I am not talking about playing through pain or using an instrument in a manner that causes problems.
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« Reply #39 on: Nov 30, 2017, 12:22PM »

I dont understand how the "throw" on an axial causes any issues at all.... unless you are playing lindberg style music only in and out of the valve register (which seems unlikely for almost everyone) I cant think of any examples when you simply couldnt engage the valve fast enough to play the music required. Even then, there are so many other issues that would need to be addressed with that kind of music before you started worrying about the throw.

I remember a similar discussion a few years ago where I mentioned this and someone who disagreed with me insisted they need rubber bands and others aids to make the thayer move fast enough for the music they were playing. That seems weird to me, Im not sure I buy it.

When choosing a valve, I really would pay zero attention to the lengh of the throw. I dont think any valve available today has a throw so long it prevents you from performing properly.


One of the reasons I sold my Getzen was the difference in the throw compared to my Greenhoe. It required an adjustment in timing and certain valve combinations that worked well on the Greenhoe were not as easy to execute on the Thayers.  When I was working the John Williams tuba concerto,, I noticed certain lines were much easier to play on my Greenhoe.
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