Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length

 
Advanced search

1092465 Posts in 72163 Topics- by 19436 Members - Latest Member: Pablo3A
Jump to:  
The Trombone ForumPractice BreakChit-ChatPurely Politics(Moderators: bhcordova, RedHotMama, BFW) Should Trump be investigated for sexual assault/harrassment?
Pages: 1 2 3 4 [All]   Go Down
Print
Author Topic: Should Trump be investigated for sexual assault/harrassment?  (Read 1815 times)
0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.
Ellrod

*
Offline Offline

Location: North
Joined: Oct 30, 2001
Posts: 6475

View Profile
« on: Dec 12, 2017, 11:46AM »

Should Trump be investigated in response to the evidence of the 16 women who have come forward?

It strikes me that in a society where no one is above the law and where criminal prosecutions are conducted by impartial investigators and prosecutors, and where in special cases, by special investigators and prosecutors selected for their impartiality, he should be.

Of course, that might not describe the US anymore.

But 16 women allege conduct ranging from inappropriate to assault. Surely, justice for all includes these complainants?
Logged
BGuttman
Mad Chemist

*
*
Offline Offline

Location: Londonderry, NH, USA
Joined: Dec 12, 2000
Posts: 51533
"Almost Professional"


View Profile
« Reply #1 on: Dec 12, 2017, 12:00PM »

I think this is getting out of hand.  I think Moore is an idiot, but his sexual perversions have little to do with his competence to serve as a Senator. 

People caught doing this need a strong slap on the wrist, but making them pariahs is a little excessive.  After all, the number of Presidents who chased skirts is rather long and begins with George Washington.
Logged

Bruce Guttman
Solo Trombone, Hollis Town Band
Merrimack Valley Philharmonic Orch. President 2017-2018
BillO
A trombone is not measured by it's name.

*
Offline Offline

Location: Ontario Canada
Joined: Jun 24, 2015
Posts: 3423

View Profile
« Reply #2 on: Dec 12, 2017, 12:07PM »

Some private or consensual perversion is A-OK to me. Good!  What consenting adults do when they are together or alone is none of my concern.  However, harassment and especially assault are criminal behavior.  I think assault was even a crime back in GW's day although sexual assault may not have been a recognized thing.  Don't know  In this day and age though, we have recognized them as crimes that damage the victims.  If he is guilty of it he should face charges, trial and punishment.  There have been allegations - it should be investigated.
Logged

Never look at the conductor. You just encourage them.

Have you noticed, some folk never stick around to help tidy up after practice?
MrPillow
Organologique et plus!

*
Offline Offline

Location: Newport, RI
Joined: Jan 14, 2008
Posts: 1598

View Profile
« Reply #3 on: Dec 12, 2017, 12:15PM »

I think this is getting out of hand.  I think Moore is an idiot, but his sexual perversions have little to do with his competence to serve as a Senator. 

People caught doing this need a strong slap on the wrist, but making them pariahs is a little excessive.  After all, the number of Presidents who chased skirts is rather long and begins with George Washington.

So it's ok to be a sexual predator as long as it doesn't interfere with your job?
Logged

King 3B/F Silversonic - King 608F - Holton Paul Whiteman Model
BGuttman
Mad Chemist

*
*
Offline Offline

Location: Londonderry, NH, USA
Joined: Dec 12, 2000
Posts: 51533
"Almost Professional"


View Profile
« Reply #4 on: Dec 12, 2017, 12:25PM »

So it's ok to be a sexual predator as long as it doesn't interfere with your job?

I think he deserves a visit with an Ethics Committee of some sort, just as Al Franken did (but didn't get).  If it can be clearly proven that he was a sexual predator he should be punished for his crime.

Criminal activity is punishable, even if you are President of the United States.

We're getting a little odd here.  The Boston NPR station (and its main sponsor, Boston University) suspended a host who had a rather belligerent style for bullying.  You can't hold the hand of every snowflake.
Logged

Bruce Guttman
Solo Trombone, Hollis Town Band
Merrimack Valley Philharmonic Orch. President 2017-2018
Ellrod

*
Offline Offline

Location: North
Joined: Oct 30, 2001
Posts: 6475

View Profile
« Reply #5 on: Dec 12, 2017, 12:48PM »

I'm of the mind that if every man who behaved stupidly in the presence of a woman is going to be accused of sexual harassment (which is a pretty broad and almost meaningless phrase it seems to me), a lot - and by a lot, I mean nearly all - of us men are in trouble.

But, some of the complaints, namely those involving sexual touching - appear - and by appear, I mean clearly amount to - some level of criminal sexual assault. And where this appears to be a pattern of behavior over a lengthy period of time, involving a number of victims, well, isn't there some sort of registry for this sort of person?

Bullying might simply be a different but also wrongful act. No need to equate the two.
Logged
ddickerson

*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: Feb 21, 2009
Posts: 9815

View Profile
« Reply #6 on: Dec 12, 2017, 03:00PM »

So it's ok to be a sexual predator as long as it doesn't interfere with your job?

Asking a lady for her phone number makes someone a predator?

This is typical 'campaign allegations', except the ladies that made allegations about Trump have slumped back into the woodwork, because once it was clear that their dirty politics weren't going to work, what use were they?

Now, they think there is a new opportunity. Geez louieeeez, I can't believe people even give these allegations the time of day.

This new found high moral ground by the democrats is a joke. Let's move on to something more important.

democrats need a reality check.

Logged

Energy City Horizons Symphonic Band
Energy City Big Band
Energy City Dixieland Band
River Pointe Church Praise and Worship Band
ddickerson

*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: Feb 21, 2009
Posts: 9815

View Profile
« Reply #7 on: Dec 12, 2017, 03:02PM »

I'm of the mind that if every man who behaved stupidly in the presence of a woman is going to be accused of sexual harassment (which is a pretty broad and almost meaningless phrase it seems to me), a lot - and by a lot, I mean nearly all - of us men are in trouble.

But, some of the complaints, namely those involving sexual touching - appear - and by appear, I mean clearly amount to - some level of criminal sexual assault. And where this appears to be a pattern of behavior over a lengthy period of time, involving a number of victims, well, isn't there some sort of registry for this sort of person?

Bullying might simply be a different but also wrongful act. No need to equate the two.

Registry for those convicted.
Logged

Energy City Horizons Symphonic Band
Energy City Big Band
Energy City Dixieland Band
River Pointe Church Praise and Worship Band
BGuttman
Mad Chemist

*
*
Offline Offline

Location: Londonderry, NH, USA
Joined: Dec 12, 2000
Posts: 51533
"Almost Professional"


View Profile
« Reply #8 on: Dec 12, 2017, 03:32PM »

Registry for those convicted.

But not convicted by the Press or random political pronouncements.
Logged

Bruce Guttman
Solo Trombone, Hollis Town Band
Merrimack Valley Philharmonic Orch. President 2017-2018
Zandit75
*
Offline Offline

Location: Penguin, Tasmania, Australia
Joined: Sep 13, 2017
Posts: 82

View Profile
« Reply #9 on: Dec 12, 2017, 04:35PM »

The slipperiest slope that we see in front of us now, is that it seems very easy to accuse someone of sexual misconduct, and yet the accused is presumed guilty without any chance to defend themselves.
If proven false, there can be irreparable damage to the reputation of the accused, and can also lead them to a higher risk of attempting suicide.
One instance I can think of is Johnny Depp. He was accused by his Ex Wife Amber Heard about physical violence, and even without any charges laid etc, JD was at risk of losing roles in movies, such as the Harry Potter spin off films, Fantastic Beasts.
People, and especially the Press are too quick to point fingers and lay blame, but not apologise where false accusations have been made.
I'm not saying that JD is innocent, it may have happened, and I certainly believe that is wrong to assault anyone, let alone your female partner, but not all of the facts are on the table, so it needs to be addressed properly.
Logged
badger

*
Offline Offline

Location: Permian Basin
Joined: Sep 27, 2010
Posts: 1298

View Profile
« Reply #10 on: Dec 12, 2017, 04:49PM »

Bruce,

Least we forget Mike Pence:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2017/03/30/mike-pence-doesnt-dine-alone-with-other-women-and-were-all-shocked/?utm_term=.16e0b41fac56

In today’s environment one cannot be too cautious I guess.  Don't know

Logged
bhcordova
Wielder of the Cat Litter Scoop

*
*
Offline Offline

Location: Nacogdoches, TX, USA
Joined: May 18, 2000
Posts: 7172
"Carpe Felix"


View Profile WWW
« Reply #11 on: Dec 12, 2017, 05:16PM »

Asking a lady for her phone number makes someone a predator?

This is typical 'campaign allegations', except the ladies that made allegations about Trump have slumped back into the woodwork, because once it was clear that their dirty politics weren't going to work, what use were they?

Now, they think there is a new opportunity. Geez louieeeez, I can't believe people even give these allegations the time of day.

This new found high moral ground by the democrats is a joke. Let's move on to something more important.

democrats need a reality check.



Just goes to prove, once again, that the Repblicans are the party of the (Im)Moral (Min)Majority
Logged

Billy Cordova, MBA
Forum Administrator
bcordova@tromboneforum.org

Beware the Jabberwock, my son! - Lewis Carroll

Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup - Anon.

St. Cecilia, pray for us.
robcat2075

*
Online Online

Location: Dallas, Texas
Joined: Apr 19, 2009
Posts: 6647

View Profile
« Reply #12 on: Dec 12, 2017, 05:18PM »

Quote
"Asking a lady for her phone number makes someone a predator?"

First...Why is an adult man asking a 14-year-old girl, who he does not know, for her phone number? What would be the good reasons for that?

Second... here's Moore's reason...

Quote
Alone with Corfman, Moore chatted with her and asked for her phone number, she says. Days later, she says, he picked her up around the corner from her house in Gadsden, drove her about 30 minutes to his home in the woods, told her how pretty she was and kissed her. On a second visit, she says, he took off her shirt and pants and removed his clothes. He touched her over her bra and underpants, she says, and guided her hand to touch him over his underwear.

“I wanted it over with — I wanted out,” she remembers thinking. “Please just get this over with. Whatever this is, just get it over.” Corfman says she asked Moore to take her home, and he did.

Yes, the 14-year-old did agree to see him. When she did that, do we think she understood what she was getting into like a woman of Moore's age would?

Logged

Robert Holmén

Hear me as I Play My Horn


Get your Popper, Dotzauer, or Kummer play-alongs!
Ellrod

*
Offline Offline

Location: North
Joined: Oct 30, 2001
Posts: 6475

View Profile
« Reply #13 on: Dec 12, 2017, 05:50PM »

Asking a lady for her phone number makes someone a predator?

This is typical 'campaign allegations', except the ladies that made allegations about Trump have slumped back into the woodwork, because once it was clear that their dirty politics weren't going to work, what use were they?

Now, they think there is a new opportunity. Geez louieeeez, I can't believe people even give these allegations the time of day.

This new found high moral ground by the democrats is a joke. Let's move on to something more important.

democrats need a reality check.



All of the allegations against Trump involve more than asking a woman for her phone number.
Logged
Nanook

*
Offline Offline

Location: Pittsburgh,Pa
Joined: Dec 10, 2014
Posts: 182

View Profile
« Reply #14 on: Dec 13, 2017, 07:15AM »

I think he deserves a visit with an Ethics Committee of some sort, just as Al Franken did (but didn't get).  If it can be clearly proven that he was a sexual predator he should be punished for his crime.

Criminal activity is punishable, even if you are President of the United States.

We're getting a little odd here.  The Boston NPR station (and its main sponsor, Boston University) suspended a host who had a rather belligerent style for bullying.  You can't hold the hand of every snowflake.

To begin with, Politicians conducting an ethics committee is pretty funny...In Trumps case, these allegations were known to voters prior to the election, in which he was elected to office anyway...So ethically I don't see a case, now morally that is another issue...The other issue that is disturbing is that many of the accusers are anonymous, tough to defend yourself against a ghost...
Nanook

<Edit: Fixed Quote>
« Last Edit: Dec 13, 2017, 07:32AM by BGuttman » Logged

“Without deviation from the norm, progress is not possible.”-Frank Zappa
Ellrod

*
Offline Offline

Location: North
Joined: Oct 30, 2001
Posts: 6475

View Profile
« Reply #15 on: Dec 13, 2017, 08:22AM »

Not anonymous.

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2017/12/what-happened-to-trumps-16-sexual-misconduct-accusers.html
Logged
ddickerson

*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: Feb 21, 2009
Posts: 9815

View Profile
« Reply #16 on: Dec 13, 2017, 08:26AM »

Well, trotting out sexual allegations works when you can't win on policy.  Evil
Logged

Energy City Horizons Symphonic Band
Energy City Big Band
Energy City Dixieland Band
River Pointe Church Praise and Worship Band
Ellrod

*
Offline Offline

Location: North
Joined: Oct 30, 2001
Posts: 6475

View Profile
« Reply #17 on: Dec 13, 2017, 10:38AM »

Well, trotting out sexual allegations works when you can't win on policy.  Evil

Or when you've been sexually assaulted.
Logged
Piano man
*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: Feb 10, 2006
Posts: 10036

View Profile
« Reply #18 on: Dec 13, 2017, 11:52AM »

I think we can base the reliability of Trump's accusers on the fact that he himself has admitted the behaviors he's accused of.

His accusers describe him as suddenly kissing them on the lips, and he says he does that.
His accusers describe him as spontaneously groping them sexually, and he says he does that.
His accusers describe him as aggressively pursuing women who aren't interested, including married women, and he says he does that.
His accusers describe him as barging into the dressing room at his pageant, and he says he does that.

His defense isn't that he doesn't indulge in these behaviors--he admits that--but that these aren't the women he did it to. "She wouldn't be my first choice"--his words--isn't much of a defense.

His defenders are stuck with the following: "She says Trump sexually assaults women, and Trump says he sexually assaults women. They're both lying."
Logged

"What gets us into trouble is not what we don't know, it's what we know for sure that just ain't so." --Mark Twain
ddickerson

*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: Feb 21, 2009
Posts: 9815

View Profile
« Reply #19 on: Dec 13, 2017, 11:53AM »

Or when you've been sexually assaulted.

Of course. But, in Moore's case, it took them 30 years to determine that they were assaulted. LOL!
Logged

Energy City Horizons Symphonic Band
Energy City Big Band
Energy City Dixieland Band
River Pointe Church Praise and Worship Band
Piano man
*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: Feb 10, 2006
Posts: 10036

View Profile
« Reply #20 on: Dec 13, 2017, 11:56AM »

Of course. But, in Moore's case, it took them 30 years to determine that they were assaulted. LOL!

LOL, indeed. I'm picturing you laughing out loud at a 14-year-old girl being forced to touch a man's erection, and it perfectly fits my image of you.

Have you considered the perspective of the girl who was assaulted? She probably blamed herself. She didn't tell people because she was frightened, ashamed and embarrassed.

Laugh it up.
Logged

"What gets us into trouble is not what we don't know, it's what we know for sure that just ain't so." --Mark Twain
ddickerson

*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: Feb 21, 2009
Posts: 9815

View Profile
« Reply #21 on: Dec 13, 2017, 12:21PM »

LOL, indeed. I'm picturing you laughing out loud at a 14-year-old girl being forced to touch a man's erection, and it perfectly fits my image of you.

Have you considered the perspective of the girl who was assaulted? She probably blamed herself. She didn't tell people because she was frightened, ashamed and embarrassed.

Laugh it up.

Can you provide proof that this happened?

Logged

Energy City Horizons Symphonic Band
Energy City Big Band
Energy City Dixieland Band
River Pointe Church Praise and Worship Band
BGuttman
Mad Chemist

*
*
Offline Offline

Location: Londonderry, NH, USA
Joined: Dec 12, 2000
Posts: 51533
"Almost Professional"


View Profile
« Reply #22 on: Dec 13, 2017, 12:53PM »

Can you provide proof that this happened?



It's the usual problem with these cases.  It's her word versus his.  Who do you prefer to believe?

We have several similar stories from different people about the same act.

One could be a fluke.  What about several?
Logged

Bruce Guttman
Solo Trombone, Hollis Town Band
Merrimack Valley Philharmonic Orch. President 2017-2018
ddickerson

*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: Feb 21, 2009
Posts: 9815

View Profile
« Reply #23 on: Dec 13, 2017, 12:59PM »

It's the usual problem with these cases.  It's her word versus his.  Who do you prefer to believe?


Exactly! That's why we shouldn't paint people with false motives for having different opinions on who to believe, when it is impossible to prove one way or the other. There are good reasons not to believe these kind of 'campaign allegations'.

Same thing happened to Herman Cain when he ran as a presidential candidate. I notice that Herman is not in jail. Why is that?
Logged

Energy City Horizons Symphonic Band
Energy City Big Band
Energy City Dixieland Band
River Pointe Church Praise and Worship Band
Ellrod

*
Offline Offline

Location: North
Joined: Oct 30, 2001
Posts: 6475

View Profile
« Reply #24 on: Dec 13, 2017, 01:16PM »

It's the usual problem with these cases.  It's her word versus his.  Who do you prefer to believe?

We have several similar stories from different people about the same act.

One could be a fluke.  What about several?


It's more than that. The are a number of complainants all of whom have similar stories about a pattern of conduct, especially when combined with Trump's comments (voluntary, against interest) on the bus with Billy. How much of this might be admissible as similar fact I'll leave to practicing criminal lawyers. 

Nice "what about?" Dusty. Forget about the president grabbing some woman by the *****, what about ...?
Logged
Greg Waits
*
*
Offline Offline

Location: Rowlett Texas USA
Joined: Apr 18, 2016
Posts: 856

View Profile WWW
« Reply #25 on: Dec 13, 2017, 02:00PM »

Innocent until proven guilty is applicable only to Republicans according to DD
Logged
Piano man
*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: Feb 10, 2006
Posts: 10036

View Profile
« Reply #26 on: Dec 13, 2017, 02:38PM »

Can you provide proof that this happened?



No, sir, but I'm not laughing out loud, either. It's a very reasonable possibility and even likelihood that this girl was victimized in this fashion. This isn't a remote outcome--even in Alabama, more voters believed than disbelieved the allegations. The likelihood that this girl suffered in this manner would keep me, but not you, from 'laughing out loud' at the situation. To each his own. I think that's disgusting.

Secondly, it's plain that you place politics above the victims in these cases. There are many cases similar to this, where the defender denies that the incident occurred, or claims that it's consensual. If this weren't purely political to you, you'd be able to show posts where you raised the same issue on behalf of a liberal or a Democrat. In the absence of that, it's plain that you're using this for political manipulation and are largely indifferent to what happens to girls and women in these situations.

By all means, keep laughing. After all, you weren't the one who was molested.
Logged

"What gets us into trouble is not what we don't know, it's what we know for sure that just ain't so." --Mark Twain
ddickerson

*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: Feb 21, 2009
Posts: 9815

View Profile
« Reply #27 on: Dec 13, 2017, 02:47PM »

No, sir, but I'm not laughing out loud, either.

You don't even know what I was laughing about! Geez!

And you obviously can't even comprehend the points that I make, and so you start claiming things that you think I mean. How dumb is that?
Logged

Energy City Horizons Symphonic Band
Energy City Big Band
Energy City Dixieland Band
River Pointe Church Praise and Worship Band
Piano man
*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: Feb 10, 2006
Posts: 10036

View Profile
« Reply #28 on: Dec 13, 2017, 02:47PM »

Same thing happened to Herman Cain when he ran as a presidential candidate. I notice that Herman is not in jail. Why is that?

The difference is in burden of proof.

The burden of proof to put someone 'in jail' is appropriately very high.

The burden of proof in a civil case is much lower--basically 50% plus.

The burden of proof to vote against someone is just the bad smell coming off of them. In the case of Roy Moore, it's the multiple, similar allegations against him; his admission that he first noticed his future wife at a dance recital when she was fifteen; his admission that when he was in his thirties he asked his dates' parents for permission; the multiple people who knew him at the time who say it's an open secret that he hankered for much younger women; and his lying about knowing the women, which is substantially proved false.

If he did nothing wrong, why would he lie?
Logged

"What gets us into trouble is not what we don't know, it's what we know for sure that just ain't so." --Mark Twain
ddickerson

*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: Feb 21, 2009
Posts: 9815

View Profile
« Reply #29 on: Dec 13, 2017, 02:51PM »

The difference is in burden of proof.

The burden of proof to put someone 'in jail' is appropriately very high.

The burden of proof in a civil case is much lower--basically 50% plus.

The burden of proof to vote against someone is just the bad smell coming off of them. In the case of Roy Moore, it's the multiple, similar allegations against him; his admission that he first noticed his future wife at a dance recital when she was fifteen; his admission that when he was in his thirties he asked his dates' parents for permission; the multiple people who knew him at the time who say it's an open secret that he hankered for much younger women; and his lying about knowing the women, which is substantially proved false.

If he did nothing wrong, why would he lie?

It proves that the allegations against Herman were just 'campaign allegations'. That's what democrats stoop to when they don't have a winning policy.
Logged

Energy City Horizons Symphonic Band
Energy City Big Band
Energy City Dixieland Band
River Pointe Church Praise and Worship Band
Piano man
*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: Feb 10, 2006
Posts: 10036

View Profile
« Reply #30 on: Dec 13, 2017, 02:52PM »

You don't even know what I was laughing about! Geez!

Sure, it's a load of laughs, as rape cases always are. You just can't suppress a chuckle.

You still haven't shown that you've ever raised the issue of accuser reliability except to support conservatives and Republicans, which makes it fake on your part.
Logged

"What gets us into trouble is not what we don't know, it's what we know for sure that just ain't so." --Mark Twain
Piano man
*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: Feb 10, 2006
Posts: 10036

View Profile
« Reply #31 on: Dec 13, 2017, 02:57PM »

It proves that the allegations against Herman were just 'campaign allegations'. That's what democrats stoop to when they don't have a winning policy.

It doesn't prove that at all. It proves that the allegations didn't rise to a level that would support a prosecution. That doesn't make them untrue or poorly motivated. Besides, the undeniable allegation in this case was that Cain was utterly unqualified to be president. He was front-runner for about five minutes, then started talking and ruined it.

In the case of Moore, the accounts were multiple, consistent (both with one another and with his reputation), and corroborated both by contemporaneous written record and by Moore's own recent statements. This was sufficient to get even Alabamans to give him the boot.

In the case of Trump, we have his own accounts that corroborate the victims' stories.
Logged

"What gets us into trouble is not what we don't know, it's what we know for sure that just ain't so." --Mark Twain
ddickerson

*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: Feb 21, 2009
Posts: 9815

View Profile
« Reply #32 on: Dec 13, 2017, 04:06PM »

Sure, it's a load of laughs, as rape cases always are. You just can't suppress a chuckle.

You still haven't shown that you've ever raised the issue of accuser reliability except to support conservatives and Republicans, which makes it fake on your part.


I don't have to show you anything. LOL!
Logged

Energy City Horizons Symphonic Band
Energy City Big Band
Energy City Dixieland Band
River Pointe Church Praise and Worship Band
Piano man
*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: Feb 10, 2006
Posts: 10036

View Profile
« Reply #33 on: Dec 13, 2017, 04:13PM »

I don't have to show you anything. LOL!

It's not that you don't have to, it's that you can't. Your entire concern over these rape and abuse allegations has been in service of your politics, which shows that you don't care about the victims. If you could show otherwise, you would.
Logged

"What gets us into trouble is not what we don't know, it's what we know for sure that just ain't so." --Mark Twain
Piano man
*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: Feb 10, 2006
Posts: 10036

View Profile
« Reply #34 on: Dec 13, 2017, 04:29PM »

Back on topic, if a normal criminal defendant made statements, either in public or private, that corroborated witness testimony, that would lend credence to the testimony of the witness or victim. In other words, Trump gave details on his sexual assaults on women that precisely match the allegations. That not only passes as a sort of confession, but shows a knowledge of details that only the perpetrator would have.

In order to defend Trump, or pass off the accusations as 'political', you have to conclude that the alleged victims and Trump himself are all lying. I don't see how you get around that.
Logged

"What gets us into trouble is not what we don't know, it's what we know for sure that just ain't so." --Mark Twain
Baron von Bone
Fear is the Mind-Killer.

*
Offline Offline

Location: Athens, GA (USA)
Joined: Jul 16, 2002
Posts: 18661
"Reality Junkie"


View Profile
« Reply #35 on: Dec 13, 2017, 07:04PM »

Back on topic, if a normal criminal defendant made statements, either in public or private, that corroborated witness testimony, that would lend credence to the testimony of the witness or victim. In other words, Trump gave details on his sexual assaults on women that precisely match the allegations. That not only passes as a sort of confession, but shows a knowledge of details that only the perpetrator would have.
 
In order to defend Trump, or pass off the accusations as 'political', you have to conclude that the alleged victims and Trump himself are all lying. I don't see how you get around that.

Easy ... just takes a fundamentally dishonest and self-absorbed mindset.
Logged

- Feeding a troll just gives it a platform and amplifies its voice.
 
- Science is what we have learned about how to keep from fooling ourselves.  - Richard Feynman
- He who knows not and knows not that he knows not is a fool.   - Confucius
BillO
A trombone is not measured by it's name.

*
Offline Offline

Location: Ontario Canada
Joined: Jun 24, 2015
Posts: 3423

View Profile
« Reply #36 on: Dec 13, 2017, 07:56PM »

It proves that the allegations against Herman were just 'campaign allegations'. That's what democrats stoop to when they don't have a winning policy.
Yeah, it's not like the Repulicans brought any 'campaign allegations' against Clinton.

You are so full of s hit your eyes are turning brown.

Dusty, is it impossible for you to argue a point with some integrity?
Logged

Never look at the conductor. You just encourage them.

Have you noticed, some folk never stick around to help tidy up after practice?
ddickerson

*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: Feb 21, 2009
Posts: 9815

View Profile
« Reply #37 on: Dec 13, 2017, 08:18PM »

Yeah, it's not like the Repulicans brought any 'campaign allegations' against Clinton.

You are so full of s hit your eyes are turning brown.

Dusty, is it impossible for you to argue a point with some integrity?


I think that it's impossible for you people to listen to other view points. 
Logged

Energy City Horizons Symphonic Band
Energy City Big Band
Energy City Dixieland Band
River Pointe Church Praise and Worship Band
BGuttman
Mad Chemist

*
*
Offline Offline

Location: Londonderry, NH, USA
Joined: Dec 12, 2000
Posts: 51533
"Almost Professional"


View Profile
« Reply #38 on: Dec 13, 2017, 08:22PM »

I think that it's impossible for you people to listen to other view points. 

Your viewpoints are quite transparent.  You are the only one who really knows anything and the rest of us are idiots who are getting in your way :-P

My problem is that I listen to everybody's viewpoints and then make up my mind.  I'm not closed, and I don't automatically agree with you.
Logged

Bruce Guttman
Solo Trombone, Hollis Town Band
Merrimack Valley Philharmonic Orch. President 2017-2018
robcat2075

*
Online Online

Location: Dallas, Texas
Joined: Apr 19, 2009
Posts: 6647

View Profile
« Reply #39 on: Dec 13, 2017, 09:18PM »

"Accused many times but not actually convicted of felony sexual assault" is an appropriate standard for deciding not to send someone to prison but it's a poor standard for high office.
Logged

Robert Holmén

Hear me as I Play My Horn


Get your Popper, Dotzauer, or Kummer play-alongs!
Piano man
*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: Feb 10, 2006
Posts: 10036

View Profile
« Reply #40 on: Dec 13, 2017, 09:20PM »

I think that it's impossible for you people to listen to other view points. 

There's no 'you people'. There's just people with common sense, then you.

If you have a friend who is accused by a whole lot of people of doing something, then he says, Yeah, I do that, the normal response is to believe that it happened. That's precisely the situation with Trump.

Trump has admitted to the behavior described by his accusers. What more do you need?

Not too difficult to figure out, at least for smart people or, as you call them, 'you people'.
Logged

"What gets us into trouble is not what we don't know, it's what we know for sure that just ain't so." --Mark Twain
Baron von Bone
Fear is the Mind-Killer.

*
Offline Offline

Location: Athens, GA (USA)
Joined: Jul 16, 2002
Posts: 18661
"Reality Junkie"


View Profile
« Reply #41 on: Dec 13, 2017, 09:50PM »

Not too difficult to figure out, at least for smart people or, as you call them, 'you people'.

Smart?
 
How about not completely vacuous?
 
At least marginally rational?
 
Maybe those who have at least a slight inkling of honesty?
Logged

- Feeding a troll just gives it a platform and amplifies its voice.
 
- Science is what we have learned about how to keep from fooling ourselves.  - Richard Feynman
- He who knows not and knows not that he knows not is a fool.   - Confucius
ddickerson

*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: Feb 21, 2009
Posts: 9815

View Profile
« Reply #42 on: Dec 14, 2017, 05:18AM »

Your viewpoints are quite transparent.  You are the only one who really knows anything and the rest of us are idiots who are getting in your way :-P

My problem is that I listen to everybody's viewpoints and then make up my mind.  I'm not closed, and I don't automatically agree with you.

Notice I don't call you out and call you stupid names either. I don't get upset with you for having different opinions than me, do I?
We still are cordial and get along. Not so, with how other members react to my opinions. That's the difference.

Logged

Energy City Horizons Symphonic Band
Energy City Big Band
Energy City Dixieland Band
River Pointe Church Praise and Worship Band
ddickerson

*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: Feb 21, 2009
Posts: 9815

View Profile
« Reply #43 on: Dec 14, 2017, 05:27AM »

There's no 'you people'. There's just people with common sense, then you.

If you have a friend who is accused by a whole lot of people of doing something, then he says, Yeah, I do that, the normal response is to believe that it happened. That's precisely the situation with Trump.

Trump has admitted to the behavior described by his accusers. What more do you need?

Not too difficult to figure out, at least for smart people or, as you call them, 'you people'.

I'll say this one more time.

'Campaign allegations' are trotted out when a party has no policy they can win by and become desparate. Therefore, they are treated as such and given zero credit.

The democrat party has a history of doing this. They are now in the same campaign style mode against Trump because without false allegations, they have nothing. The Russia collusion fantasy has failed, so now, it's back to 'campaign allegations', all in the hopes of finding something that will stick. Good luck with that. The people have spoken and Trump is president.

2020 is right around the corner. Maybe the democrats can find legitimate issues and a good candidate.
Logged

Energy City Horizons Symphonic Band
Energy City Big Band
Energy City Dixieland Band
River Pointe Church Praise and Worship Band
BillO
A trombone is not measured by it's name.

*
Offline Offline

Location: Ontario Canada
Joined: Jun 24, 2015
Posts: 3423

View Profile
« Reply #44 on: Dec 14, 2017, 05:50AM »

I think that it's impossible for you people to listen to other view points. 
I read what you wrote and thought about it.  You call the Democrats out for dragging up 'campaign allegations' and assert it in a way that tries to convince us that you think they are alone in doing that.  Well, you were wrong.  100% wrong, because the republicans do exactly the same thing.  Then when I point that out to you you claim it is impossible for 'us guys' to listen to other view points.  Which again is 100% wrong as I proved in responding to you in the first place.

If your 'view point' is that the Republicans do no muckraking, then you are being intellectually dishonest - and we all know it.  If you want to be taken seriously, use a little common sense when you post and use some integrity.
Logged

Never look at the conductor. You just encourage them.

Have you noticed, some folk never stick around to help tidy up after practice?
B0B
*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: Jun 27, 2008
Posts: 5766

View Profile
« Reply #45 on: Dec 14, 2017, 06:30AM »

I'll say this one more time.

'Campaign allegations' are trotted out when a party has no policy they can win by and become desparate. Therefore, they are treated as such and given zero credit.

The democrat party has a history of doing this. They are now in the same campaign style mode against Trump because without false allegations, they have nothing. The Russia collusion fantasy has failed (Not according to the guilty please, or even trump junior's own admittal of attempted collusion), so now, it's back to 'campaign allegations'(So you mean the sexual alligations? The ones trump bragged about doing?), all in the hopes of finding something that will stick. Good luck with that. The people have spoken and Trump is president. (actually no, the electoral college spoke. The people said Clinton.)

2020 is right around the corner. Maybe the democrats can find legitimate issues and a good candidate.

Three words for you: "Benghazi", "Birther", and "Emails".

What you describe is pretty Republican SOP for the past 6-8 years. You just seem to confuse party.
Logged
bhcordova
Wielder of the Cat Litter Scoop

*
*
Offline Offline

Location: Nacogdoches, TX, USA
Joined: May 18, 2000
Posts: 7172
"Carpe Felix"


View Profile WWW
« Reply #46 on: Dec 14, 2017, 08:56AM »

B0B, more like the past 20 years.  Or have you forgotten "Willie Horton", the swiftboaters, etc.?
Logged

Billy Cordova, MBA
Forum Administrator
bcordova@tromboneforum.org

Beware the Jabberwock, my son! - Lewis Carroll

Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup - Anon.

St. Cecilia, pray for us.
Russ White

*
Offline Offline

Location: Orange City, Fl
Joined: Feb 27, 2007
Posts: 5246

View Profile
« Reply #47 on: Dec 14, 2017, 09:49AM »


The Russia collusion fantasy has failed


Two indictments on 14 counts, including "Conspiracy Against the USA", and two guilty pleas to lesser charges tell the lie of that statement.
Logged

Better than yesterday, better yet tomorrow.
Ellrod

*
Offline Offline

Location: North
Joined: Oct 30, 2001
Posts: 6475

View Profile
« Reply #48 on: Dec 14, 2017, 10:17AM »

That Russia ran (and, I expect, still runs) a very successful influence campaign for Trump's benefit during the 2016 election campaign is irrefutable, although DD and Putin continue to deny it.

Vlad and Dusty - it writes itself.
Logged
Piano man
*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: Feb 10, 2006
Posts: 10036

View Profile
« Reply #49 on: Dec 14, 2017, 10:56AM »

DDickerson, it isn't that I'm closed off to your opinions, but you mostly argue from assertion, and rather than present evidence you simply assert facts that are contrary to it. Then, you largely ignore the points made by others and throw out more unfounded assertions.

Are some sexual allegations made in service of political gain? Probably, but not the ones against Trump. We have Trump's own corroboration of this type of behavior, in his own words, on more than one occasion.

You still can't explain how these allegations could all be false when Trump admits to the acts they're describing. This one's 100%, easy-peasy. He did it. He says so, they say so. Done deal.

So why do you argue, against plain fact and evidence, that this has something to do with lack of a Democrat legislative program? Because it's what you want to believe, and you've never particularly cared if what you say is true.

Same with your characterization that the Russian probe has come a cropper. It hasn't. Again, they've substantially admitted collusion. DJT Jr. eagerly agreed to a meeting--"I love it"--after receiving an email plainly stating that it reflected the Kremlin's desire to help Trump. If they weren't at least trying to collude, why would he agree to the meeting?  This didn't come from some shady Democrat operative or the hated MSM--DJT Jr. provided the information himself. Again, done deal.

So if you want respect from the people on this forum (and admittedly you probably don't care) you could present some actual cogent arguments for your positions, or cite evidence for them, rather than just parrot a bunch of Mewsmax talking points we've all heard a million times and which are easily debunked.

Meanwhile, the smart people ("you people", to you) on the forum will keep trying to flick you away.
Logged

"What gets us into trouble is not what we don't know, it's what we know for sure that just ain't so." --Mark Twain
BillO
A trombone is not measured by it's name.

*
Offline Offline

Location: Ontario Canada
Joined: Jun 24, 2015
Posts: 3423

View Profile
« Reply #50 on: Dec 14, 2017, 11:41AM »

Facts?  Don't know
Logged

Never look at the conductor. You just encourage them.

Have you noticed, some folk never stick around to help tidy up after practice?
Greg Waits
*
*
Offline Offline

Location: Rowlett Texas USA
Joined: Apr 18, 2016
Posts: 856

View Profile WWW
« Reply #51 on: Dec 14, 2017, 11:43AM »

....The people have spoken....

Look around. Wake up and smell the coffee DD. There are a lot of people speaking now. There are widespread calls for Trump to resign or be impeached. And it is becoming more and more common with each week it seems.

The ones who are still defending him, and his entire smarmy administration are quickly finding themselves in the minority, election result notwithstanding. Republicans are jumping ship right and left.

You are standing on the deck of a sinking ship. History will not be kind to Trump and his apologists and enablers.
Logged
bhcordova
Wielder of the Cat Litter Scoop

*
*
Offline Offline

Location: Nacogdoches, TX, USA
Joined: May 18, 2000
Posts: 7172
"Carpe Felix"


View Profile WWW
« Reply #52 on: Dec 14, 2017, 02:31PM »

Facts?  Don't know

Facts?  We don't need no stinking facts!
Logged

Billy Cordova, MBA
Forum Administrator
bcordova@tromboneforum.org

Beware the Jabberwock, my son! - Lewis Carroll

Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup - Anon.

St. Cecilia, pray for us.
Piano man
*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: Feb 10, 2006
Posts: 10036

View Profile
« Reply #53 on: Dec 14, 2017, 03:11PM »

Painting these accusations as a political stunt is ridiculous. Only 31 percent of Americans recently polled disbelieved Trump's sexual assault accusers, and now you're just getting down to the dumbest of the dumb, who are disbelieving something that Trump already admitted doing.

A large majority (57%) believe Trump obstructed the Russia probe. Americans believe, 50% to 40%, that Trump colluded with Russia to get elected.

I was going to say that sooner or later you have to take your head out of the sand (or wherever it is) but, strictly speaking, that's not true. You don't have to.
Logged

"What gets us into trouble is not what we don't know, it's what we know for sure that just ain't so." --Mark Twain
Piano man
*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: Feb 10, 2006
Posts: 10036

View Profile
« Reply #54 on: Dec 14, 2017, 08:34PM »

The people have spoken and Trump is president.


The people have spoken and Doug Jones is Senator.
Logged

"What gets us into trouble is not what we don't know, it's what we know for sure that just ain't so." --Mark Twain
Greg Waits
*
*
Offline Offline

Location: Rowlett Texas USA
Joined: Apr 18, 2016
Posts: 856

View Profile WWW
« Reply #55 on: Dec 14, 2017, 09:36PM »


The people have spoken and Doug Jones is Senator.

 Good!
Logged
ddickerson

*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: Feb 21, 2009
Posts: 9815

View Profile
« Reply #56 on: Dec 15, 2017, 03:06PM »

Regarding the sex accusers of trump in the campaign, seem to have been recruited by Lisa Bloom, Gloria alred’s Daughter, and received huge compensation. Some, in the millions.

That’s what I call ‘campaign allegations’.

So, the Russian fantasy has failed. And now, they’re trying to restart the campaign allegations again, but now we find out they were paid.

Now the MSM is probably not reporting this yet, so you guys have been given a heads up.
Logged

Energy City Horizons Symphonic Band
Energy City Big Band
Energy City Dixieland Band
River Pointe Church Praise and Worship Band
Baron von Bone
Fear is the Mind-Killer.

*
Offline Offline

Location: Athens, GA (USA)
Joined: Jul 16, 2002
Posts: 18661
"Reality Junkie"


View Profile
« Reply #57 on: Dec 15, 2017, 04:15PM »

Sometimes--often of late--it seems there really should be a point at which willfully stupid becomes criminal.
 
We've seen more than enough of the harm willful stupidity can do. When enough people are sufficiently depraved and proud of it, they can do a lot of damage to the society they infect with intellectual and moral depravity, and the hatred of those who aren't similarly depraved.
Logged

- Feeding a troll just gives it a platform and amplifies its voice.
 
- Science is what we have learned about how to keep from fooling ourselves.  - Richard Feynman
- He who knows not and knows not that he knows not is a fool.   - Confucius
elmsandr

*
Offline Offline

Location: Howell, MI
Joined: Apr 12, 2004
Posts: 3366

View Profile
« Reply #58 on: Dec 15, 2017, 06:54PM »

Regarding the sex accusers of trump in the campaign, seem to have been recruited by Lisa Bloom, Gloria alred’s Daughter, and received huge compensation. Some, in the millions.

That’s what I call ‘campaign allegations’.

So, the Russian fantasy has failed. And now, they’re trying to restart the campaign allegations again, but now we find out they were paid.

Now the MSM is probably not reporting this yet, so you guys have been given a heads up.
The Russian “fantasy” failed? How so? Indictments and guilty pleas in pretty much record time from an independent counsel... it hasn’t failed, it is rolling in a rather unpleasant direction.

Cheers,
Andy
Logged

Andrew Elms
Piano man
*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: Feb 10, 2006
Posts: 10036

View Profile
« Reply #59 on: Dec 15, 2017, 06:58PM »

I expect the Mueller probe to be ended soon, with the help of Fox News and the acquiescence of the hated 'establishment Republicans.'

It will be a sad day for democracy. At least when Nixon was president, his party-mates chose country over party.
Logged

"What gets us into trouble is not what we don't know, it's what we know for sure that just ain't so." --Mark Twain
bhcordova
Wielder of the Cat Litter Scoop

*
*
Offline Offline

Location: Nacogdoches, TX, USA
Joined: May 18, 2000
Posts: 7172
"Carpe Felix"


View Profile WWW
« Reply #60 on: Dec 15, 2017, 07:06PM »

Yeah, but those Republicans damaged the party so badly that the Goldwater lunatic fringe was able to take over the party.
Logged

Billy Cordova, MBA
Forum Administrator
bcordova@tromboneforum.org

Beware the Jabberwock, my son! - Lewis Carroll

Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup - Anon.

St. Cecilia, pray for us.
Piano man
*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: Feb 10, 2006
Posts: 10036

View Profile
« Reply #61 on: Dec 15, 2017, 10:11PM »

The Russian “fantasy” failed? How so? Indictments and guilty pleas in pretty much record time from an independent counsel... it hasn’t failed, it is rolling in a rather unpleasant direction.

Cheers,
Andy

That's the talking point. The Russian probe has landed a few fish and they're getting too close to the Prez. The widely respected Mueller is now being set up to be removed. You'll notice that none of the beefs against him amounts to anything, but it's an excuse. The president cannot have his funding, or his campaign support, examined.

The Russians won.
Logged

"What gets us into trouble is not what we don't know, it's what we know for sure that just ain't so." --Mark Twain
Russ White

*
Offline Offline

Location: Orange City, Fl
Joined: Feb 27, 2007
Posts: 5246

View Profile
« Reply #62 on: Dec 16, 2017, 05:21AM »


 At least when Nixon was president, his party-mates chose country over party.


Um, you might want to go back and do a little reading on that.They did not put country over party until after the "Saturday Night Massacre" and the drafting of impeachment charges by the Dem. majority in the House.
Logged

Better than yesterday, better yet tomorrow.
Russ White

*
Offline Offline

Location: Orange City, Fl
Joined: Feb 27, 2007
Posts: 5246

View Profile
« Reply #63 on: Dec 16, 2017, 05:22AM »

Yeah, but those Republicans damaged the party so badly that the Goldwater lunatic fringe was able to take over the party.

Well, that, and Clinton syphoning off a portion of that group when he sold out the blue collar and union classes by giving the Democrat Party to Wall St.
Logged

Better than yesterday, better yet tomorrow.
Piano man
*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: Feb 10, 2006
Posts: 10036

View Profile
« Reply #64 on: Dec 16, 2017, 10:52AM »

Um, you might want to go back and do a little reading on that.They did not put country over party until after the "Saturday Night Massacre" and the drafting of impeachment charges by the Dem. majority in the House.

I'm familiar with the history, but elements in Congress, and in the media, are helping Trump fire Mueller now. The drumbeat of spurious accusations against Mueller tells me it's going to happen soon.
Logged

"What gets us into trouble is not what we don't know, it's what we know for sure that just ain't so." --Mark Twain
Russ White

*
Offline Offline

Location: Orange City, Fl
Joined: Feb 27, 2007
Posts: 5246

View Profile
« Reply #65 on: Dec 16, 2017, 11:02AM »

I'm familiar with the history, but elements in Congress, and in the media, are helping Trump fire Mueller now. The drumbeat of spurious accusations against Mueller tells me it's going to happen soon.


Sadly, I suspect you are right. And now Corker and rubio have both caved on the tax bill. There is not a single testicle in the entire Republican Senate caucus.
Logged

Better than yesterday, better yet tomorrow.
Piano man
*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: Feb 10, 2006
Posts: 10036

View Profile
« Reply #66 on: Dec 18, 2017, 12:03PM »

Sadly, I suspect you are right. And now Corker and rubio have both caved on the tax bill. There is not a single testicle in the entire Republican Senate caucus.

It's the Brownbacking of America. Maybe the Dems should use that term.
Logged

"What gets us into trouble is not what we don't know, it's what we know for sure that just ain't so." --Mark Twain
Pages: 1 2 3 4 [All]   Go Up
Print
Jump to: