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Author Topic: Civl Forfeiture  (Read 802 times)
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robcat2075

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« on: Dec 20, 2017, 12:19PM »


Why become a criminal when you can steal money legally as a police officer?

Police stop a guy, then get a dog to say he has drugs in his car so they can search it.

No drugs, but he does have money and they threaten him with arrest unless he signs a form to let them take it.


State Steals Life-Savings from Innocent Musician
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Robert Holmén

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« Reply #1 on: Dec 20, 2017, 08:48PM »

Why become a criminal when you can steal money legally as a police officer?

Police stop a guy, then get a dog to say he has drugs in his car so they can search it.

No drugs, but he does have money and they threaten him with arrest unless he signs a form to let them take it.


State Steals Life-Savings from Innocent Musician

Civil forfeiture laws are absolutely an abomination. Opposition to them should be common ground between liberals and conservatives. Now Sessions is supporting them.
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« Reply #2 on: Dec 21, 2017, 06:23AM »

Wow! Amazed

This is a thing in the land of the free?

How is it the civil rights lawyers have not teamed up en masse to have this stricken?
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« Reply #3 on: Dec 21, 2017, 06:34AM »

This is one of the reasons you guys have the 2nd Amendment, right?
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Dan Hine

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« Reply #4 on: Dec 21, 2017, 06:36AM »

I agree, civil forfeiture is ridiculous.  Though I can't help but wonder how an adult would buy the implication that carrying cash is illegal.  I don't intend to be a "victim blamer" here but for $90k I'd sure as hell let them take me to jail so I can tell everyone I see that I was told carrying cash is illegal.

Still, it's crap and civil forfeiture does need to go away.  Just allows authority to prey on others.
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« Reply #5 on: Dec 21, 2017, 06:58AM »

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Why become a criminal when you can steal money legally as a police officer?
Or any government official.

Quote
but he does have money and they threaten him with arrest unless he signs a form to let them take it.

The government does this at least once a year.
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robcat2075

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« Reply #6 on: Dec 21, 2017, 09:16AM »

I agree, civil forfeiture is ridiculous.  Though I can't help but wonder how an adult would buy the implication that carrying cash is illegal.  I don't intend to be a "victim blamer" here but for $90k I'd sure as hell let them take me to jail so I can tell everyone I see that I was told carrying cash is illegal.

It's not illegal but it's a point of law that is not well-understood by the public.

Illegal to Carry $10,000 in Cash?

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However, if you are pulled over by a police officer with thousands of dollars in your vehicle, you may be asked to explain how and why you’re carrying so much money (ostensibly to uncover the trafficking of drugs and other contraband). And in many cases, law enforcement agents can seize large sums of cash and insist you provide proof you acquired the currency legally and do not intend to use it for illicit purposes. Legal justification for seizing money in that scenario is broad and complex, making it risky (even if not technically illegal) to transport large sums of cash.

How, on the side of the road, do you prove you do not intend to use the money for illicit purposes?

Also, what are the chances the police were completely honest and fair when they were pressuring him?

There's two or more of them with guns and a dog and a previously-rehearsed routine against one person who has been taken by surprise. The Supreme Court has said that police are allowed to lie when questioning someone.
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Robert Holmén

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Dan Hine

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« Reply #7 on: Dec 21, 2017, 09:32AM »



How, on the side of the road, do you prove you do not intend to use the money for illicit purposes?


You don't.  And this is why we see those "am I being detained" videos.  I wonder how many fewer vehicle stops there would be if the only way they could keep someone's property was if they ended up convicted of a charge?
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« Reply #8 on: Dec 21, 2017, 10:33AM »

You don't.  And this is why we see those "am I being detained" videos.  I wonder how many fewer vehicle stops there would be if the only way they could keep someone's property was if they ended up convicted of a charge?

Some states have already passed that law. It should be the law everywhere.
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Baron von Bone
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« Reply #9 on: Dec 21, 2017, 10:49AM »

This is one of the reasons you guys have the 2nd Amendment, right?

I assume you're being facetious ... ?
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« Reply #10 on: Dec 21, 2017, 11:22AM »

I wonder if anyone has ever been acquitted of shooting a cop at a traffic stop.  I'm going to guess not.
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Robert Holmén

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« Reply #11 on: Dec 21, 2017, 11:56AM »

$10,000 must be a magic number, because if you transfer that or more, it becomes targeted as well by the IRS.
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« Reply #12 on: Dec 21, 2017, 12:21PM »

It seems to me that if someone had assets seized via civil forfeiture would get his case heard by the supreme court, things could change. That this sort of thing is allowed is beyond wrong.

A few years ago, a Hispanic guy was pulled over in a nice fancy car coming down into Texas from Oklahoma. While that stretch of I-35 is/was known as a drug corridor, the police had no cause to legally stop him.

The brought in drug dogs which alerted the cops to the wheel wells. They found a huge amount of money stashed there. No drugs were located.

Was it suspicious that someone would carry money there? Definitely. Was it illegal. No.

But they seized it. The guy was released with no charges filed.

Not cool.
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robcat2075

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« Reply #13 on: Dec 21, 2017, 01:19PM »

It seems to me that if someone had assets seized via civil forfeiture would get his case heard by the supreme court, things could change.

You're really not going to like this...

Why Cops Can Seize Your Property Even If You're Innocent

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In a Philadelphia suburb last year, cops seized the home of a couple who had never been charged with a crime. Their son had allegedly dealt heroin out of the house, and cops said the home could be seized because it was tied to illegal activities.

Markela and Chris Sourovelis — who owned the house — said they had no knowledge of their son's alleged drug deals, as CNN reported. However, as unbelievable as it sounds, the Supreme Court has ruled it's Constitutional for the government to take away your property even if you're innocent.


Quote
That court has issued a number of rulings upholding civil forfeiture, including one in 1996 that said seizure of an innocent person's property didn't violate due process. In that case, a Michigan woman named Tina Bennis fought the seizure of her car after her husband was caught having sex with a prostitute in it.

For her part, Bennis argued she had no clue her husband would use the car for the illegal tryst. The high court ruled that didn't matter, citing the following case law:

It has long been settled that statutory forfeitures of property entrusted by the innocent owner or lienor to another who uses it in violation of the revenue laws of the United States is not a violation of the due process clause of the Fifth Amendment.

It's perfectly legal if the state want to make it legal. These civil forfeiture laws are always promoted by police as a tool for getting "tough on crime" and what state legislator wants to be called "soft on crime"?

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Robert Holmén

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« Reply #14 on: Dec 21, 2017, 01:33PM »

These civil forfeiture laws are always promoted by police as a tool for getting "tough on crime" and what state legislator wants to be called "soft on crime"?



Personally, I'd love to be "tough on not being an A$$hole."  Fortunately, I do live in a state that requires a criminal conviction before forfeiture.
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« Reply #15 on: Dec 21, 2017, 04:31PM »

$10,000 must be a magic number, because if you transfer that or more, it becomes targeted as well by the IRS.

An interesting sub-category to this is 'structuring deposits'.

Any deposit of $10,000 or more in cash has to be reported to the IRS. The purpose of this is to track drug money and terrorist funding.

But here's the trouble:
'Structuring Deposits' is having repeated withdrawals or deposits that fall just short of this, to avoid the reporting. Structuring is considered a form of money laundering. It's what they charged your favorite drug addict (Rush Limbaugh) with because he was hiding his drug cash withdrawals. So if you have repeated deposits withdrawals in the $8-9K range, the bank has to notify the federal gov't. Even if there's a perfectly good explanation of this, they can just take all the money out of your checking account. I'm not kidding.

The bad thing is that the bank isn't allowed to tell you this! They'd be 'tipping you off', even if they knew you had a good reason for it. Next thing you know, your bank account is cleaned out. If you can account for all the money in those deposits by good accounting and legal means, they might offer you back fifty cents on the dollar. Otherwise, you're hiring lawyers and fighting the IRS.

Two stories stick in my mind about this. One was a lady who owned a quick service restaurant. Her mother told her that people who work at the bank hate getting $10K+ deposits because they don't like filling out the paperwork, so she would deposit less than that and hold back a day if it went over. The bank wasn't legally allowed to warn her against it, and she lost $30,000 for no reason at all. There was no reason to suspect illegal activity, and she was never arrested, charged or convicted of anything. They just took her money and kept it.

The other one was an old guy who look at his business insurance and figured out that it covered a maximum of $10,000 in cash. So whenever it got close, he took it to the bank. They took his money, too.

Bottomline (as you spell it) the gov't shouldn't be able to confiscate your possessions in the absence of a conviction. But it's commonplace.
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« Reply #16 on: Dec 21, 2017, 05:36PM »

Wire transfer.Easy!
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Piano man
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« Reply #17 on: Dec 21, 2017, 07:01PM »

Wire transfer.Easy!

You must have never owned a business. I own a business that does a substantial amount of cash sales, completely legitimate. You have to deposit the actual cash, one way or another, unless you're going to burn it as fuel.
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« Reply #18 on: Dec 22, 2017, 04:23AM »


I assume you're being facetious ... ?

Deadly serious. The 5 Amendment says

"...nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation."

I'd love to see the hocus pocus BS the Supreme Court used to wriggle round that. I could use a good laugh.

Surely I don't need to remind all the Americans here that one of the main reasons for going to the great trouble of creating the USA was enjoying the fruits of one's own labours.

And a passage from the Oath of Allegiance, which I assume US police officers take

I will support and defend the Constitution and laws of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic.

Is this a duty incumbent on all USA citizens? As a great admirer of the founding principles of the USA, I hope it is, if only morally. The domestic enemy might be Supreme Court officials who Humpty Dumpty crystal clear constitutional provisions into the exact opposite. Or policemen who steal my stuff, and give me a receipt as "just compensation."
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« Reply #19 on: Dec 22, 2017, 04:55AM »

The fourth amendment protects us against illegal Search and Seizure which in this case should apply, but finding a lawyer who would want to pursue this might prove difficult.  I don't think anyone's property should be forfeited without a conviction of a crime, and a hearing from a judge.  I think the police can hold property as evidence, but if the charges are dropped, or they fail to convict the property owner they should get their stuff back.  We should definately amend the law to keep law enforcement from arbitrarily taking peoples property without due process of law.
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« Reply #20 on: Dec 22, 2017, 06:47AM »

This is one of the reasons you guys have the 2nd Amendment, right?
I assume you're being facetious ... ?
Deadly serious. The 5 Amendment says ...

Ah, okay ... that makes sense.
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« Reply #21 on: Dec 24, 2017, 03:14AM »

I assume you're being facetious ... ?Deadly serious. The 5 Amendment says ...  
Ah, okay ... that makes sense.

Ok genius, so how do you enforce your 5th Amendment right against an armed agent of the state intent on violating it?

The courts offer no recourse, as we've already seen in the perverse SC decision about civil forfeiture and the 5th Amendment. Your franchise lets you vote for someone who will change the law: good luck with that. Freedom of speech allows you to write a sternly worded letter of complaint to the local newspaper, or to your congressman for him to ignore.

The only remaining counterbalance to improperly used government force is force of your own.

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« Reply #22 on: Dec 24, 2017, 04:49AM »

Ok genius, so how do you enforce your 5th Amendment right against an armed agent of the state intent on violating it?

The courts offer no recourse, as we've already seen in the perverse SC decision about civil forfeiture and the 5th Amendment. Your franchise lets you vote for someone who will change the law: good luck with that. Freedom of speech allows you to write a sternly worded letter of complaint to the local newspaper, or to your congressman for him to ignore.

The only remaining counterbalance to improperly used government force is force of your own.


Threatening armed resistance to an officer of the law is a guarantee to become "dead right" (you were right, but you're dead).  Not a solution.  Ask Cliven Bundy, who's in prison for armed resistance to Federal agents.
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« Reply #23 on: Dec 24, 2017, 09:08AM »

In the history of the US there's never been a case of armed resistance getting an unpopular law rolled back.

The Whiskey Rebellion failed.  The unpopular whiskey taxes only got repealed years later by electing different people to Congress.


I think the Dems should run on ending Civil forfeiture.
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« Reply #24 on: Dec 24, 2017, 09:29AM »

I think the Dems should run on ending Civil forfeiture.

I don't think they have any real incentive. Their rich donors are not the ones being abused by forfeiture laws.
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« Reply #25 on: Dec 25, 2017, 06:22AM »

Threatening armed resistance to an officer of the law is a guarantee to become "dead right" (you were right, but you're dead).  Not a solution.  Ask Cliven Bundy, who's in prison for armed resistance to Federal agents.
Agreed, I don't care how well armed you are and how well prepared, armed resistance against a government with access to the most advanced weaponry in the world is futile, and not going to result in anything good.  We've seen this tried multiple times in US history and the government always wins.  All they really have to do is wait you out, turn off the water and utilities, and you'll run out of food and water eventually. The second amendment wasn't designed for armed resistance by an individual, but for the forming of State guards, and militias to protect the State from an overreaching federal government. Even the attempt by states to leave the Union in the form of our Civil War failed to result in the desired outcome, and cost a large toll in human life on both sides.  Armed resistance against the federal government by an individual, or small group of individuals (or even the State) government is a total exercise in futility and is only going to result in unnecessary bloodshed.   
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