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The Trombone ForumHorns, Gear, and EquipmentInstruments(Moderators: tbone62, slide advantage) Independent Sterling King Duo Gravis Bass Trombone ???
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Author Topic: Independent Sterling King Duo Gravis Bass Trombone ???  (Read 1225 times)
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Bob Weller

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« on: Dec 05, 2017, 10:38AM »

Has anybody else noticed this unusual independent version?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/King-6B-Duo-Gravis-Silversonic-Professional-Bass-Trombone-Bb-F-Gb-D-NICE-QuinnTh/263346992424?_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIM.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D41375%26meid%3D152007761a3243bea81b39ba298a129f%26pid%3D100011%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D12%26sd%3D263355173748&_trksid=p2047675.c100011.m1850

I have never seen a Duo Gravis from this era that was independent and it is a Silver Sonic.

Thanks, Bob 
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Bob Weller
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BGuttman
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« Reply #1 on: Dec 05, 2017, 10:53AM »

It's not a 6B, it's a 7B.  The 7B was available in SilverSonic as well.
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Bruce Guttman
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« Reply #2 on: Dec 05, 2017, 11:03AM »

For a short while, the Duo Gravis name was applied to the 7B, which would make sense in this case. Notice that "6B" is nowhere to be found in the bell engraving.

It could also be custom. The configuration of the tubing where it exits the valve isn't characteristic of Kings from that era. Most had a right-angle bend where this horn has a straight exit from the rear of the valve. The linkages don't match each other, with the F-trigger being square stock and the Gb-trigger being round.
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BGuttman
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« Reply #3 on: Dec 05, 2017, 11:07AM »

For comparison, here's my 1980 King 7B

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Bruce Guttman
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Bob Weller

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« Reply #4 on: Dec 05, 2017, 11:16AM »

I was noticing a couple things that made me curious.  The serial number still on the slide instead of a slide number.  Earlier style straps in case bell mount. Engraving on the bell.

Thanks, Bob
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Bob Weller
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JohnL
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« Reply #5 on: Dec 05, 2017, 11:25AM »

For comparison, here's my 1980 King 7B


That's a significantly different wrap. Note the hard turns on the return side of each attachment. Later 7B's did flatten out the forward loop on the inlet side of the attachments, but I do not think think they ever changed the return side (the current Wessex 7B clone still has the same sharp bends).

My vote is for a custom, either by a very good independent shop or a factory special/prototype.

Hey, Jonathan Hodgetts! If you intend to continue making the PBF562, you might want to consider changing the attachments wraps to incorporate the smoother transitions that this horn has.
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« Reply #6 on: Dec 05, 2017, 11:28AM »

I don't think this is the right case for the instrument.  The accessory box toward the back end interferes with the F-slide.  My King 7B had a case with no accessory box back there.

Note that King cases of the period had a pair of plastic tabs that held the bell brace.  These tabs would break and you had to figure out something else to keep the bell section in position.  Plastic foam was a common choice.
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Bruce Guttman
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« Reply #7 on: Dec 05, 2017, 11:48AM »

Quinn was kind enough to include a clear pic of the serial number. 494007, which dates the instrument to sometime around 1974-1975. Too early for a 2107. It's a DG (Model 1490).

The way the returns are set up reminds me of some of George McCracken's work of French horns. Of course, there's lots of other people who do stuff like that.

Bruce, you may be right about the case. The bell barely fits. You can also see where someone has cut away part of the partition of the slide pocket. Maybe someone wanted a smaller case so they shoehorned it into one for a 5B/1480?
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« Reply #8 on: Dec 05, 2017, 11:55AM »

agreed, a 5B case-- but not an H.N. White era one, as those were the alligator hide finish.

If it were from '74/'75 it should have nylon linkage on the valves somewhere. A mystery for sure.

Could it just be a later model with a sterling DG bell grafted on....much less work that way?
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EWadie99
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« Reply #9 on: Dec 05, 2017, 12:10PM »

Even though I was disappointed to find out that it's not an actual 7B silversonic, but it's also interesting to hear the fact that they did exsist at one point! 

It looks to me to be a modified King Duo Gravis (6B) SS with a King 7B valve section added by a previous owner. 
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Ethan Wadie
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« Reply #10 on: Dec 05, 2017, 02:42PM »

agreed, a 5B case-- but not an H.N. White era one, as those were the alligator hide finish.

If it were from '74/'75 it should have nylon linkage on the valves somewhere. A mystery for sure.

Could it just be a later model with a sterling DG bell grafted on....much less work that way?
More likely a DG with a custom valve section. The slide is from 74-75, so it's definitely not just a DG bell grafted onto a 7B or 8B.

DG bell (and marked as such)
DG slide
King valves with black plastic stop plates
OEM King linkage on the f valve
Custom linkage on Gb valve. It still uses the plastic part that the string attaches to, but the metal lever is unlike those used on the 7B, 8B, or Benge 290.
Custom attachment wraps, similar to 7B/8B, but with improvements.

Based on the stop plates, I'd guess that the valves are probably newer than the rest of the horn, likely from a 7B. The plastic parts in the linkage look like the pics of 7B/8B parts I see on the web. For some reason, they felt it necessary to fabricate a new lever for the Gb valve. Instead of pushing the valve open and pulling it closed, the new lever pulls it open and pushes it closed.
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boneagain
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« Reply #11 on: Dec 05, 2017, 05:33PM »

More likely a DG with a custom valve section. The slide is from 74-75, so it's definitely not just a DG bell grafted onto a 7B or 8B.

DG bell (and marked as such)
DG slide
King valves with black plastic stop plates
OEM King linkage on the f valve
Custom linkage on Gb valve. It still uses the plastic part that the string attaches to, but the metal lever is unlike those used on the 7B, 8B, or Benge 290.
Custom attachment wraps, similar to 7B/8B, but with improvements.

Based on the stop plates, I'd guess that the valves are probably newer than the rest of the horn, likely from a 7B. The plastic parts in the linkage look like the pics of 7B/8B parts I see on the web. For some reason, they felt it necessary to fabricate a new lever for the Gb valve. Instead of pushing the valve open and pulling it closed, the new lever pulls it open and pushes it closed.

... and the thought plickens!

Take a close look at the stop-plate side of the valve.  I don't think King ever did those on a "real" 7B.  In fact, they stopped doing that removable plate on the 6B Duo Gravis.  I'm going to guess those are BOTH regular Duo Gravis valves.  This would explain the difference in tubing layout noted earlier in this thread.  I think this was a "real" Duo Gravis, retrofitted to a (then) new 7B tubing set, using 6B valves... only two parts to custom-fabricate.

I wish I could try this horn!

Are we all SURE King made a Silver Sonic version of the 7B?  I haven't found one in the few catalogs I've been able to see PDFs of.
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Dave Adams
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« Reply #12 on: Dec 05, 2017, 06:38PM »



Are we all SURE King made a Silver Sonic version of the 7B?  I haven't found one in the few catalogs I've been able to see PDFs of.

Anecdotal, but I've never seen one. Plenty of the 6B, 2016, Duo Gravis, but never an independent stock SilverSonic.
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« Reply #13 on: Dec 06, 2017, 05:04AM »

So, whoever cobbled this together had access to the new 7/8B attachment bends, the "old" 6B valves (complete with removable bottom cap and hold-down rings), new plastic stop plates and string arms, and means to custom fabricate a couple 45 degree legs.

I'll ask Mr. McCracken about this when I see him today.  I suspect we might learn something by emailing Chuck Ward, though.
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Dave Adams
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« Reply #14 on: Dec 06, 2017, 01:15PM »

I brought the pictures to George McCracken this morning.  He cannot specifically recall building that.  He DID say that the angles coming out of the valves (one 45 instead of a 45 and a 90) are much like what he originally worked on on the first iterations of the 7B.  He also noted that there were a NUMBER of semi-custom requests handled at King around this time.  He said it IS possible he put it together.  Long time ago :)  Actually, he smiled two or more times, but enough emoticons.

Considering the parts used, HIGH likelihood it came from the factory this way, and was a very special order.
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Dave Adams
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« Reply #15 on: Dec 06, 2017, 09:21PM »

The first listing he had it for $400 less. https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F263355173748
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bonesmarsh
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« Reply #16 on: Dec 07, 2017, 05:45AM »

Something I've noticed is that for a long long time there were no DGs for sale anywhere. And nobody wanted them.

The peanut gallery on TTF chirps positively, and horns show up for sale at inflated prices. Watch for it-- a good thread about a Conn 70H, and Conn 70Hs show up for sale at high prices.

Threads about obscure Conn basses, and 83Hs show up at high prices.

One thing about the old DG, and I bought mine in 1979, is that it arrived on the cusp of the dependent/independent wars. Independent horns were offered to counter the small size of the Bach valves in the 50B2 line. So, the independent wars were on.
Not a whole lot of R&D being done to improve a horn to make it feel and sound like a single valve horn, just a lot of soldering and bending. Usually it did not work, but it made a lot of stinker horns show up on the market to capture market share when the double valve in-lines took market share.
Follow the money, and you'll find the root of all R&D.
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Dan Hine

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« Reply #17 on: Dec 07, 2017, 06:28AM »

Something I've noticed is that for a long long time there were no DGs for sale anywhere. And nobody wanted them.

The peanut gallery on TTF chirps positively, and horns show up for sale at inflated prices. Watch for it-- a good thread about a Conn 70H, and Conn 70Hs show up for sale at high prices.

Threads about obscure Conn basses, and 83Hs show up at high prices.



Perhaps we should regularly start threads talking about how terrible these instruments are.  Worth a shot?   Don't know   :)
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« Reply #18 on: Dec 07, 2017, 06:53AM »

There was a thread claiming that 83H's are great?  I would love to see that!
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bonesmarsh
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« Reply #19 on: Dec 07, 2017, 07:46AM »

Check the classifieds.

10 years ago nobody outside the hard-core OCD bone community knew the word "Elkhart." See?
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