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Ellrod

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« on: Dec 06, 2017, 09:07AM »

So Trump will move the US embassy in Israel to Jerusalem.

Leadership or walking ignorantly (and unnecessarily) into a hornet's nest?

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BGuttman
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« Reply #1 on: Dec 06, 2017, 09:22AM »

Ignorance uber alles.

He's creating messes that will take years to fix.  Even if he's succeeded by a Republican.
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Bruce Guttman
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« Reply #2 on: Dec 06, 2017, 10:38AM »

So much for the US playing any meaningful role in attempted peace negotiations.
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robcat2075

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« Reply #3 on: Dec 06, 2017, 10:44AM »

It's not ignorance. It is an intentional sabotage of America's influence in the world.
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Robert Holmén

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« Reply #4 on: Dec 06, 2017, 11:15AM »

Point of interest -- as I understand the situation, the decision *not* to move the embassy to Jerusalem must be revisited every 6 months, a condition that has held for some time.  I'm not in full possession of the details, and this is neither to support nor condemn the current moves, but it adds yet another layer of complexity.
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« Reply #5 on: Dec 06, 2017, 11:20AM »

Our Fearless Leader is playing checkers on a 3 dimensional chess board.  I really don't think he evaluates options very well.  Maybe that's why his casinos all failed.
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Bruce Guttman
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« Reply #6 on: Dec 06, 2017, 12:14PM »

Our Dictator For Life is not playing chess, checkers, dominoes, or even tiddly-winks.  It's all Hubris.  Damn the evidence or what's best, it's my way or the highway (oh, and did I mention, my way changes more often than a stripper takes off her clothes?.)
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« Reply #7 on: Dec 06, 2017, 12:58PM »

Sometime I think Mr. Trump gets up in the morning, thinks "what's the stupidist thing I can do today?", and then does it.

I have gotten addicted to the Trumpcast podcast on Slate. Give that a listen sometime.
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Ellrod

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« Reply #8 on: Dec 06, 2017, 01:07PM »

Pence and the true believers would be in favour. They'd likely see it as doing God's work.
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Graham Martin
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« Reply #9 on: Dec 06, 2017, 01:08PM »

It did not notice this topic until I had already posted this elsewhere. I agree with most of the posts:

The latest stupidity from Trump is his decision to recognise Jerusalem as Israel's capital and move the US embassy from Tel Aviv. Far from being the "long overdue" step to advance the peace process, as he claims, this is going against the sensible agreement in most of the Western world for a two-state solution between Israel and the Palestinians, with Jerusalem as a final-status issue that should be resolved through direct talks. Australian Foreign Minister Julie Bishop has just strongly reiterated that point of view. It is also the past US position, which was studiously and sensibly neutral over the sovereignty of the city.

Apart from abandoning the US position as the chief arbitrator, he is breaking international law, that for decades has ruled it is illegal for Israel to declare Jerusalem its capital.

The UN Secretary General sums up the stupidity of Trump:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-12-07/un-secretary-general-says-there-is-no-plan-b-in/9234376
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« Reply #10 on: Dec 06, 2017, 02:30PM »

Aside from the UN, the EU, the pope, even China, and basically everyone else saying it was a stupid and counterproductive move...


https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/06/us/politics/tillerson-trump-jerusalem-peace.html
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But in his own comments Wednesday after meeting Mr. Cavusoglu, Mr. Tillerson said diplomats had barely brought up the subject with him.

“We haven’t had a lot of talks about that,” Mr. Tillerson said.

Because... why talk with your diplomats when making major foreign policy changes?
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« Reply #11 on: Dec 06, 2017, 03:49PM »

Unbelievable.

Yet I know one person in the forum who will undoubtedly defend his actions.
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« Reply #12 on: Dec 06, 2017, 04:18PM »

I do believe that your house voted this to happen in 1996 or a cut of 50% in the budget concerning embassy's would happen....this has been off set by a presidential waver signed every 6 months since....  Also your Potus did say he would make this happen during his campaign so just delivering what the voters wanted !
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« Reply #13 on: Dec 06, 2017, 04:49PM »

Trump and the Art of the Giveaway

Quote
...In nearly 30 years of covering United States foreign policy, I’ve never seen a president give up so much to so many for so little, starting with China and Israel. In both the Middle Kingdom and in the Land of Israel, Christmas came early this year. The Chinese and the Jews are both whispering to their kids: “There really is a Santa Claus.”

And his name is Donald Trump.

Who can blame them? Let’s start with Israel, every Israeli government since its founding has craved United States recognition of Jerusalem as its capital. And every United States government has refrained from doing that, arguing that such a recognition should come only in the wake of an agreed final status peace accord between Israelis and Palestinians — until now.

Today, Trump just gave it away — for free. Such a deal! Why in the world would you just give this away for free and not even use it as a lever to advance the prospect of an Israeli-Palestinian deal?

Quote
...Just ask the Chinese. Basically, his first day in office, Trump tore up the 12-nation Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP) free-trade deal — clearly without having read it or asked China for any trade concession in return. Trump simply threw out the window the single most valuable tool America had for shaping the geoeconomic future of the region our way and for pressuring China to open its markets to more United States goods.

Trump is now trying to negotiate trade openings with China alone — bilaterally — and getting basically nowhere. And yet he could have been negotiating with China as the head of a 12-nation TPP trading bloc that was based on United States values and interests and that controlled 40 percent of the global economy. Think of the leverage we lost...


... just delivering what the voters wanted !

Recall that the voters didn't actually vote for him.

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Robert Holmén

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« Reply #14 on: Dec 06, 2017, 04:51PM »

I do believe that your house voted this to happen in 1996 or a cut of 50% in the budget concerning embassy's would happen....this has been off set by a presidential waver signed every 6 months since....  Also your Potus did say he would make this happen during his campaign so just delivering what the voters wanted !
The voters often don't have the full picture.  For that matter neither do the candidates.  There are a lot of reasons for not moving the embassy to Jerusalem which is why it hasn't happened since 1948 when Israel was founded.

Not unlike your vote to exit the European Union.  Only now are all the sordid consequences coming to light.  One example: Ireland.
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Bruce Guttman
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« Reply #15 on: Dec 06, 2017, 09:33PM »

In 1848, Jerusalem wasn’t in Israel.
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« Reply #16 on: Dec 06, 2017, 10:56PM »

Aside from the UN, the EU, the pope, even China, and basically everyone else saying it was a stupid and counterproductive move...


https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/06/us/politics/tillerson-trump-jerusalem-peace.html
Because... why talk with your diplomats when making major foreign policy changes?

Interesting how Russia hasn't said anything.  If I was a conspiracy theorist, I would say that this move (identifying Jersusalem as the capitol of Israel, and the ensuing destabilization of the middle east) is all part of the master plan that Trump agreed to after Putin helped win him the presidency.  Robert Reich did a great video on this idea.
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« Reply #17 on: Dec 07, 2017, 12:19AM »

Interesting how Russia hasn't said anything.  If I was a conspiracy theorist, I would say that this move (identifying Jersusalem as the capitol of Israel, and the ensuing destabilization of the middle east) is all part of the master plan that Trump agreed to after Putin helped win him the presidency.  Robert Reich did a great video on this idea.

Trump is clearly not intelligent enough to be part of a conspiracy. Also his incapacity of not bragging and holding his tongue would make him a particularly poor conspirator.
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Maximilien Brisson
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« Reply #18 on: Dec 07, 2017, 04:10AM »

In 1848, Jerusalem wasn’t in Israel.

In 1848 there was no country called Israel.  In fact, even the British domination had not occurred yet.

Shortly after the partition vote in 1948 the Haganah captured Jerusalem from the Arabs.  Israel has consistently claimed Jerusalem as its capital, although there are resistances in the area.
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Bruce Guttman
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« Reply #19 on: Dec 07, 2017, 04:36AM »

I’m still clinging to the hope that maybe this is what jerks the world into realizing that there is absolutely no desire for peace among the Palestinian and Israeli governments.  There is just not lasting desire to mediate a solution, because neither side wants to give anything, and they’re fine being locked in a perpetual, violent stalemate.  Both sides seemingly think they can “win” by biding their time and doing nothing, and they’re both kind of right.  Jewish settlements will eventually push Palestinians out, but Arab birth rates will eventually reclaim the bulk of the population.  If they wanted peace, they’d have had it by now.

There is a lot of truth in the statement that Trump’s administration is simply verbally recognizing what’s been in place for 50 years.  That doesn’t mean they should have done it, but that’s where we are.  Maybe it’s a good thing that the United States, which is clearly pro-Isreal, ceded its place at the negotiating table.
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« Reply #20 on: Dec 07, 2017, 05:57AM »

This is another slap in the face to Muslims. This POTUS constantly displays his hatred for them, and as long as he is in the White House we will never be an effective mediator for Peace in the Middle East.  This move is also going to inspire Extremist Muslim Terrorists to increase there efforts for terrorist attacks in the US.  We have a long history of supporting Israel (right or wrong) over all other interests in the region, is it any wonder that other factions over there hate us. 
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Ellrod

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« Reply #21 on: Dec 07, 2017, 07:21AM »

In 1848 there was no country called Israel.  In fact, even the British domination had not occurred yet.

Shortly after the partition vote in 1948 the Haganah captured Jerusalem from the Arabs.  Israel has consistently claimed Jerusalem as its capital, although there are resistances in the area.

I meant 1948.

And the old city is in East Jerusalem, which was in Jordan until the 6-day war.

Point remains: captured territory, disputed territory.
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« Reply #22 on: Dec 08, 2017, 02:07PM »

I'm ready to call this a bit of a nothingburger. It will **** a lot of people off for a while, but it isn't really anything but a recognition of reality that was already legislated by the US Congress more than 20 years ago. It does not preclude the Israelis and the Palestinians from negotiating a Palestinian capitol in East Jerusalem should there ever be serious talks again. For once, I am willing to give the Orangutang a bit of slack on this one. We'll see where it leads.
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« Reply #23 on: Dec 08, 2017, 03:10PM »

Maybe, but the furor was unnecessary and people will end up dead and injured as a result.
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« Reply #24 on: Dec 09, 2017, 05:37AM »

True, but, sadly, people end up dead and injured in that region for pretty much any action that is taken, no matter how trivial. We'll see if this has the planned effect of a positive jolt to the system.
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« Reply #25 on: Dec 09, 2017, 02:27PM »

Four people have already been killed by Israeli troops over the last three days, after violence erupted in Gaza in response to President Donald Trump's announcement on Wednesday.

It is not surprising that Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas has refused to meet US Vice-President Mike Pence during Mr Pence's visit to the region this month. I think Pence had better be very careful where he goes on that visit. His presence behind Trump when he made the announcement makes him a prime target for Palestinian factions.
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« Reply #26 on: Dec 09, 2017, 04:56PM »

True, but, sadly, people end up dead and injured in that region for pretty much any action that is taken, no matter how trivial. We'll see if this has the planned effect of a positive jolt to the system.

Shazam...There may be a bit of agreement here...Crazy Times!
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« Reply #27 on: Dec 09, 2017, 08:02PM »

Shazam...There may be a bit of agreement here...Crazy Times!

Well, don't get me wrong. He gave up the US' biggest poker chip and got absolutely nothing in return. He has proved over and over again that he is absolutley terrible at negotiating, and this move has further distanced the US from our traditional allies. He is isolating us a at very dangerous time in the world. That said, this will get some people killed, but it may not be the totsl disaster many think it is.
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« Reply #28 on: Dec 09, 2017, 10:20PM »

The problem is, we've moved from "not a disaster" to "might not be a disaster"

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Robert Holmén

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« Reply #29 on: Dec 10, 2017, 04:59AM »

The problem is, we've moved from "not a disaster" to "might not be a disaster"



Again, WELL....the region is, and has been for centuries, a disaster. My point was this bit of buffoonery might not be an immediate calamity other than a few more pointless deaths.
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