Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length

 
Advanced search

1092751 Posts in 72323 Topics- by 19429 Members - Latest Member: 17williarw
Jump to:  
The Trombone ForumHorns, Gear, and EquipmentMouthpieces(Moderators: BGuttman, Doug Elliott) How to tell if a mouthpiece is solid silver?
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4  All   Go Down
Print
Author Topic: How to tell if a mouthpiece is solid silver?  (Read 2583 times)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Doug Elliott
Lord of the Rims

*
*
Offline Offline

Location: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: Mar 12, 2005
Posts: 6791

View Profile
« Reply #40 on: Dec 15, 2017, 06:29AM »

If you could buy solid silver in bar form such as you need to make a mouthpiece (you can't), the material for one mouthpiece would cost at least $700.  Of course there would be quite a bit of waste from that but you can't really count that as much value.  All of the processes involved in minimizing waste by casting, etc, adds labor plus other materials and equipment which offsets any potential savings.

It's easy to look at the weight of a mouthpiece and calculate the price per ounce but that's only a tiny part of the cost of producing it.

If there was a market for $1000 mouthpieces I'd be doing it.
Logged

www.DougElliottMouthpieces.com
XT LexanN104,C+,D2, Williams 6, K&H Slokar alto, K&H Slokar Solo .547 open wrap
BGuttman
Mad Chemist

*
*
Offline Offline

Location: Londonderry, NH, USA
Joined: Dec 12, 2000
Posts: 51526
"Almost Professional"


View Profile
« Reply #41 on: Dec 15, 2017, 06:38AM »

...

If there was a market for $1000 mouthpieces I'd be doing it.

I'd bet Dave Monette would be there first Evil
Logged

Bruce Guttman
Solo Trombone, Hollis Town Band
Merrimack Valley Philharmonic Orch. President 2017-2018
bbocaner

*
Offline Offline

Location: Herndon, VA
Joined: Nov 25, 2004
Posts: 945

View Profile
« Reply #42 on: Dec 15, 2017, 06:39AM »

Sterling silver or coin silver is always supposed to have a mark on it identifying it as such. It could be just really thick plating.
Logged

--
Barry
harrison.t.reed
*
Offline Offline

Location: Colorado
Joined: Apr 5, 2007
Posts: 2833
"Spartan Brass Band!"


View Profile
« Reply #43 on: Dec 15, 2017, 07:05AM »

Sterling silver or coin silver is always supposed to have a mark on it identifying it as such. It could be just really thick plating.

I don't think this is always the case. You won't see an ugly stamped on a nice piece of jewelry, especially if it's small.
Logged

"My technique is as good as Initial D"
T-396A - Griego 1C
88HTCL - Griego 1C
36H - DE XT105, C+, D Alto Shank
3B/F Silversonic - Griego 1A ss
pBone (with Yellow bell for bright tone)
BillO
A trombone is not measured by it's name.

*
Offline Offline

Location: Ontario Canada
Joined: Jun 24, 2015
Posts: 3423

View Profile
« Reply #44 on: Dec 15, 2017, 07:30AM »

Method to determine density of a mouthpiece.

Weight the mouthpiece to the nearest gram. (M)

Get a standard 500ml graduated cylinder.  Fill with 250ml of water (L1).  Carefully place the mouthpiece into the graduated cylinder and record the new level (L2).

Determine the volume of the MP in ml (V = L2-L1).  You will likely only be within +/- 2.5ml, but this will be close enough.

Determine the density of the MP (D = M/V)

If D is between 10.2 and 10.5 your mouthpiece is likely of some form of silver.

If D is between 8.3 and 8.9 your mouthpiece is likely of brass.
Logged

Never look at the conductor. You just encourage them.

Have you noticed, some folk never stick around to help tidy up after practice?
Bruce the budgie

*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: Oct 1, 2013
Posts: 287
"A burp is not a grace note."


View Profile
« Reply #45 on: Dec 15, 2017, 07:37AM »

I don't think this is always the case. You won't see an ugly stamped on a nice piece of jewelry, especially if it's small.

I am used to seeing 925 stamped on fairly small findings. At one flea market I met a fellow selling built-up silver beads and trinkets from south Asia, none of them stamped. I had no reason to doubt the percentages he claimed, based on his own testing. Most of his stuff seemed to be in the low to mid 90s as far as percentage of silver went.
Logged
RMTrombone
*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: Dec 4, 2013
Posts: 90

View Profile
« Reply #46 on: Dec 15, 2017, 07:38AM »

Traditionally all silver jewelry and tableware are marked with the silversmith's hallmark. Often "Sterling Silver" or ".925 Fine" ,"925" will be on the back or other hidden place. This is a statement of authenticity.

Silver plate usually lacks any such mark.

If I was making a solid sterling silver mouthpiece for TD I would certainly sign my work, even if it was a prototype. 
Logged
patrickosmith

*
Offline Offline

Location: Boston
Joined: Feb 7, 2014
Posts: 1002

View Profile
« Reply #47 on: Dec 15, 2017, 08:11AM »

Traditionally all silver jewelry and tableware are marked with the silversmith's hallmark. Often "Sterling Silver" or ".925 Fine" ,"925" will be on the back or other hidden place. This is a statement of authenticity.

Silver plate usually lacks any such mark.

If I was making a solid sterling silver mouthpiece for TD I would certainly sign my work, even if it was a prototype. 

I don't think that in 1955, or thereabouts, Mr. Reynold Schilke would have concerned himself with marking this particular mouthpiece with "925," "Sterling silver" or anything the like.

Other that the marking "SCHILKE" there isn't anything on it (not even a size). It appears to be somewhere between a 51D and a 51C.
Logged
patrickosmith

*
Offline Offline

Location: Boston
Joined: Feb 7, 2014
Posts: 1002

View Profile
« Reply #48 on: Dec 15, 2017, 08:17AM »

Method to determine density of a mouthpiece.

Weight the mouthpiece to the nearest gram. (M)

Get a standard 500ml graduated cylinder.  Fill with 250ml of water (L1).  Carefully place the mouthpiece into the graduated cylinder and record the new level (L2).

Determine the volume of the MP in ml (V = L2-L1).  You will likely only be within +/- 2.5ml, but this will be close enough.

Determine the density of the MP (D = M/V)

If D is between 10.2 and 10.5 your mouthpiece is likely of some form of silver.

If D is between 8.3 and 8.9 your mouthpiece is likely of brass.

Thanks. I might check into this at my workplace where the required equipment might be available.
Logged
timothy42b
*
Offline Offline

Location: Colonial Heights, Virginia, US
Joined: Dec 7, 2000
Posts: 12456

View Profile
« Reply #49 on: Dec 15, 2017, 08:36AM »

Method to determine density of a mouthpiece.

Weight the mouthpiece to the nearest gram. (M)

Get a standard 500ml graduated cylinder.  Fill with 250ml of water (L1).  Carefully place the mouthpiece into the graduated cylinder and record the new level (L2).

Determine the volume of the MP in ml (V = L2-L1).  You will likely only be within +/- 2.5ml, but this will be close enough.

Determine the density of the MP (D = M/V)

If D is between 10.2 and 10.5 your mouthpiece is likely of some form of silver.

If D is between 8.3 and 8.9 your mouthpiece is likely of brass.

Then again if it floats, you've also ruled out silver.

And brass.

Logged

Tim Richardson
hyperbolica
*
Offline Offline

Location: Eastern US
Joined: Oct 19, 2014
Posts: 1509

View Profile
« Reply #50 on: Dec 15, 2017, 08:48AM »

Then again if it floats, you've also ruled out silver.

And brass.



So its made of wood. And therefor a duck. Or a witch.
Logged
harrison.t.reed
*
Offline Offline

Location: Colorado
Joined: Apr 5, 2007
Posts: 2833
"Spartan Brass Band!"


View Profile
« Reply #51 on: Dec 15, 2017, 08:54AM »

No. It's only if the mouthpiece weighs the same as a duck. Then it's made of wood. No water required. It's all about condensity, man.
Logged

"My technique is as good as Initial D"
T-396A - Griego 1C
88HTCL - Griego 1C
36H - DE XT105, C+, D Alto Shank
3B/F Silversonic - Griego 1A ss
pBone (with Yellow bell for bright tone)
BillO
A trombone is not measured by it's name.

*
Offline Offline

Location: Ontario Canada
Joined: Jun 24, 2015
Posts: 3423

View Profile
« Reply #52 on: Dec 15, 2017, 09:04AM »

If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks, it's a mouthpiece.
Logged

Never look at the conductor. You just encourage them.

Have you noticed, some folk never stick around to help tidy up after practice?
BGuttman
Mad Chemist

*
*
Offline Offline

Location: Londonderry, NH, USA
Joined: Dec 12, 2000
Posts: 51526
"Almost Professional"


View Profile
« Reply #53 on: Dec 15, 2017, 09:07AM »

If it quacks, it's probably a mouthpiece for a saxophone or bassoon. :-P
Logged

Bruce Guttman
Solo Trombone, Hollis Town Band
Merrimack Valley Philharmonic Orch. President 2017-2018
bbocaner

*
Offline Offline

Location: Herndon, VA
Joined: Nov 25, 2004
Posts: 945

View Profile
« Reply #54 on: Dec 15, 2017, 09:39AM »

I don't think that in 1955, or thereabouts, Mr. Reynold Schilke would have concerned himself with marking this particular mouthpiece with "925," "Sterling silver" or anything the like.

Other that the marking "SCHILKE" there isn't anything on it (not even a size). It appears to be somewhere between a 51D and a 51C.

Even in starting with the latter half of the 19th century, american sterling pieces are always marked as such. He would have had the stamps -- why wouldn't he have stamped at least STR or something like that on it? Apply Occam's Razor.
Logged

--
Barry
Dean Hubbard

*
Offline Offline

Location: Oakland, CA, USA
Joined: Feb 2, 2003
Posts: 81

View Profile
« Reply #55 on: Dec 15, 2017, 11:38AM »

Friends,
I have two Al Almont mouthpieces.
One is clearly marked with the Sterling
Silver stamp, one is not.
I've tried many copies of Almont mouthpieces
that weren't made from SS. Unfortunately they don't
really measure up. 
The other thing I've noticed is that some manufactures of the
clones often "tweek" the mouthpiece in an misguided attempt to
improve it.  They don't need improving in my opinion.

Truly,
Dean Hubbard.
Artist Clinician for Getzen Trombones.
Logged

Dean Hubbard
Artist/Clinician for Getzen Trombones
The Sheriff
*
Offline Offline

Location: Chicago
Joined: Sep 10, 2006
Posts: 892

View Profile
« Reply #56 on: Dec 15, 2017, 02:02PM »

Friends,
I have two Al Almont mouthpieces.
One is clearly marked with the Sterling
Silver stamp, one is not.
I've tried many copies of Almont mouthpieces
that weren't made from SS. Unfortunately they don't
really measure up. 
The other thing I've noticed is that some manufactures of the
clones often "tweek" the mouthpiece in an misguided attempt to
improve it.  They don't need improving in my opinion.

Truly,
Dean Hubbard.
Artist Clinician for Getzen Trombones.

========

Good information. Are yours both in the 12C range?

The one I am in possession of has no markings of any kind. I had local mouthpiece maker Karl Hammond take a look at it and he said, "I'm surprised it plays as well as it does". I asked why and he said, "the backbore is a real mess". It definitely plays. It's a very good mouthpiece, better than most, in fact.

-----------
Logged

Scott Bentall-Freelance
No pressure=No sound=No gigs
---------------------------------------------
Lawler .500 bore
Kanstul 1606 (prototype)
Williams 6 (Bob)
1935 Williams "L" Arrowhead
Conn 71H
The Sheriff
*
Offline Offline

Location: Chicago
Joined: Sep 10, 2006
Posts: 892

View Profile
« Reply #57 on: Dec 15, 2017, 02:07PM »

I'd bet Dave Monette would be there first Evil
=====

Good one!!

-------
Logged

Scott Bentall-Freelance
No pressure=No sound=No gigs
---------------------------------------------
Lawler .500 bore
Kanstul 1606 (prototype)
Williams 6 (Bob)
1935 Williams "L" Arrowhead
Conn 71H
The Sheriff
*
Offline Offline

Location: Chicago
Joined: Sep 10, 2006
Posts: 892

View Profile
« Reply #58 on: Dec 15, 2017, 02:08PM »

Yes I understood Giardinelli bought Almont's tooling when he retired......  Also that TD would send his brass players to Almont's to have mouthpieces made.....
-----

And John Stork worked at Giardinelli.

====
Logged

Scott Bentall-Freelance
No pressure=No sound=No gigs
---------------------------------------------
Lawler .500 bore
Kanstul 1606 (prototype)
Williams 6 (Bob)
1935 Williams "L" Arrowhead
Conn 71H
Wasatch Oz

*
Offline Offline

Location: Wasatch Front, Utah
Joined: Aug 23, 2017
Posts: 46

View Profile
« Reply #59 on: Dec 15, 2017, 03:37PM »

Just for curiosity, I had to do some rough calculation on a solid silver MP. To tell if you have one, a solid silver should weigh about 1.2x as much as brass...

Assume a 5.6 oz brass trombone mouthpiece. That = 1.15 cubic inches of material. (Brass = 4.86 ounces per CI.)

1.15 cubic inches of silver = 6.36 troy ounces.
A solid silver mouthpiece would have ~$120 melt value.

1.15 cubic inches of gold = 11.68 ounces (that's a HEAVY mouthpiece!).
<~$15,000 in raw material.
Logged
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4  All   Go Up
Print
Jump to: