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Author Topic: Beginner and newbie question.  (Read 1253 times)
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Christophe
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« on: Dec 19, 2017, 01:39PM »

Hi everyone,
As I am new here and don't really know where to start, I hope I'm not being clumsy and my questions are not too dumb.
I've realise that I would like to learn trombone and even though I'm no musician, it is not by doing nothing that I will solve anything.
I wish I would like to learn another instrument, meaning an instrument which is cheaper to buy but well...I just love trombone.
Anyway, from what I've been gathering it seems that the Yamaha YSL345 or King 606 are good, correct me if I'm wrong.
I haven't really understand the difference between mouthpiece yet but that is probably me.
I'm looking at small ads but how can you know that an instrument is good. In europe prices are quite silly and often very close to the brand new instrument, I have a friend in canada at the moment but my budget is quite limited.
Therefore, yamaha, king, other (I would prefer to avoid plastic trombone)
I'm sure that this question has been ask a 1000time but I find the internet a bit confusing and being a father of 2 my time on the internet is rather limited so hence the post and the question for a quicker (more selfish?!) answer.
Thanks
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BGuttman
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« Reply #1 on: Dec 19, 2017, 02:09PM »

There are a number of decent student model trombones out there:  Bach TB-300, Blessing 128, Conn Director, Holton TR-600, King 606 or 605 (Cleveland), Olds Ambassador, Yamaha 354 or 352.  There are others.

What mouthpiece? One that fits the instrument.  Many of us start with the equivalent of a Bach 12C or Bach 6.5AL.  The 6.5AL is larger than the 12C, but for a rank beginner either will do.

If you are buying a used instrument you should have somebody who knows how to play test it out for you.  He will be looking for leaks, bad solder joints, and misalignment of the slide.  Even new instruments can have problems.

If you buy from a music store, make sure they can do repairs if you need any (hopefully not, but just in case).

Also, see if you can find somebody to give you a few lessons in the beginning.  It will help get you going much quicker.  Still, if you are planning to play in a Carneval band next February, I wouldn't expect you will be ready (although most likely by Carneval 2019).

Good luck.
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Bruce Guttman
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« Reply #2 on: Dec 19, 2017, 06:41PM »

What mouthpiece? One that fits the instrument.  Many of us start with the equivalent of a Bach 12C or Bach 6.5AL.  The 6.5AL is larger than the 12C, but for a rank beginner either will do.

I'm not sure if Bruce means a mouthpiece with a character that suits the instrument, or a mouthpiece that literally fits into the mouthpiece receiver.
If he means a mouthpiece that suits the instrument, I wouldn't worry about that right now--just get a 12C or a 6 1/2AL.
If he means a mouthpiece that literally fits into the receiver... for any student horn, make sure that 12C or 6 1/2AL is a SMALL SHANK mouthpiece.1,2

1 "Large shank" mouthpieces are made for larger trombones. If you get a large-shank mouthpiece, it won't fit in your student trombone.
2 Large-shank 12Cs are rare, but large-shank 6 1/2ALs are pretty common.

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« Reply #3 on: Dec 19, 2017, 09:14PM »

My favorites of the student branded trombones mentioned are the Olds Ambassador ( LA era mostly, mine is from the mid 40ís as I recall  ) and any Yamaha M1 ( I have a new one that is really nice to play and the ones with the flared braces, 352 I think, are great ).

But thatís just my opinion based on having two examples still in my collection.

Feel free to let us know what you find locally and we can give our opinions on what we think would suit a beginner best and hold up over time.

As far as an instrument being good at first glance on an ad... hard to tell unless you can gauge whether or not the seller is being honest and the pictures show the condition well. If there are no dents or scratches chances are that itís mechanically fine.
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« Reply #4 on: Dec 19, 2017, 11:35PM »

Please avoid plastic trombone if you really want to learn the instrument. Also avoid Chinese-made or Indian-made horns, no matter how cheap they are (except for some brands like Wessex, but generally please avoid them). Online purchase should also be avoided if you don't know the seller well or have no chance to see/test-blown the instrument first, or in your case, have someone who plays trombone test it for you first.

For the mouthpiece, I personally recommend the 6.5AL (or 6 1/2 AL, equivalent to Yamaha 48), because it is the size roughly in the middle of the range. But 12C is also fine.
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« Reply #5 on: Dec 20, 2017, 12:12AM »

Have you got yourself a trombone teacher?   If not this would be the best investment you can make!
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« Reply #6 on: Dec 20, 2017, 04:45AM »

Have you got yourself a trombone teacher?   If not this would be the best investment you can make!

 Good! Good! Good!

-Andy in OKC
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« Reply #7 on: Dec 20, 2017, 05:25AM »

Trombone: Yamaha 354. Yamaha do make student horns with pro quality, that's one thing they are famous for.
Mouthpiece: My choice Bach 6 3/4C which is a bit larger than an 11C.

A Bach 12C mentioned earlier, is often what comes with a new student horn. It is a good mouthpiece for young students because it has a shallow cup and does not suck a lot of air. It also has a small rim. The size is perfect to fit young students with small mouths :) The professionals today who use a Bach 12C rarely uses it for classical playing because it does not give an easy low register. For jazz or Big Band lead playing it works better because the high notes are clear and easy. Most professionals find the 12C out of place for their needs and go a tad bigger and use a Bach 11C-ish mouthpiece or they go even larger. If you are an adult then you could skip the 12C because you have a larger mouth and bigger lungs than a child. A Bach 6 1/2 AL small shank is a mouthpiece that can be used to cover the whole register and fits both jazz and classical playing. It has a wider rim and is deeper. The backside is it sucks a little more air. What you gain is a fuller sound in the whole register (with practice). Even though the rim is wider than a 12C the high register is not per sec more difficult. It depends on the player. The deeper cup and larger back bore gives a fuller low register compared to the 12C. The 6 1/2 AL is well regarded and is used by both professionals and students.

/Tom
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« Reply #8 on: Dec 20, 2017, 11:50AM »

Hi,

BGuttman, thanks for your insight on different horns, I'll have a look at those I did not know about.
Concerning the few lessons, well, Trombone is not soothing I want to learn since last week, but I moved to Portugal and there is a carnival band in town (even though it is a very small town) and they could do (in the futur, 2019 being probably not futuristic enough ;-) )with more trombone player that's why I thought seriously about giving it a go as I will not be alone with a horn (if I do find one that fit the budget)

LowrBrass, thanks I'll make sure to be careful about the shank

Full Pedal Trombonist, I'll check those one also. My main trouble at the moment is to find something local, so far..nothing, that is also why I'm looking on ebay, but you can only rely on what the seller wants to tell you...

sirisobhakya, thanks, I will avoid plastic for obvious environmental reason as well as not wanting to be fighting with learning topped with a shi..y instrument

vegasbound & afugate, see above, my reason to think about getting a horn is mainly because I know I will not be on my own to start with. ;-)

watermailonman, thanks, being 6"9' (2M05) and french, I do have a large mouth (excuse the joke, I could not resist), so I'll definitely try to start with a 6 Ĺ AL

One last question for now, what are you thinking is a minimum budget? Is 250-300Ä (300-350$) a complete utopia?
Once again many thanks for all the answers and advices

Christophe
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BGuttman
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« Reply #9 on: Dec 20, 2017, 12:05PM »

You are certainly not small (btw, the correct way is 6'9" - 203 cm?).

You can get a nice instrument in the US for 300 Euro, but I don't know what the general tariff is in Portugal.  You might want to check with Thomann and see if they have anything used.  Also, contact the carnival band and see if they can loan you a trombone to learn on.  And see if any of our European members are selling anything in the Classifieds.

Note: DJ Kennedy, who is based in the US, ships to Europe.  You might want to send him an e-mail or personal message.  He might have something that can fill the bill.
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Bruce Guttman
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Christophe
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« Reply #10 on: Dec 20, 2017, 12:41PM »

Hi Bruce,

Not small...yeap that would qualify ;-)
I have a friend who is in canada at the moment and could bring me a trombone but there is too many online offer without anything sure about quality...Europe is quite expensive at least what I saw on ebay or other 2nd hand website.
The carnival has horns but they have to stay with them and they play just once a week (as I said it is a very small town, but they have a carnival)
I checked the classified, not all, but with the name of the horns I've been advised...so far nothing, but I'm keeping an eye open
I'll contact DJ kennedy, thanks
Meanwhile if anyone as a yamaha 354 or a king 606 that could be send to canada, let me know.

Christophe
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« Reply #11 on: Dec 20, 2017, 02:11PM »

There doesn't appear to be many brass retailers in Portugal!  Eurommusica in Lisbon appear to sell Yamaha YSL354, though they appear to have very little brass. Within Europe you could try Thomann in Germany (they do a lot of on-line sales, but I haven't dealt with them), or John Packer or Wessex Tubas in UK. The Rath-Packer trombones at John Packer are worth considering.
If you import from outside Europe, consider any import taxes you might incur.
   
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« Reply #12 on: Dec 21, 2017, 01:01PM »

Hi Stephen,
As you said, not many retailers in Portugal...Eurommusica is not having second hand and doesn't even put the price for the yamaha.
Thomann...not second hand either and I don't know what to think about their line as they don't really say where it is coming from (I suspect china..)
I checked John Packer...seems interesting even though at the moment a lot of them are not in stock
Importing...that's another one of my problem(the list is long ;-) ), here in Portugal they even tax you on secondhand, even gift, as soon as it come from US, the custom are being greedy...
I will see...
Thanks again for all the answers
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« Reply #13 on: Dec 21, 2017, 02:26PM »

Hi Stephen,
As you said, not many retailers in Portugal...Eurommusica is not having second hand and doesn't even put the price for the yamaha.
Thomann...not second hand either and I don't know what to think about their line as they don't really say where it is coming from (I suspect china..)
I checked John Packer...seems interesting even though at the moment a lot of them are not in stock
Importing...that's another one of my problem(the list is long ;-) ), here in Portugal they even tax you on secondhand, even gift, as soon as it come from US, the custom are being greedy...
I will see...
Thanks again for all the answers


Tax is the same in Sweden as in Portugal as we are both EU countries.

If you buy within EU then you just add shipping. Check out trombones from Great Britain before they leave EU. If you buy from US you first add shipping and then add about 31% extra on everything. That covers taxes, customs and the bank fee for converting money USD/EURO. It is not cheap for us to win ebay auctions.  We have to pay more, but used instruments are also more expensive in shops here compared to US so we have no better option really. Most interesting horns sell from US.
Unfortunately prices on ebay has increased and the dollar also went up by 30% against the SKR. I stopped buying from ebay (US) in the beginning of 2014. Recently this summer when the dollar got a little cheaper (10%) I did an exception and bought an used Elkhart Conn 62h from US. I had to pay a lot to win that. Unfortunately it did not play very well when it arrived here, but outcome was good. After a cheap repair it turned out to be a very good horn.

/Tom
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« Reply #14 on: Dec 21, 2017, 03:14PM »

Second-hand is very variable in UK. You have to be lucky to find a good private purchase, and most people would not want to ship outside UK. Stores will, but their prices are higher, they also will have serviced the instrument. Maybe worth travelling. Good luck
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« Reply #15 on: Dec 22, 2017, 12:39AM »

Second-hand is very variable in UK. You have to be lucky to find a good private purchase, and most people would not want to ship outside UK. Stores will, but their prices are higher, they also will have serviced the instrument. Maybe worth travelling. Good luck

Disagree with both parts of your statement...there are some very good horns available second hand in the Uk, but yes as with any purchase buyer beware is always advised...and many sellers do ship
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« Reply #16 on: Dec 25, 2017, 01:44PM »

Tom, from what I could gather from portuguese customs, 3,2% of custom tax plus 23% VAT. I will see. Still I find surprising that they tax on item price + shipping...might be just me seeing them greedy!
StephenKerry, Vegasbound, I have friends in UK who were looking for me...nothing much at least in my budget. Concerning shipping outside UK (or US), I have encounter both type of seller, the one willing to ship and the one just wanted to sell national...well, they probably both have their reasons

Apparently Santa thought I was a good guy this year, a very good friend of mine is in Vancouver at the moment and he found a King 606 from 1986, in hard case, without major dent in it and from war the seller said, it just need some slide O mix as it was stored for quite some time. Price seems really low, but the seller said that he wanted someone to enjoy it...we will see, I'm still believing in human nature.
It's coming with a 12C mouth piece, I will see if I change this as I'm quite a big person, but I'm already chuffed (but keeping my finger cross and hoping that it is as good as the seller said)

Thanks again for all the answer and info...no it is time to wait...

Christophe
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« Reply #17 on: Feb 12, 2018, 09:51AM »

Hi everyone,

The King 606 has finally arrived so I thought I would share the announcement here. From what I can see there is no major dent in the slide, it is in need of a cleaning and oiling. Seems also I need to change the felt bumper of the slide. Anyone has a clue about where to find them in Europe (Thomann seems to sell only sets of 3 which I don't think is what I need) Also I don't have a brass repair shop near me (closest is 3h30 drive away from me) so I was wondering if I can find the tool for changing those felt bumper or, but it might be a stupid idea, to make one, as far as I can see it is just a matter of finding the right size tube and then to cut the 'hook".
Anyway i should get the cleaning kit later next week so I still have to be patient, but at least I can practice free buzzing for now.

I would have post pictures but I still have to find how ;-)
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« Reply #18 on: Feb 12, 2018, 10:03AM »

Hi everyone,

The King 606 has finally arrived so I thought I would share the announcement here. From what I can see there is no major dent in the slide, it is in need of a cleaning and oiling. Seems also I need to change the felt bumper of the slide. Anyone has a clue about where to find them in Europe (Thomann seems to sell only sets of 3 which I don't think is what I need) Also I don't have a brass repair shop near me (closest is 3h30 drive away from me) so I was wondering if I can find the tool for changing those felt bumper or, but it might be a stupid idea, to make one, as far as I can see it is just a matter of finding the right size tube and then to cut the 'hook".
Anyway i should get the cleaning kit later next week so I still have to be patient, but at least I can practice free buzzing for now.

I would have post pictures but I still have to find how ;-)

If you have no repairshoop you need to do it yourself. I have used an O-ring instead if felt or you buy felt and use a scissor.

/Tom
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« Reply #19 on: Feb 12, 2018, 01:15PM »

Thanks Tom. I don't mind doing it myself but I was wondering about the tool needed for the job and how thick should be the felt, and is cork a possibility?
 
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« Reply #20 on: Feb 12, 2018, 01:40PM »

Slide bumpers can be cork, felts, rubber O-rings, or even springs (generally on Conn and King large bores).

Votaw Tool of Missouri stocks them and ships internationally.

You can make a tool to remove old bumpers out of a piece of tubing that you raise a burr to grab the old bumper.

Is the old bumper compressed?  Missing?  How to tell: if you engage the slide lock there is a lot of play in the slide.  But make sure that the slide lock is not loose.  Generally turn to tight, then back off about one turn.
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« Reply #21 on: Feb 12, 2018, 01:43PM »

Thanks Tom. I don't mind doing it myself but I was wondering about the tool needed for the job and how thick should be the felt, and is cork a possibility?

I would not use cork for that. An O-ring of the right size does the job, but it could be thicker than felt so you need to check that your slide lock still works.

/Tom
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« Reply #22 on: Feb 13, 2018, 03:08AM »

Slide bumpers can be cork, felts, rubber O-rings, or even springs (generally on Conn and King large bores).

Votaw Tool of Missouri stocks them and ships internationally.

You can make a tool to remove old bumpers out of a piece of tubing that you raise a burr to grab the old bumper.

Is the old bumper compressed?  Missing?  How to tell: if you engage the slide lock there is a lot of play in the slide.  But make sure that the slide lock is not loose.  Generally turn to tight, then back off about one turn.

When the slide lock is on there is about 3mm gap. The slide lock is not loose. I cannot really see if the old bumpers are missing or completely worn out, I will try to find a piece of tubing

Many thanks
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« Reply #23 on: Feb 13, 2018, 05:06AM »

Home Depot 1/2" rubber neoprene O-rings. 23 cents each.
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« Reply #24 on: Feb 14, 2018, 05:35AM »

i ship  to spain germany  austria  australia slovenia   new zealand
and can ship to  you  where ever  you are
 recommended  easy  players  --king  605 or  older  cleveland ///olds  special-ambassador =very durable
    these  are  lower  priced   because  many  are available
bigger  bore  --the  yamaha  352/354  --being  very very choosy  --the  354 especially  --many  have  been abused by students    --getzen  351  are  great
   conn  --director  =good  ==bundy -h a selmer
reynolds  emperor--very very  good  also  --
-------------
  king  modern 606  with nickle   outer  slide  ---yes
===================
    my  top  pick  for  you  --reynolds  from 50s  in nice slim case --most  kids  here in us 
   turn up their  nose  at  the  older   horns 
-----------  email=arthousetrombone@yahoo.com///donald j kennedy=facebook //pm here !!!!!!
cost shipped about  300  usd    ///more  cheep  =olds  ambassador  or  605   //with mouthpiece
also  need  cold  cream  //cleaning  rod ///often i ship  without   box --customs form =no problem
-----------------------------------
 see  page  on facebook
-----------
INTERGALACTIC TROMBONE ASSOCIATION

Tom, from what I could gather from portuguese customs, 3,2% of custom tax plus 23% VAT. I will see. Still I find surprising that they tax on item price + shipping...might be just me seeing them greedy!
StephenKerry, Vegasbound, I have friends in UK who were looking for me...nothing much at least in my budget. Concerning shipping outside UK (or US), I have encounter both type of seller, the one willing to ship and the one just wanted to sell national...well, they probably both have their reasons

Apparently Santa thought I was a good guy this year, a very good friend of mine is in Vancouver at the moment and he found a King 606 from 1986, in hard case, without major dent in it and from war the seller said, it just need some slide O mix as it was stored for quite some time. Price seems really low, but the seller said that he wanted someone to enjoy it...we will see, I'm still believing in human nature.
It's coming with a 12C mouth piece, I will see if I change this as I'm quite a big person, but I'm already chuffed (but keeping my finger cross and hoping that it is as good as the seller said)

Thanks again for all the answer and info...no it is time to wait...

Christophe
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