Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length

 
Advanced search

1092893 Posts in 72336 Topics- by 19432 Members - Latest Member: joshealejo
Jump to:  
The Trombone ForumCreation and PerformanceMusical Miscellany(Moderators: JP, BGuttman) James Levine, students, festivals
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 5  All   Go Down
Print
Author Topic: James Levine, students, festivals  (Read 3455 times)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Greg Waits
*
*
Offline Offline

Location: Rowlett Texas USA
Joined: Apr 18, 2016
Posts: 852

View Profile WWW
« Reply #20 on: Dec 10, 2017, 09:02AM »

I recall an architecture grad student who signed up for first year music theory explaining that when he was in first year, the 4th year students got the girls, when he was in 4th year, the grad students got the girls, and when he became a grad student, the profs got the girls.
:-0
Logged
harrison.t.reed
*
Offline Offline

Location: Colorado
Joined: Apr 5, 2007
Posts: 2836
"Spartan Brass Band!"


View Profile
« Reply #21 on: Dec 10, 2017, 10:00AM »

I recall an architecture grad student who signed up for first year music theory explaining that when he was in first year, the 4th year students got the girls, when he was in 4th year, the grad students got the girls, and when he became a grad student, the profs got the girls.

This kind of preconceived/perpetuated culture is no good, but still. Are the people observing this system forcing others to do things they didn't want to do and participating in it, or is it just someone observing that women at the school aren't going out with them, but are gravitating towards whoever is in a senior position? It's easy to paint it as a horrific civil rights problem, but it's not a secret that people are often attracted to someone in a superior social position.

Again, this is talking about a college institution where nearly everyone at that institution is, for better or for worse, legally an adult.

Also, if the school doesn't have a code of ethics in place forbidding relationships between faculty and students then ...  Don't know

I guess the thing I struggle with is that there is a pretty large gray area between something that is legally OK and something that is absolutely unlawful and amoral. On the surface, the above quote seems barbaric, but it's already painted in a certain light by the phrasing.

"Women at XYZ college, according to a poll, are 50% more likely than men to date someone from a class ahead of them. Female grad students are known to often date their teachers." presents the same information with no bias. It seems to me that the real problems that are being brought up with the "me too" movement should be solved at the lowest level. Victims should report foul behavior, straight away. But before it even comes to that, their colleagues and their boss' colleagues should be vocal as well if they see foul behavior happening. Saying "hey, you can't say that at work. That's completely unprofessional " is a far better solution than these media scoops. And when the victim does have to report it, it's not just some allegation. They would have ten people of both genders who could say, "oh yeah, we've all seen this kind of behavior". In other words, shame on all the employees at some of these places where they see the boss touching their coworker, or saying obscene things, and they don't do anything about it or speak up. The victim shouldn't even have to file a complaint.

Contrast that with a college student who was asked out by their teacher, agreed, dated for a while, and then came to terms with the fact that they both might have had alterior motives for getting into a relationship, and THEN says "me too", or even worse, has someone else look at the situation and say "them too". I'm skeptical of everyone in these kinds of cases, and I have a feeling that this kind of situation is far and away more common than the really horrific stories the media reports. Is this a bad way to think?
Logged

"My technique is as good as Initial D"
T-396A - Griego 1C
88HTCL - Griego 1C
36H - DE XT105, C+, D Alto Shank
3B/F Silversonic - Griego 1A ss
pBone (with Yellow bell for bright tone)
Andrew Meronek

*
Offline Offline

Location: Livonia, MI
Joined: Sep 30, 2001
Posts: 6979
"Justly Intoned"


View Profile
« Reply #22 on: Dec 10, 2017, 10:14AM »

I recall an architecture grad student who signed up for first year music theory explaining that when he was in first year, the 4th year students got the girls, when he was in 4th year, the grad students got the girls, and when he became a grad student, the profs got the girls.

Reminds me of the film A Beautiful Mind.
Logged

"All musicians are subconsciously mathematicians."

- Thelonious Monk
robcat2075

*
Offline Offline

Location: Dallas, Texas
Joined: Apr 19, 2009
Posts: 6640

View Profile
« Reply #23 on: Dec 10, 2017, 11:35AM »

I think people are trying to conflate things that don't belong together.

If a college student and a faculty are willingly, genuinely romantically attracted to each other... OK, I can sort of see that, although it still seems a bad idea.


But when the teacher says to a student, "We need to jack off right now.  It's crucial for your musical development," and if the student says "no" he gets cut off from further legitimate instruction... the "they're both legal adults" defense isn't valid.

That is the James Levine situation. Even if you're "21" it's easy to get drawn into a bad situation when everyone important is telling you what a genius this guy is and how special it is to be able to study with him and... how do you know they're wrong when you aren't old enough to know that's not how it really works?

Logged

Robert Holmén

Hear me as I Play My Horn


Get your Popper, Dotzauer, or Kummer play-alongs!
harrison.t.reed
*
Offline Offline

Location: Colorado
Joined: Apr 5, 2007
Posts: 2836
"Spartan Brass Band!"


View Profile
« Reply #24 on: Dec 10, 2017, 12:01PM »

Yeah, that is messed up.

Is that the norm that gets overlaid onto all educators running these festivals? Or is the norm more of a gray area where some students are trying to get with teachers, and some teachers want to get with their students, and basically all involved parties are cruddy and flawed? That's what I'm saying.  These media stories are outrageous, but is it the norm?
Logged

"My technique is as good as Initial D"
T-396A - Griego 1C
88HTCL - Griego 1C
36H - DE XT105, C+, D Alto Shank
3B/F Silversonic - Griego 1A ss
pBone (with Yellow bell for bright tone)
robcat2075

*
Offline Offline

Location: Dallas, Texas
Joined: Apr 19, 2009
Posts: 6640

View Profile
« Reply #25 on: Dec 10, 2017, 12:07PM »

Yeah, that is messed up.

Is that the norm that gets overlaid onto all educators running these festivals?

The norm? I would say there are enough cases that anyone running a festival or school should put a procedure in place so that it can't happen instead of just claiming "we haven't heard of it happening".
Logged

Robert Holmén

Hear me as I Play My Horn


Get your Popper, Dotzauer, or Kummer play-alongs!
robcat2075

*
Offline Offline

Location: Dallas, Texas
Joined: Apr 19, 2009
Posts: 6640

View Profile
« Reply #26 on: Dec 14, 2017, 11:17AM »

Conservatory prof...

Three schools sever ties with influential musician amid abuse allegations

Quote
In multiple interviews, however, four former Boston Conservatory students described unwanted sexual advances by Hewitt — allegations that included bullying, lewd phone calls and text messages, propositions, and, in one incident, sexual assault.

The women, who ranged from 21 to 29 at the time of the alleged incidents, described a period dating to 2012 in which Hewitt used his considerable sway at the conservatory to run roughshod over young musicians just embarking on their careers.

The Globe confirmed their accounts with contemporaneous communications, medical records, and multiple interviews with friends, family, colleagues, and professors who learned of Hewitt’s behavior soon after it occurred.

The Globe has confirmed that at least two of the incidents shared by the women — including the alleged sexual assault — were reported to conservatory faculty soon after they occurred.

Long article includes rape-drug incident.
Logged

Robert Holmén

Hear me as I Play My Horn


Get your Popper, Dotzauer, or Kummer play-alongs!
JasonDonnelly
Unfortunate Amateur

*
Offline Offline

Location: Central Florida
Joined: Jan 12, 2015
Posts: 68

View Profile
« Reply #27 on: Dec 14, 2017, 05:20PM »

If the Met can out James Levine, then I think that the Cleveland Orchestra should be getting pretty nervous right about now.
Logged

Frost School of Music: BM Euphonium Performance '21

Bach Stradivarius 50B3 (Ferguson JR)
Besson Prestige 2052 Euphonium (Denis Wick SM4U)
Olds Custom P-16 (Yamaha 48)
robcat2075

*
Offline Offline

Location: Dallas, Texas
Joined: Apr 19, 2009
Posts: 6640

View Profile
« Reply #28 on: Dec 15, 2017, 07:57AM »

More Levine...

The human cost of the James Levine climate

Quote
Our contact was on the music staff at the Met as a young man in the 1980s. He was approached one day by the music director, who ‘stuck his hand down my pants’. Our contact indicated that he was not interested, and that was it.

No big deal, you might say. Everyone was above the age of consent. What followed, however, is indicative of the corrosive atmosphere at the Met and how careers could be made or broken at one man’s whim.

From the moment he declined the sexual proposition, our contact became invisible in the building. No-one wanted to work with him. If he asked why, he would be told he ‘was not good enough’. A clique around the music director was there to enforce his wishes.
Logged

Robert Holmén

Hear me as I Play My Horn


Get your Popper, Dotzauer, or Kummer play-alongs!
robcat2075

*
Offline Offline

Location: Dallas, Texas
Joined: Apr 19, 2009
Posts: 6640

View Profile
« Reply #29 on: Dec 15, 2017, 12:55PM »


Another interesting detail from that post... Norman Lebrecht says he was the one that told Ashok Pai to make a police report last year.

Some combination of a formal report and the police deciding to do what investigating they could is what got this all rolling.
Logged

Robert Holmén

Hear me as I Play My Horn


Get your Popper, Dotzauer, or Kummer play-alongs!
robcat2075

*
Offline Offline

Location: Dallas, Texas
Joined: Apr 19, 2009
Posts: 6640

View Profile
« Reply #30 on: Dec 21, 2017, 10:42AM »

Charles Dutoit now.  Multiple (adult) victims coming forward.

Quote
I’m glad these women have come forward. I spent a summer as an intern at Tanglewood. Charles Dutoit manouvered me against a wall and put his hand on my breast. I fled his dressing room- I’d only gone in to drop off some documents.

I alerted the orchestra manager , who told me (too late…) that they usually advised women not to enter his dressing room unaccompanied, as there had been previous complaints.

So they knew what was going on… I have never felt angrier or less protected by an organisation. They continued to employ him, whilst knowing he harassed women.

Logged

Robert Holmén

Hear me as I Play My Horn


Get your Popper, Dotzauer, or Kummer play-alongs!
JohnL
Edge Monster

*
Offline Offline

Location: Anaheim, CA, USA
Joined: Aug 1, 2004
Posts: 7262

View Profile WWW
« Reply #31 on: Dec 21, 2017, 11:18AM »

Charles Dutoit now.  Multiple (adult) victims coming forward.
I'm afraid we're going to find that this is just the tip of the proverbial iceberg. People that are perceived as being so talented, so important, so utterly irreplaceable that they can do what they will and the institutions for which they work will protect them.

Here's a thought:
Have these people worked their way into these positions and then been corrupted by the utter lack of accountability, or were they always scumbags and worked their way into these positions so they could commit these acts with impunity?
Logged

Question change.
Embrace progress.
Take the time to learn the difference.
sf105
*
Offline Offline

Location: London
Joined: Sep 22, 2011
Posts: 266

View Profile
« Reply #32 on: Dec 21, 2017, 11:42AM »

Charles Dutoit now.[/url]  Multiple (adult) victims coming forward.

Damn. I loved his recordings with Montreal.

S
Logged
robcat2075

*
Offline Offline

Location: Dallas, Texas
Joined: Apr 19, 2009
Posts: 6640

View Profile
« Reply #33 on: Dec 21, 2017, 12:01PM »

What young woman's heart wouldn't go pitty-pat at the prospect of getting felt-up by this guy...

Logged

Robert Holmén

Hear me as I Play My Horn


Get your Popper, Dotzauer, or Kummer play-alongs!
Greg Waits
*
*
Offline Offline

Location: Rowlett Texas USA
Joined: Apr 18, 2016
Posts: 852

View Profile WWW
« Reply #34 on: Dec 21, 2017, 12:12PM »

And this guy. At least the victims are now being heard and these a** hats can be stopped.

https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2017/12/13/three-schools-sever-ties-with-influential-conductor-musician-amid-abuse-allegations/hpvSvdLvaMwz8TwvKtlt2L/story.html#comments
Logged
MikeBMiller
Best trombone player on my street.
*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: Sep 18, 2009
Posts: 1161

View Profile
« Reply #35 on: Dec 21, 2017, 12:37PM »

All of these stories make me thankful to have been a shy kid who was terrified to even call a girl on the phone. Only up until I was about 25 or so :) So I doubt if anyone can accuse me of anything worse than telling bad jokes.
Logged
sf105
*
Offline Offline

Location: London
Joined: Sep 22, 2011
Posts: 266

View Profile
« Reply #36 on: Dec 23, 2017, 08:22AM »

Not quite the same thing, but we should remember what Munich did to our own Abbie Conant.
Logged
Le.Tromboniste
*
Offline Offline

Location: Basel, Switzerland
Joined: Aug 5, 2008
Posts: 413

View Profile
« Reply #37 on: Dec 23, 2017, 02:21PM »

Damn. I loved his recordings with Montreal.

S

Unfortunately, everyone in Montreal has heard stories (which sound like made up urban legends until the on-the-record reported accusations years later fit precisely the kind of behaviour those rumors were about...). I am very disappointed (although in no way surprised) that the Montreal Symphony is playing the "those specific accusations didn't happen in our backyard, so we'll just look the other way and pretend we don't know anything about it" card. Are there high-ranking executives in world-class organizations who have employed abusive leaders who still don't realize this course of action is no longer available them? Really?
Logged

Maximilien Brisson
robcat2075

*
Offline Offline

Location: Dallas, Texas
Joined: Apr 19, 2009
Posts: 6640

View Profile
« Reply #38 on: Dec 23, 2017, 07:35PM »

Not quite the same thing, but we should remember what Munich did to our own Abbie Conant.

Incidentally, Abbie Conant, famous trombonist, is being sued by Massimo LaRosa, famous trombonist, over... groping allegations.
« Last Edit: Dec 24, 2017, 08:48AM by robcat2075 » Logged

Robert Holmén

Hear me as I Play My Horn


Get your Popper, Dotzauer, or Kummer play-alongs!
Ellrod

*
Offline Offline

Location: North
Joined: Oct 30, 2001
Posts: 6475

View Profile
« Reply #39 on: Dec 23, 2017, 08:16PM »

To be clear, LaRosa is suing Conant in defamation over allegations she made about him.

Will Messrs Levine and DuToit be called as character witnesses for Mr. LaRosa?
Logged
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 5  All   Go Up
Print
Jump to: