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Author Topic: Double valve tenor  (Read 2067 times)
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Whitbey
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« Reply #40 on: Dec 06, 2017, 06:47AM »

I have an Ab valve on my small bore.  It is the same as a first valve. I can play the fast licks all day with it. Just an extension of alternate positions. I can also play low Eb and D with it.

A tenor with an F and a trill would be nice. Trills would be useful and with both valves low C might be easier, maybe low B
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« Reply #41 on: Dec 06, 2017, 06:51AM »

Have you ever posted pictures of that? I'd love to see that!
In the gallery...



New valves will feature a more standard open wrap for Bb valve, this time on the first valve and the G valve will come forward with the tuning slide to stay compact.  All I have to do is trim the Bb tuning slide and put it all together.  Been sitting on the bench in the garage for a year or more like that, however.

Played a little squirrely, as expected, but well enough for me to do a pit show of the youth version of once upon a mattress.

Cheers,
Andy
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« Reply #42 on: Dec 06, 2017, 07:02AM »

A tenor with an F and a trill would be nice. Trills would be useful and with both valves low C might be easier, maybe low B

I don't get the idea of a trill valve (A/Ab). It sort of kills what makes trills sound unique on a trombone. The F attachment by itself makes almost any mid range trill and higher possible, and also keeps the unique sound of a lip trill intact.

The Kissbone did solve the low C/B problem by adding a quick slide into the return crook on the F attachment. Kind of like a Bartok valve, you can throw it out for Bs and Cs, and quickly close it to be back in normal tuning.
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« Reply #43 on: Dec 06, 2017, 08:23AM »

Dempster, as mentioned above had a Minnick I believed 88H with in dependent F and G valves. He played a lot of contemporary music, some of it having a lot of low notes whether intended for bass trombone or not.
Some of the pieces that Stuart Dempster may have played or commissioned from composers may have also included partial disassembly of the instrument; possibly taking off the trigger tuning slide to make some "alternative" noises. Having a second trigger allows for such techniques while still keeping your other trigger available for conventional playing. (See also the John Cage trombone solo, which at times requires the player to take off the hand slide & play it by itself, etc., etc.)
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Stan

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« Reply #44 on: Dec 06, 2017, 11:04AM »

Again, I feel like there are very few reasons to use a double valve tenor.

Bass should be played on bass (even a little Olds GR model!).

Almost every tenor part in existence can, and probably should be, played on a normal boring tenor.

EVERY once in a while, there's a contemporary solo or orchestral work that needs a low B or C a little too often or loud to play a normal tenor. And not a good piece for bass. Then I would think about a double valve tenor.

For instance, I recently saw LA Phil in concert. They opened with a new violin concerto. The principal trombonist had to play his part on a Yamaha 830 bass because the part had a low B. It also had high Ds, which made it a little more work than it would have been on a double valve tenor.

I have played a John Adams piece on tenor trombone that had many low Cs. I could pull to E pull to play them, but a double valve tenor wouldn't have been out of place.

Is this not a problem caused by the radical growth in side of the Bb/F tenor?  As tenors have creeped towards basses in size since the 90s, have they overtaken the bass in composers/arrangers minds?  Why in the world would good arrangers write a low C or B for a tenor trombone, unless they're conceiving the sound as some kind of generic "trombone" that's not really a tenor, not really a bass, and can play any note within about 5 octaves?

I think this is an interesting question.  Bb clarinets aren't often asked to do the work of a bass clarinet.
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BGuttman
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« Reply #45 on: Dec 06, 2017, 11:15AM »

I don't get the idea of a trill valve (A/Ab). It sort of kills what makes trills sound unique on a trombone. ...

If you look at "solo" trombones of the early 20th Century, many were made with trill valves (1/2 step).  The lip trill used on a trombone is actually the anomaly since nearly every other instrument has a capability of 1/2 step or whole step trill on any note.
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Bruce Guttman
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« Reply #46 on: Dec 06, 2017, 11:19AM »

If you look at "solo" trombones of the early 20th Century, many were made with trill valves (1/2 step).  The lip trill used on a trombone is actually the anomaly since nearly every other instrument has a capability of 1/2 step or whole step trill on any note.

Frescobaldi and Castillo had the trombone pulling off all kinds of crazy trills ages before anyone knew what a valve was. I imagine that the first trill played on a brass was done on a trombone.
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pete edwards
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« Reply #47 on: Dec 06, 2017, 11:31AM »

Andy,
Your pic of your Eb/Bb/F horn made me do a double take
That is very close to what I have done to my Schiller bass, the "open" horn is in C, 1st valve in F, 2nd valve is Bb ascending, meaning without pushing the finger lever, the horn is Bb, push it & the horn raises to C. Can be used as a trill valve too.
It was inspired by the Yamaha 350C, but with an F-attachment, in bass bore size. Slide has only 6 positions, but it is long enough for a good Db in the F valve. It is therefore fully chromatic down to pedal Db.
I LOVE it, play it all the time in big bands and when a smaller-ish bass sound is called for in orchestra.
The pedal C & B really speak easy in 1st & short 2nd, took a little getting used to, but now I find them much preferable to blowing thru 16ft of tubing & 2 valves to get C & B.
And it weighs almost a pound less than my "big" bass (a real back-saver on 4 hour gigs)

Ill post a pic if I can figure it out

this could easily be done with a tenor, probably be a very useful instrument. Especially for pit gigs with no slide room or room behind you.

Pete
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JohnL
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« Reply #48 on: Dec 06, 2017, 11:53AM »

Why in the world would good arrangers write a low C or B for a tenor trombone, unless they're conceiving the sound as some kind of generic "trombone" that's not really a tenor, not really a bass, and can play any note within about 5 octaves?
You said "good arrangers". The simple fact of life is that, from time to time, all of us have to play stuff that was not put together by "good" arrangers. There's also those composers/arrangers who just refuse to let the traditional limitations of an instrument stand in the way of their artistic vision.

Quote
Bb clarinets aren't often asked to do the work of a bass clarinet.
Bb clarinets are pitched an octave above the bass clarinet. Tenor trombones are pitched the same as (modern) bass trombones; I think there are some people who don't quite get the concept that the range of a straight tenor trombone is discontinuous. "Whaddaya mean it can play A1 but not C2? A1 is lower than C2!"

Frescobaldi and Castillo had the trombone pulling off all kinds of crazy trills ages before anyone knew what a valve was. I imagine that the first trill played on a brass was done on a trombone.
Either that or a natural horn.
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« Reply #49 on: Dec 06, 2017, 12:26PM »

Bb clarinets are pitched an octave above the bass clarinet. Tenor trombones are pitched the same as (modern) bass trombones; I think there are some people who don't quite get the concept that the range of a straight tenor trombone is discontinuous. "Whaddaya mean it can play A1 but not C2? A1 is lower than C2!"

Yeah, there are occasions where there are only two parts in orchestra, particular insofar as pops concert type stuff (show tunes) are concerned.

And that second bone part can be anywhere in either the bass or tenor range. I could easily imagine a circumstance in that sort of show where a double-valved tenor might prove handy, especially if you've only got two trombones for the entire concert, rather than trying to switch instruments on the fly.

That being said, I'm not in a huge hurry to drop $3k on a special valve section just for a subset of a subset of concerts in one type of ensemble, but it's not the worst idea in the world.
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« Reply #50 on: Dec 07, 2017, 07:49AM »

Having read the TubeNet site for a while now-
Wouldn't it just save a lot of time for every beginning low brass player ( tuba or trombone ) just begin on F tuba, and have all low brass players just play F tuba?
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hyperbolica
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« Reply #51 on: Dec 07, 2017, 08:15AM »

Having read the TubeNet site for a while now-
Wouldn't it just save a lot of time for every beginning low brass player ( tuba or trombone ) just begin on F tuba, and have all low brass players just play F tuba?


Yeah. Even a 4v compensating euphonium gives easier access to the same range as a double plug bone and a tenor put together (although it costs twice as much). And according to my wife, sounds even better ;o)
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« Reply #52 on: Dec 07, 2017, 09:45AM »

And according to my wife, sounds even better ;o)
It's the horn or her, friend.
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« Reply #53 on: Dec 07, 2017, 11:29AM »

Having read the TubeNet site for a while now-
Wouldn't it just save a lot of time for every beginning low brass player ( tuba or trombone ) just begin on F tuba, and have all low brass players just play F tuba?


With 4, 5, or 6 valves?

Back in the Bad Old Days all tuba players started on Eb tuba because it was smaller and easier for young players to blow.  And a 4 valve Compensating Eb can cover the range really well.
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Bruce Guttman
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« Reply #54 on: Dec 07, 2017, 01:15PM »

Mick Rath made a 2 valve R4F for. Actually, it is the double bell trombone in my avatar.
When I don't need the second bell I can put in a D slide and have a Bb-F-D tenor.
I wasn't expecting it to be as good as it is because I was mainly after a good, full range double bell instrument.
I use it quite a lot. I wouldn't use it for 1st trombone in an orchestra but for a smallish bass, it's great.
I personally think the Rath build (Hagmann valves, no bracing in the tuning slide area) keep the weight light enough to make it work. It still sounds like a tenor.

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Whitbey
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« Reply #55 on: Dec 07, 2017, 08:08PM »

I don't get the idea of a trill valve (A/Ab). It sort of kills what makes trills sound unique on a trombone. The F attachment by itself makes almost any mid range trill and higher possible, and also keeps the unique sound of a lip trill intact.

The Kissbone did solve the low C/B problem by adding a quick slide into the return crook on the F attachment. Kind of like a Bartok valve, you can throw it out for Bs and Cs, and quickly close it to be back in normal tuning.

To clarify. If I did a 547 double valve I would do and F and an A trill.

For my jazz small bore I did a first valve or Ab. Maybe think just one valve of a superbone. Makes the licks go easy. And having done it I see the benefit of a trill and the Ab more then using the same thing you would for a bass bone.

An example of a quick F scale with the Ab valve. F in 1st, G in V2nd, A in 2nd, Bb in V3, C in 3, D in V2, E in 2 and F in short V2. then back down. All sounds smooth and easy. For me it is easy. I play great solos and make the rest of the trombone section say let me try that.


A photo of the Ab.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1izx3nh_iQyQjhsQ2pLMU9rd1k/view?usp=sharing
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« Reply #56 on: Dec 08, 2017, 07:06AM »

I just like instruments with lots of devices to pull, push, rotate and so on.... :D :D :D
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EWadie99
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« Reply #57 on: Dec 10, 2017, 04:27PM »

Also, if a double valve tenor comes about, it should not be used with a 5G or 6.5AL IMHO.  It kind of defeats the purpose of having a "small" bass for lighter settings.  It also shouldn't be used for first part playing as again, it defeats the purpose.  If anything, I think it would go well with something in the 3G range or a little bigger like a Denis Wick 3AL, Schilke 57, etc. 
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« Reply #58 on: Dec 10, 2017, 04:43PM »

Also, if a double valve tenor comes about, it should not be used with a 5G or 6.5AL IMHO.  It kind of defeats the purpose of having a "small" bass for lighter settings.  It also shouldn't be used for first part playing as again, it defeats the purpose.  If anything, I think it would go well with something in the 3G range or a little bigger like a Denis Wick 3AL, Schilke 57, etc. 

I think you missed the point of the modification. It's so that you can play tenor and hit the C when it comes up, or play tenor as a bass player and not accidentally go for the second trigger and it not be there. It would work well as a small bass, but also could and should be used with whatever tenor mouthpiece someone would normally play on.

I don't think this instrument would really find a place outside of small niche playing.
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« Reply #59 on: Dec 11, 2017, 01:48PM »

Why not add a third valve while we're at it, solder the handslide in place, play French Horn and Bass Trumpet parts and call it a day.

Well, add a third valve and don't soldier the slide ... like James Morrison plays the Schagerl superhorn https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CUfge7nUuiE
 and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-6nZZrs9Xk
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