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The Trombone ForumHorns, Gear, and EquipmentInstruments(Moderators: tbone62, Greg Waits) Axials Vs Rotors Is it Really Worth It?
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Burgerbob

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« Reply #40 on: Nov 30, 2017, 12:35PM »

Wow! The anti-axial club is out in force today.

In any case, plenty of players (even top level bass trombonists...!?!?!?) use axials quite successfully, even playing technical literature on them. Yes, it's hard to believe. 

Plenty of players don't use them! And that's fine too.

As per usual, the final decision is up to OP about his Shires tenor, which will be a great instrument with a rotor or axial.
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« Reply #41 on: Nov 30, 2017, 12:47PM »

I think we are now talking about different issues. I am not talking about enduring pain, or trying to promote a "bach sound".

I don't think so.  You said "If a student told me they didnt consider axial valves because...they were uncomfortable..."

Uncomfortable, pain, whatever you want to call it.  I'm not going to sit down and play an instrument that I don't like to hold. 

I only mentioned Bach as a personal example and not because I thought you were pushing that sound. 

To make my earlier point more simply, there are too many good trombones out there that ARE comfortable to hold to bother with the ones that aren't.  In my opinion.
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« Reply #42 on: Nov 30, 2017, 12:48PM »

Yes, it's hard to believe. 


No it isn't.  Look, I don't like them.  But I'm not so arrogant as to think everyone else should be like me.
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bigbassbone1

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« Reply #43 on: Nov 30, 2017, 01:04PM »

I don't think so.  You said "If a student told me they didnt consider axial valves because...they were uncomfortable..."

Uncomfortable, pain, whatever you want to call it.  I'm not going to sit down and play an instrument that I don't like to hold. 

I only mentioned Bach as a personal example and not because I thought you were pushing that sound. 

To make my earlier point more simply, there are too many good trombones out there that ARE comfortable to hold to bother with the ones that aren't.  In my opinion.

And that is totally fine. Im actually jealous that just because you dont like holding an instrument you are confident that you can write it off as not for you. I cant do that.

Uncomfortable vs pain.... the first example that comes to mind of what I am trying to describe, I love playing stainless steel mouthpieces. They feel great on my face, I like how they feel when I play them, etc.... when I play my laskey, it doesnt feel comfortable. Not in the same way a stainless steel piece of similar size does, but hands down I make a superior sound on my laskey in every regard. It doesnt affect my playing negatively in any way but its less "comfortable" to play than a stainless piece of a similar size.
Thats got nothing to do with pain.

Sure a longer throw might not be as conveinient, but if I get a better over all sound on thayers im gonna use them. Again, thats more important to me than a slightly shorter throw.
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« Reply #44 on: Nov 30, 2017, 01:26PM »

Wow! The anti-axial club is out in force today.

In any case, plenty of players (even top level bass trombonists...!?!?!?) use axials quite successfully, even playing technical literature on them. Yes, it's hard to believe. 

Plenty of players don't use them! And that's fine too.

As per usual, the final decision is up to OP about his Shires tenor, which will be a great instrument with a rotor or axial.

I personally am not anti-axial.  I just don't like them.  I know lots of people who do.

I believe the OP was still in HS, had a Shires with rotors, and wondered if Axials would be worth the cost of changing.  My feeling is no.  There is nothing you can buy to make playing a good trombone easier, except maybe lessons and a lot of practice time.
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« Reply #45 on: Nov 30, 2017, 01:32PM »

Sidebar:  You had a 185 with two valves?  I thought they only came with one.  Or did you have the slot-in 2nd valve?

slot-in
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EWadie99
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« Reply #46 on: Nov 30, 2017, 01:56PM »

I will also add that it's kind of like a "some people like Pepsi, and some people like coke" kind of thing when it comes to preference of valves. 

With high school graduation and college coming up for me, I thought it would be fun to go to a place with lots of trombones with different valves, brands, basses, and tenors.  It would be something I would love to during spring break or summer before I go off for college! :D
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« Reply #47 on: Nov 30, 2017, 02:10PM »

If your a trombone hoarder, it doesn't matter.  Just get a couple of both!  :D
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« Reply #48 on: Nov 30, 2017, 02:28PM »

I don't think so.  You said "If a student told me they didnt consider axial valves because...they were uncomfortable..."


The point that bigbassbone1 is trying to make (which is pretty off-topic to this particular thread, but still relevant) is that sometimes a piece of equipment is worth using even though it's not the most comfortable, whether due to sound, or playability, or whatever.

The top players I know certainly don't choose their horns based entirely on ergonomics.
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« Reply #49 on: Nov 30, 2017, 04:51PM »

Wow! The anti-axial club is out in force today.

In any case, plenty of players (even top level bass trombonists...!?!?!?) use axials quite successfully, even playing technical literature on them. Yes, it's hard to believe. 

Plenty of players don't use them! And that's fine too.

As per usual, the final decision is up to OP about his Shires tenor, which will be a great instrument with a rotor or axial.

I really could care less what people play, just sound good. Professional players have more face time than many amateur players, which probably  explains why while some things works for  a professional, it may not work as well for even a very talented amateur.
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« Reply #50 on: Nov 30, 2017, 10:42PM »

Professional players have more face time than many amateur players, which probably  explains why while some things works for  a professional, it may not work as well for even a very talented amateur.

Plenty of non-pros on these instruments too.

I'm not saying the axial valve is the only option (especially for OP, I think the rotor is probably fine), but it's dogmatic to say it's NOT an option for anybody but a pro, which is pretty common advice on this forum.
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« Reply #51 on: Dec 01, 2017, 12:28AM »

The point that bigbassbone1 is trying to make (which is pretty off-topic to this particular thread, but still relevant) is that sometimes a piece of equipment is worth using even though it's not the most comfortable, whether due to sound, or playability, or whatever.

The top players I know certainly don't choose their horns based entirely on ergonomics.


Yeah kind of  :D the point I was trying to make is that I just dont think the lengh of a valves throw is that important of a factor in deciding whether it is the best option. People disagree though which is fine  :)

I definitely was NOT saying that people should play through pain. I dont know where that came from, I suppose its just one of those things that is difficult to put into text over the internet.

Perhaps a better way of putting it is that I think that going off "feeling" when choosing gear is not the most beneficial way of deciding whether that is how you make your best sound. It is an important factor for other areas, dont get me wrong, but finding your best sound, I believe is just not as simple as finding gear that feels the most comfortable on your face (or in your trigger thumb). That doesnt mean playing painfully, powering through poor technique or posture, I only mean that after you have listened to the sound you are making in a variety of contexts and are happy with it should you then consider if there are more "comfortable" and efficient ways to maintain that same quality of your best sound.

Im not saying thayers are for everyone. At all. Only that if you make a better sound on them than on a different valve, I think it would be crazy to play another valve just because you liked the sensation of not having to move your thumb as far. If you sound just as good on a different valve that has a shorter throw then you should play that valve! Just Dont handicap your sound for a different valve though.... I just dont think its worth it.
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« Reply #52 on: Dec 01, 2017, 04:23AM »

Net of all this is that there is no "free lunch".  Axial valves offer an advantage of more open feel at the expense of a longer throw and more maintenance.  Each person has to weigh what is important.
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« Reply #53 on: Dec 01, 2017, 07:52PM »

Plenty of non-pros on these instruments too.

I'm not saying the axial valve is the only option (especially for OP, I think the rotor is probably fine), but it's dogmatic to say it's NOT an option for anybody but a pro, which is pretty common advice on this forum.
The only person who said that is you. What I read is people starting a preference.  You were also the person bringing up fact that many pros make it work. I am just saying the fact that a pro can make something work doesn’t mean it would also be a good choice for an amtateur. Charlie produced great sounds on a instrument with no leadpipe. A lot of pros and amateurs have tried that with less success. We have different preferences. The most important thing is you sound good.
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« Reply #54 on: Dec 01, 2017, 09:31PM »

Wow! Amazed

Did I start something with my comment?

From my perspective it makes little difference other than I notice it (see below for the net difference).  In my case it's really a non-issue and I just mentioned for the sake of people wit small hands.  Not that I think they won;t be able to adapt, but just to state that there is a difference. Overall I actually favor the XO 1236 with the Thayer over the Shires with the rotor, but it is more than just the difference in the valve - much more.  The XO is more responsive, more even in timber and intonation through it's range, able to handle more volume without becoming unhinged and more amenable to coloration - but honestly - not by a huge amount.  The Shires is still an awesome horn.  It's just that he XO is a bit more awesome.

The only real difference the Thayer makes is in the low trigger range.  At least I attribute the XO's great performance in that range to the Thayer valve.  The reason is, I have tried the XO without the Thayer and it was not as robust down low as the one with the Thayer.  Which I guess is more to the point of the OP's original question.
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« Reply #55 on: Dec 01, 2017, 10:02PM »

Well there is pros and cons to both. Some like Axials som don´t, some prefer Rotors some don´t. The through is an issue on the Axials for some but not for others some like the open blow on the low range some pefer the more center blow on the Rotor. I can really only tell what I like, and that does not help the OP much. I have tested good horns with Axials, and some real dogs. The same with rotors. I think the best tip is, try as many horns you can and may you fall in love with one horn, buy it! That may be a Axial or Rotor. In my oppinion the Axial is not better! It is another option. Many player have horns with Axials and horns with rotors and like both.

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« Reply #56 on: Dec 01, 2017, 10:34PM »

Wow! Amazed

Did I start something with my comment?

From my perspective it makes little difference other than I notice it (see below for the net difference).  In my case it's really a non-issue and I just mentioned for the sake of people wit small hands.  Not that I think they won;t be able to adapt, but just to state that there is a difference. Overall I actually favor the XO 1236 with the Thayer over the Shires with the rotor, but it is more than just the difference in the valve - much more.  The XO is more responsive, more even in timber and intonation through it's range, able to handle more volume without becoming unhinged and more amenable to coloration - but honestly - not by a huge amount.  The Shires is still an awesome horn.  It's just that he XO is a bit more awesome.

The only real difference the Thayer makes is in the low trigger range.  At least I attribute the XO's great performance in that range to the Thayer valve.  The reason is, I have tried the XO without the Thayer and it was not as robust down low as the one with the Thayer.  Which I guess is more to the point of the OP's original question.

You didnt start anything. No one did  :D it got a little weird but i think thats just the internet.

NO ONE has said axials or rotors are definitely better.... everyone has said both have merits and disadvantages. Some people just got kind of defensive when I mentioned part of an axial that I dont believe is a disadvantage. Some do, which is fine! I think its good to hear discussion from different minds about it  :)
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« Reply #57 on: Dec 01, 2017, 11:23PM »

The only person who said that is you.

Anything but axials...
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« Reply #58 on: Dec 01, 2017, 11:53PM »

Oh yeah I forgot about the "anything but axials" quote.
I dont understand that. How is that different from saying "anything but rotor valves"? Neither is particularly helpful or constructive.

I hope the OP takes away that both have strong merits depending on playing needs. Writing one or the other off completely for no reason is not helpful for anyone.

To be fair, more people have said that both are worth exploring  Good!
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« Reply #59 on: Dec 02, 2017, 12:23AM »



That is Dan speak for he doesn’t like to play Thayer valves. He was replying to the op original question. I don’t remember him saying anything about it not being an option for anybody else. Again, the first person to bring that up was you.

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  cannot speak for Noah.  None of us can - he'll need to try them and decide for himself. 

Why don't I like them?  I don't like the blow.  I don't care for the sound I get when playing them.  I don't like the mechanical feel.  I don't like the physical feel.  AND, I think they are ugly.   Way cool  Basically, for ME, there is not one redeeming quality.
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