Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length

 
Advanced search

1092893 Posts in 72336 Topics- by 19432 Members - Latest Member: joshealejo
Jump to:  
The Trombone ForumCreation and PerformanceMusical Miscellany(Moderators: JP, BGuttman) James Levine, students, festivals
Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5  All   Go Down
Print
Author Topic: James Levine, students, festivals  (Read 3458 times)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
BGuttman
Mad Chemist

*
*
Offline Offline

Location: Londonderry, NH, USA
Joined: Dec 12, 2000
Posts: 51529
"Almost Professional"


View Profile
« Reply #60 on: Dec 24, 2017, 02:19PM »

My problem with what's happening now is that an accusation of sexual misconduct on a man is a scarlet letter that can never be erased.  The mark of Cain.  Even if proven to be untrue.  And you can never be considered to have changed, regardless of how blame-free you are after the incident.  This isn't fair (goes for Roy Moore, too).

Remember, a single accusation could be someone with an ax to grind against the accusee.  I would expect more than one accuser to be an indication that a particular person is a sexual predator.

I should point out that Massimo LaRosa is a member of the Forum.  I believe Abby Conant's close friend is also a member (I don't think she is).
Logged

Bruce Guttman
Solo Trombone, Hollis Town Band
Merrimack Valley Philharmonic Orch. President 2017-2018
bonesmarsh
*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: May 22, 2007
Posts: 2252

View Profile
« Reply #61 on: Dec 24, 2017, 02:38PM »

Chris,

Well then, a Merry Christmas to you, and yours, Ralph Sauer.
Logged
Ellrod

*
Offline Offline

Location: North
Joined: Oct 30, 2001
Posts: 6475

View Profile
« Reply #62 on: Dec 24, 2017, 03:13PM »

“My problem with what's happening now is that an accusation of sexual misconduct on a man is a scarlet letter that can never be erased.”

I don’t know if we’ve come that far yet. Trump is still president after all.

And Bonesmarsh: What the ...? Hittin’ the hard stuff a little early are we?
Logged
robcat2075

*
Offline Offline

Location: Dallas, Texas
Joined: Apr 19, 2009
Posts: 6640

View Profile
« Reply #63 on: Dec 24, 2017, 03:15PM »

One prominent trombone player is suing another prominent trombone player... that is going to get talked about among trombone players.

Here is a primer on online defamation



I predict this will not go to trial. It will get settled for a lesser amount or dropped in exchange for some public recantation.
Logged

Robert Holmén

Hear me as I Play My Horn


Get your Popper, Dotzauer, or Kummer play-alongs!
sonicsilver
*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: Apr 11, 2016
Posts: 517

View Profile
« Reply #64 on: Dec 24, 2017, 03:17PM »

My problem with what's happening now is that an accusation of sexual misconduct on a man is a scarlet letter that can never be erased.  The mark of Cain.  Even if proven to be untrue.  And you can never be considered to have changed, regardless of how blame-free you are after the incident.  This isn't fair (goes for Roy Moore, too).

Remember, a single accusation could be someone with an ax to grind against the accusee.

I totally agree. Most of the recent fingerpointing looks very like professional or political assassination. The accusations leave a bad taint and often can't realistically be challenged or defended against.

It's disappointing that some posters here can't or don't differentiate between Massimo la Rosa having been accused of groping someone, and him actually having done so. The former might be common knowledge (although it was new to me) but the latter is absolutely not established as a matter of factual record.

On a personal note, I took part in several youth orchestras and bands throughout my school and college years. Total number of fellow musicians must be several thousand. Not only did no one ever molest me or try to, but I never even heard any gossip about anything like that happening to anyone. There were, however, plenty of examples of under-skilled female musicians - how should I put it? - climbing the greasy pole. So I call BS on this epidemic of sexual abuse all over the music world. The stories are completely irreconcilable with my extensive personal experience.
Logged
Ellrod

*
Offline Offline

Location: North
Joined: Oct 30, 2001
Posts: 6475

View Profile
« Reply #65 on: Dec 24, 2017, 03:19PM »

My last comment on this: English and American defamation law is quite different. English law protects His Lordship’s reputation. American law protects the rabble rouser’s free speech.

Merry Christmas everyone.
Logged
harrison.t.reed
*
Offline Offline

Location: Colorado
Joined: Apr 5, 2007
Posts: 2836
"Spartan Brass Band!"


View Profile
« Reply #66 on: Dec 24, 2017, 05:23PM »


On a personal note, I took part in several youth orchestras and bands throughout my school and college years. Total number of fellow musicians must be several thousand. Not only did no one ever molest me or try to, but I never even heard any gossip about anything like that happening to anyone. There were, however, plenty of examples of under-skilled female musicians - how should I put it? - climbing the greasy pole. So I call BS on this epidemic of sexual abuse all over the music world. The stories are completely irreconcilable with my extensive personal experience.

This is also a gross comment. Just more he said she said.

I agree with Bruce, and that's the point I was trying to make -- sure, side with the victim, but only so much as to make a fair and just investigation of their case. Don't just assume guilt.
Logged

"My technique is as good as Initial D"
T-396A - Griego 1C
88HTCL - Griego 1C
36H - DE XT105, C+, D Alto Shank
3B/F Silversonic - Griego 1A ss
pBone (with Yellow bell for bright tone)
Le.Tromboniste
*
Offline Offline

Location: Basel, Switzerland
Joined: Aug 5, 2008
Posts: 413

View Profile
« Reply #67 on: Dec 24, 2017, 05:31PM »

Innocent until proven guilty. Is that a thing any longer?
In a criminal trial it stands. The Trombone Forum is not a courtroom.

Exactly. Presumption of innocence is a judicial concept,and it only means the state can't give you a sentence until you've been given a fair trial and you have been proven guilty within that trial.

It applies in no way to public opinion, and doesn't protect you from being fired or asked to resign. An employer is well within its right to fire you long before you've been proven guilty of anything, as they are obligated to protect their company/brand/organization.

The judicial system, in particular with the Anglo-Saxon concept of proof beyond reasonable doubt, has proven highly ineffective at dealing with sexual abuse cases. Most sexual abuses are not committed by a random bad dude at knife point in a dark alley. Most are in grey areas where proving the absence of consent beyond reasonable doubt is extremely difficult. The victims know that, and they know the stigma they might face whether their abuser is found guilty or not, and they know how being "the ***** who ruined beloved star guy X" is not particularly good for their potential careers (especially, mind you, in a highly specialized field that is still very much a boys' club, such as  orchestral brass playing). They know how much energy and time it takes, and they know spending that amount of time or energy reliving their abuse is not necessarily super helpful in their process to move on from what happened to them, quite the contrary. Statistically, there are way, way, way more victims who get abused and don't report and/or whose accusation doesn't lead to charges and/or whose abuser is found not guilty despite having done it than there are false accusations.

So yeah, I choose to believe victims even when I don't know them and have never met them. If anything, because it honors the suffering of those several victims I do know and am friends with (while I don't personally know a single man who got got falsely accused).

And those saying accusations ruin the men's lives and put a permanent taint on their careers... Jeez. You can literally abuse kids for decades and still get within a percentage point of getting elected to the US Senate. Hell, you can claim to frequently commit sexual assault and be elected freaking president. You can get barred from teaching to certain students or at certain universities or schools or have restraining orders against you because of sexual misconduct and still be a principal player or conductor in a major symphony and have a solo career and earn 6 or 7 figure income. Maybe it would be healthy to check our privilege once in a while...
Logged

Maximilien Brisson
growlerbox
Just a clown with an axe

*
Offline Offline

Location: Wellington, New Zealand
Joined: Feb 1, 2012
Posts: 1018

View Profile
« Reply #68 on: Dec 24, 2017, 05:32PM »

The stories are completely irreconcilable with my extensive personal experience.

The stories may not correspond with your experience, but they're hardly irreconcilable with it.
Logged

If it's not worth doing, it's not worth doing well.
robcat2075

*
Offline Offline

Location: Dallas, Texas
Joined: Apr 19, 2009
Posts: 6640

View Profile
« Reply #69 on: Dec 24, 2017, 10:40PM »

On a personal note, I took part in several youth orchestras and bands throughout my school and college years. Total number of fellow musicians must be several thousand. Not only did no one ever molest me or try to, but I never even heard any gossip about anything like that happening to anyone.

Fortunate you!

I can tell you that when I was in college I heard not just gossip but first-hand accounts from female music students of teachers with too many hands. Lots of "posture" and "breathing" checks that the male students and the less-attractive female students didn't seem to need.

Another classmate of mine was very excited to get accepted to a graduate-level conducting program but after a few more contacts with the teacher he suspected there would be more than conducting he had to do for this degree and gave it up.

Some institutions do a great job of making sure that these situations don't happen.  Others just presume that talented artists are always responsible adults. Clearly a mistake.
Logged

Robert Holmén

Hear me as I Play My Horn


Get your Popper, Dotzauer, or Kummer play-alongs!
sonicsilver
*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: Apr 11, 2016
Posts: 517

View Profile
« Reply #70 on: Dec 25, 2017, 03:17AM »

The stories may not correspond with your experience, but they're hardly irreconcilable with it.

Yes, irreconcilable. If it's true that sexual misbehaviour is so common in the music world, then I would expect to have seen some representation of that in my experience, which contains an ample sample size of musicians. Of course it's possible that all the musicians and teachers I've crossed paths with had no such incidents, but extremely unlikely given the claimed prevalence.

Still on a personal note, why hasn't anyone ever groped me? Am I repulsive? Oh, the trauma to my self-esteem from never having been the object of anyone's ill-considered lust! But seriously, there seems to be fewer women and male homosexuals among brass players compared to woodwinds and strings. Perhaps that's why. Or maybe it's something in my demeanour. I have absolutely nothing against anyone expressing sexual interest in me, however gauchely: it's a natural part of life and I'm free to accept or reject.

Were someone to make a genuine casting couch offer to me, again I'd be free to accept or reject. If the James Levine stories are true, yeah maybe I'd miss out on understudying for him - big deal. If I had a burning ambition to be an accomplished conductor, a sulking, horny James Levine would be a very minor obstacle. I'd make it my business to succeed with or without his help. But that self confidence comes from having put the work in to achieve a certain standard. I can understand how a younger, student musician might feel boxed into a corner, having not yet learned that musical accomplishment isn't within the gift of a patron, however powerful: it comes from you.

To end on a positive, that's why I remember very fondly the tutors I had who were encouraging and constructive and helped me to improve, not for any particular gain to themselves but because they gave a damn about me as a student and gave a damn about music.
Logged
Le.Tromboniste
*
Offline Offline

Location: Basel, Switzerland
Joined: Aug 5, 2008
Posts: 413

View Profile
« Reply #71 on: Dec 25, 2017, 04:23AM »

Yes, irreconcilable. If it's true that sexual misbehaviour is so common in the music world

Not so much in the music world specifically as in the world in general I would say. The music world is not an exception, one way or the other.
Logged

Maximilien Brisson
MrPillow
Organologique et plus!

*
Offline Offline

Location: Newport, RI
Joined: Jan 14, 2008
Posts: 1598

View Profile
« Reply #72 on: Dec 25, 2017, 10:35AM »

But seriously, there seems to be fewer women and male homosexuals among brass players compared to woodwinds and strings. Perhaps that's why. Or maybe it's something in my demeanour.

If only those women and gays had just been straight men, all these problems would go away!
Logged

King 3B/F Silversonic - King 608F - Holton Paul Whiteman Model
William Lang
*
Offline Offline

Location: New York City
Joined: Jul 31, 2006
Posts: 157

View Profile
« Reply #73 on: Dec 25, 2017, 11:51AM »

attitudes like yours hurt people.

Yes, irreconcilable. If it's true that sexual misbehaviour is so common in the music world, then I would expect to have seen some representation of that in my experience, which contains an ample sample size of musicians. Of course it's possible that all the musicians and teachers I've crossed paths with had no such incidents, but extremely unlikely given the claimed prevalence.

Still on a personal note, why hasn't anyone ever groped me? Am I repulsive? Oh, the trauma to my self-esteem from never having been the object of anyone's ill-considered lust! But seriously, there seems to be fewer women and male homosexuals among brass players compared to woodwinds and strings. Perhaps that's why. Or maybe it's something in my demeanour. I have absolutely nothing against anyone expressing sexual interest in me, however gauchely: it's a natural part of life and I'm free to accept or reject.

Were someone to make a genuine casting couch offer to me, again I'd be free to accept or reject. If the James Levine stories are true, yeah maybe I'd miss out on understudying for him - big deal. If I had a burning ambition to be an accomplished conductor, a sulking, horny James Levine would be a very minor obstacle. I'd make it my business to succeed with or without his help. But that self confidence comes from having put the work in to achieve a certain standard. I can understand how a younger, student musician might feel boxed into a corner, having not yet learned that musical accomplishment isn't within the gift of a patron, however powerful: it comes from you.

To end on a positive, that's why I remember very fondly the tutors I had who were encouraging and constructive and helped me to improve, not for any particular gain to themselves but because they gave a damn about me as a student and gave a damn about music.
Logged
sonicsilver
*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: Apr 11, 2016
Posts: 517

View Profile
« Reply #74 on: Dec 25, 2017, 12:26PM »

attitudes like yours hurt people.

How's that, snowflake? Malevolent telekinesis?
Logged
sonicsilver
*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: Apr 11, 2016
Posts: 517

View Profile
« Reply #75 on: Dec 25, 2017, 12:28PM »

If only those women and gays had just been straight men, all these problems would go away!

You've not seen Some Like It Hot then?
Logged
growlerbox
Just a clown with an axe

*
Offline Offline

Location: Wellington, New Zealand
Joined: Feb 1, 2012
Posts: 1018

View Profile
« Reply #76 on: Dec 25, 2017, 01:54PM »

Yes, irreconcilable. If it's true that sexual misbehaviour is so common in the music world, then I would expect to have seen some representation of that in my experience, which contains an ample sample size of musicians. Of course it's possible that all the musicians and teachers I've crossed paths with had no such incidents, but extremely unlikely given the claimed prevalence.

Still on a personal note, why hasn't anyone ever groped me? Am I repulsive? Oh, the trauma to my self-esteem from never having been the object of anyone's ill-considered lust! But seriously, there seems to be fewer women and male homosexuals among brass players compared to woodwinds and strings. Perhaps that's why. Or maybe it's something in my demeanour. I have absolutely nothing against anyone expressing sexual interest in me, however gauchely: it's a natural part of life and I'm free to accept or reject.

Were someone to make a genuine casting couch offer to me, again I'd be free to accept or reject. If the James Levine stories are true, yeah maybe I'd miss out on understudying for him - big deal. If I had a burning ambition to be an accomplished conductor, a sulking, horny James Levine would be a very minor obstacle. I'd make it my business to succeed with or without his help. But that self confidence comes from having put the work in to achieve a certain standard. I can understand how a younger, student musician might feel boxed into a corner, having not yet learned that musical accomplishment isn't within the gift of a patron, however powerful: it comes from you.

To end on a positive, that's why I remember very fondly the tutors I had who were encouraging and constructive and helped me to improve, not for any particular gain to themselves but because they gave a damn about me as a student and gave a damn about music.

OK, so experiences that don't comport precisely with yours don't exist?  Now who's the snowflake?

I agree overall with the importance, perhaps the primacy, of personal responsibility, but achieving this is a process which these kids are often just beginning to undertake.  While they can perhaps be faulted for naivete and even delicacy resulting from a who-knows-what cocktail of overprotective parenting/schooling and predisposition, the kind of predatory behaviour on the part of conductors and mentors being reported here cannot legitimately be described as the mere expression of sexual interest, even assuming that such expressions could be considered appropriate under certain circumstances (and this is by no means a given).

Perhaps it is indeed your demeanour that protected you from both the advances of your tutors and the confidences of your less self-assured peers, and perhaps you feel it also somehow excuses you for sliding from a healthy skepticism into paltry cynicism.
Logged

If it's not worth doing, it's not worth doing well.
William Lang
*
Offline Offline

Location: New York City
Joined: Jul 31, 2006
Posts: 157

View Profile
« Reply #77 on: Dec 25, 2017, 02:00PM »

you come across as lacking empathy, and being very dissmissive of people who have been hurt. sexism and harrasment are real, and invalidating those feelings and truths is wrong. it's a worse world when we are encouraged to be "tough guys" and bury feelings.


How's that, snowflake? Malevolent telekinesis?
Logged
BGuttman
Mad Chemist

*
*
Offline Offline

Location: Londonderry, NH, USA
Joined: Dec 12, 2000
Posts: 51529
"Almost Professional"


View Profile
« Reply #78 on: Dec 25, 2017, 02:12PM »

You've not seen Some Like It Hot then?

Maybe you don't quite understand.  All girl bands were formed because men generally refused to give them significant positions.  The humor of the film is that two guys hiding out from the Mafia dress as women and join the band.  They aren't being predatory -- they are trying to hide.  It would be foolhardy for them to expose themselves as men.

The predatory behavior of men in power towards women (or men if they are homosexual) is something you really don't want to condone or encourage.  And it's been happening for a LONG time.
Logged

Bruce Guttman
Solo Trombone, Hollis Town Band
Merrimack Valley Philharmonic Orch. President 2017-2018
Greg Waits
*
*
Offline Offline

Location: Rowlett Texas USA
Joined: Apr 18, 2016
Posts: 852

View Profile WWW
« Reply #79 on: Dec 25, 2017, 05:38PM »

Earlier on in this post I shared my story of tales I heard about a private teacher of mine in jr high school and high school.

I stated that he never was inappropriate with me. So yes, I too could state that the stories I heard about this teacher are "completely irreconcilable with my extensive personal experience", but it doesn't make them any less true.

So I wouldn't even begin to dismiss the experiences of other students (the ones who were assaulted or propositioned).
Logged
Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5  All   Go Up
Print
Jump to: